Let me tell you about the 325 WSM .....

[86er]

I recently asked for experiences with this cartridge on the forum but nobody responded. I have been looking into it for a lot of reasons. I have used a 7mm Rem Mag for over 25 yrs as my only centerfire rifle from everything from woodchucks to water buffalo. It worked extremely well for me. I used 160 gr Nosler Partitions at 2900 fps exclusively. However, I have always felt the level of power was marginal for elk-moose-large bears - large plains game. Another complexity is that I insist on a rifle with a tang safety (because of extensive training and familiarization with such) or a lever gun with exposed hammer. For years I wished someone would create such a cartridge. Ideally I wanted at least 20% more weight and diameter with at least the same velocity and trajectory, and an insignificant increase in recoil. I've seen the conclusive difference in .429 bullets compared to .452 bullets of the same weight and speed. They both result in dead animals but the visible effect was greater and the onset of death quicker by a noticable margin with the .452's. If you increase the weight of the .452 and or the velocity the visible effect was even more pronounced. Essentially I wanted this concept to apply to a centerfire rifle cartridge that would up the 7mm RM. I tried an outstanding 318 WR caliber rifle, but the velocity was less than I would have like for the trajectory I wanted to achieve. The 338 Win mag is just too much recoil for my repaired shoulder to handle. 350 Rem Mag and such were too slow for what I wanted. Along comes the 325 Winchester Short Magnum in 2005. Well known internet gun writer Chuck Hawk dismissed the cartridge as "a smallbore" not making the .33 diameter to be considered medium bore. Several writers, Chuck included went on and on about the "obnoxious recoil". At least two people stated it was no better than the regular 300 WSM in lethal performance. Chuck called the 325 name intentionally misleading, but then went on to say it is a .315 bore. Well it might be called that in England but in the USA it would be referred to as a .323 bore or 8mm. Who's intentionally misleading, Chuck? Now here we have a cartridge that fires a 200 grain bullet of .323 diameter at the same speed the 7mm Rem Mag fires a 160 gr and with an increase in recoil of only 2.2 ft. lbs and 1.6 fps over the 7mm RM in a rifle of the same weight. Oh, and it comes in several rifles with a tang safety like the Savage Classic and the Browning A Bolt and X bolt, along with a lever gun, the BLR (that was intentionally kept the same weight as the bolt guns so the perceived recoil would not increase in the BLR over the bolt guns). This cartridge can also get its full velocity with a 23" barrel (as opposed to the often stated velocity of a 338 Win Mag that comes from a 26" bbl). With a 200 gr bullet the 325 WSM equals in weight and velocity the 338 Win Mag with the same bullet except for the 325 being .015 diameter smaller than the 338 WM. The 325 WSM is .039 larger diameter than the 7mm (.284), greater than the .429/.452 difference and .308/.338 difference. The 325 WSM can handle 180 grain "deer" bullets reloaded to any velocity from 2650 -3200 fps. It can also handle 225 gr bullets up to 2750 fps. However, for my own purposes and intentions the 200 grain bullet at 2950 fps fits the bill perfectly. Finally, a cartrige that is (on paper) everything I have wanted. So why did/does the 325 WSM get all the bad press? On any forum or chat room where people are actually using the 325 it is very common to hear that they would never switch back to whatever they used previously. It is also very common to read reports of noticable increased effect on animals, particularly large animals. Not surprisingly, most of the folks knocking the 325 WSM clearly state they have never personally used one or killed game with it. I think I am going to give one a try in the Browning X -Bolt Limited Rocky Mt. Elk rifle and/or the BLR Take-Down with pistol grip. There are not a lot of 8mm bullets to choose from but the Nosler Accubond and Barnes TSX in 200 grain weight should do everything I ask of them. From point blank to 400 yards - my personal hunting limits - I don't expect it to be a howitzer but I think I will notice more "power" and effect on the bigger animals.

[mod71alaska]

I think the .325 WSM has been disparaged as a marketing "gimmick cartridge" mostly by those who haven't taken game with it or are ardent traditionalists. I personally have not used this cartridge (I've hunted with a .338 WM for too many years) but everyone I've come across who has taken game with the .325 WSM speaks very highly it. So, I'm interested in what conclusions you come to, Joe.

[Dave]

That round makes a lot of sense. Kind of a hot rod 35 Remington. Not quite a .358 diameter bullet but not that far off.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

If Remington had commercialized it, you would be referring to it as the 8mm RSM. In any case, it sounds like one of those cartridges in the sweet spot. Interesting to see Browning chambering it in their BLR Lightweight.

[BenT]

I traded off my BLR in 7mm mag for a 300 WSM when it first came out. I wished I would of waited for the 325 WSM just to check it out. I got rid of the 300WSM because it was a too light of a gun for that kind of recoil. Plus I really wasn't shooting over 150 yards so I really didn't need a Magnum anything. With some consouling I am now magnum free. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to try the 325 WSM. I think they could of marketed it better as a 32 special short mag. Just get a rifle with some weight. I believe the takedown BLR 's add a pound which is good. I say go for it Joe !

By the way I traded off my BLR 300 WSM for a NIB Ruger 77 International in 243 even up. It was really shiney and I couldn't resist.

[Marlin32]

I didn't respond as I have never fired one but too have looked extensively at this cartridge.
I huge fan of 8mm. Was thrilled when Win came out with this round, but most of the stuff I have read talks of pretty stiff recoil. All charts I look at put it waaayyy past anything I shoot. Chuck Hawks table shows something like 37 in recoil energy!!!
Another chart I saw had it at close to 33, and that was a 1# heavier gun.

It was enough to turn my attention somewhere else, and that is why I went with the Marlin 338ME

I wish I had the money as I would buy the BLR in 325 and shoot it myself. Only way to know.
I don't reload for rifle right now but I am going to, so the 325 still interests me for the same reasons is does 86'er. Can load a good deer bullet, or for larger game and for Joe, who knows what animal.

I hope you buy it in the BLR, I will keep close tabs on how you like it.

Interesting as I was reading up on the 318WR this weekend!! Unfortuneately, not common in the guns I could afford.

[AJMD429]

Thanks for the educational post. I've no firearms in that class, but enjoy reading about their potential.

[CowboyTutt]

86er, Mic McPherson once suggested I get a BLR in 325 WSM. I figure thats a good recommendation! -Tutt

[Old Savage]

Joe, you always think these things out pretty carefully. One of the measures of comparison you might look at to come to the same conclusions you already have is cross sectional area or frontal area of the bullet. It magnifies some differences.

[Streetstar]

Dude, you have more real world experience than i will have in several lifetimes with these things, so if you like the cartridge, I'm gonna listen


Last year was the "year of the 45/70" for me, but i was going 300 mag this year. (i get bored carrying the same rifle year after year, and i want to give every one of them a day in the woods at some point ) ----- I will probably stick with the .300 this year as it is sighted in and ready to go with small piles of its favorite loads, but the .325 does sound interesting m and by your description, kicks less than my 300 Weatherby

[375hh1973]

Interesting timing of your post. I had the opportunity to shoot one of those .325s at the range last week. I was there shooting my 7mm STW Sako SS/Syn and the guy next to me was shooting a Browning A-Bolt in .325. We started talking during a target-check and I asked him how he liked it. He said that he loved it. He had always hunted with 7mm rem mags and .30-06s and wanted to step up in power, no reason just wanted one. I asked if he minded if I could shoot it, he said not a problem as long as he got to shoot my 7mm STW. I am a big A-Bolt fan, having a SS/Syn in .25/06. His .325 was a walnut/blue model with a Leupold VX3 3.5-10 scope. I fired a 3-shot group that was right around 1.25". This was with factory 200 gr ammo. Recoil was not harsh at all, in my opinion, about like a .300 mag. I would certainly consider a .325 wsm when I go to fill in the gap between my 7mm STW and .375HH. Ammo seems a bit pricey but RCBS makes dies, so that excuse for not buying one just went away!

[BenT]

Joe , over at shootersforum somebody is selling dies and once fired 325 brass for $40 shipped.

[olyinaz]

Well you've thought this out very carefully so I've not much to add other than to mention that these short magnums are supposed to be very efficient and comparatively frugal with powder no? At the end of the day that might matter as well because it could help to keep the cost of shooting it down a bit but see caveat below.

The other thing that came to mind was to ask if there is another, more commonly available, chambering that if loaded down a bit would do relatively the same thing? A 200grain projectile at 2950fps out the .338 Lapua or Weatherby .340 for example. The reason I raise that issue is because I'm not sure the .325 WSM survives long term but I could be wrong about that.

Lastly, I'm not showing 200gr/2950fps as max velocity in my two manuals (Speer & Lyman) with the .325 WSM but more like 2850 and that is maximum indeed. I realize that Winchester catalogs their Accubond at 2950fps while Nosler lists their 200gr factory offering at 2900fps. I find these stats interesting and I have to ask if you are confident that 2950 is achievable and if so with any degree of accuracy?

Just food for thought!

Best,
Oly

[CowboyTutt]

Barnes #4 seems to confirm 86er's velocities. However the picture shows a cartridge with a very short neck. Any problems with throat erosion with these because of the short neck???

-Tutt

[Dave James]

When I was hanging out and learning from Col. Charlie he all ways talked about his love for the 8mm, sounds to me its close to the 33 winchester,another fine round from what I have heard from those who have used it on black bear and such , they like it,they say its as good as the 06 and the 8x57 but in a trimer package

[olyinaz]

Barnes #4 seems to confirm 86er's velocities.

Yes, with Win760 powder and at maximum recommended exactly 2950. I guess what I'm saying is that if 2950 was fat in the middle of a loading's range I'd count on it, but thus far only one powder/bullet I've seen and at full maximum? Again I must ask how can one know that particular loading will shoot?

Go here and pull the load data for .325WSM: http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Now go back and pull the data for 8mm Rem. Magnum and with a 200gr projectile you get a solid 2950 but only just, and the same thing goes for .338 Win Mag.

I'm just not getting a comfortable feeling regarding what 86er wishes to accomplish and I hope that's why he brought it up (In other words, I'm not trying to be a stinker). Nevertheless, it looks like a fine chambering that sits in a bit of a void in the world of cartridges and I like that as opposed to many of these new chamberings that seem like an attempt to reinvent the wheel or an answer to a question nobody asked.

Cheers,
Oly

[86er]

I got to attend a Browning end of year "Try our guns" program along with my friend. I tried an A-Bolt and and X-Bolt in 325 WSM. I saved myself a lot of money. Neither one fit me right with the standard stock configuration. There is no way I could shoot one instinctively. The gunsmith there showed me a Gold Medallion with a monte carlo type high-grade stock (but it was in 270 WSM). It handled beautifully and I like it. Neither the X or A bolt kicked noticably more than my 7mm Rem Mag when in 325 WSM. I did not shoot the rifle that was in 270 WSM. I did use a BLR in 325 (laminate stock and pistol grip). The recoil was more upward thrust and less straight back. I didn't care for the recoil sensation in the BLR. The gunsmith pointed me to the Savage 114 American Classic which I've found for sale for a hair over $500 (compared to the GM Browning at $1200+). I am going to OK to try a Savage and I am looking for a GM Browning to try. BTW, the Winchester XP3 160gr Accubond clocked 2900 fps even for a 3 shot average measured 6 feet from the muzzle. Only 60 fps less than advertised velocity.

[mod71alaska]

Joe, I don't hear you mention using a Winchester Model 70 "Classic" in .325 WSM. What are your thoughts there?

[86er]

I don't dislike the Winchester rifles, I'm just so accustumed to the tang safety (available on other rifles) that I favor it.

[Markbo]

If the 7mm has been your 25 year favorite on animals up to water buffalo I can't imagine you will be disappointed with the 325 WSM. All the nay-sayers said similar things about other short/fats and indeed the .223 WSSM may disapear soon, but I have had great success with several different ones, though not the 325. I don't hunt anything bigger than the .300 WSM can dispatch cleanly.

[KirkD]

Very interesting analysis. One aspect that you didn't cover, but which I was interested in is the pressure differences between the 325 WSM and, say, the 7mm RM. Would the pressure be high enough to erode the throat area with x number of shots? or is that even an issue. I know very little about those sorts of things for these type cartridges; I just shoot the old ones.

[dkmlever]

My buddy got one in a Browning A-bolt. Asked me to sight it in for him.....1st shot cracked my brow, blood coming down my face.
Turns out the guy who mounted the scope set it back to far, and as 86er says the Brownings have short stocks on them they really do not fit me well.
This Saturday he is bringing it up to try to sight it in again after remounting the scope forward and with lower rings (a more natural site picture for him)....he can go first this time!

[stinson]

I used to think that the BLRs were not very attractive leverguns, but when they came out with the stainless takedown .325 last year, I had to have one, and now I'm a convert. It's an amazing rifle: light, well-balanced, very accurate (despite the trigger), corrosion-resistant, easy to pack, and strong as a bank vault. As for the .325 WSM, I believe that it is a far better and more useful round than most gun writers have given it credit. The only reason for short mag development generally, in my opinion, is to build lighter and more compact rifles. That goes for the .325 as well, but it also occupies a new niche between the .300 mags and the .338 mags, and I believe that this is a useful category. It gives you more power than the .300s, but with less recoil than the .338s. Frankly, I can't see much difference in the recoil between the .300 WSM and the .325 WSM. I like this cartridge and the Browning rifle (my first) so much that I just bought a Browning A-Bolt Titanium in .325, as my mountain rifle. It weighs 5 lb, 13 oz bare, a little over 6.5 lbs with a Leupold compact scope. Yeah, it recoils some at the bench, so I use a PAST pad. In the field, of course, you never notice recoil.

The one caveat about the .325 WSM: it really is a handloader's caliber. Factory rounds are expensive (what's new), and selection is limited. The selection of 8mm bullets is not terrific, but it's adequate. I've pretty much settled on the Barnes 200 grain TSX for hunting, including the big bears, but I also have some cheap bullets, like the 185 grain Remingtons, for practice. If availability of cases becomes a problem, the abundant .300 WSM case can be necked up.

I really hope that more folks take a second look at this round. It deserves more respect than it has received.