Lee factory crimp die

RJS · Post by **RJS** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:26 pm

First off let me say hey to everybody!
I'm fairly new to reloading, only been loading a year or so. My problem is crimping jacketed bullets using the Lee fcd. The fcd seems to force the bullet down into the case as it crimps ,lowering my coal. It's not cartridge specific as it happens in 32H&R, .357mag and .44mag.
I also use Ranier plated and they crimp just fine , seems to be anything with a canelure.
Just wondering if anyone has had this problem,or a solution for it.
Thanks in advance,
Ron

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:28 pm

1st off Welcome to the Forum. I use the LFCD myself, and have no problems whatsoever. Do you have it set correctly? Read the directions again thats where I would start off 1st. Otherwise maybe you have it sett too tight also

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:53 pm

If the location of the curvature of the cannelure indentation matches the shoulders of the collet of the crimp, at the seating depth you have chosen, it can squirt the bullet a little further into the case, as the crimp is applied. Usually this doesn't happen unless the case is a little (relatively) loose on the bullet anyway, but rarely have I seen a 44 mag die that didn't size sufficiently to not allow this. If you are talking only 5 or 10 thou, I wouldn't worry about it.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:02 pm

1st: I'll agree with Bigahh, Welcome to the Forum!

Next I'll sorta agree: Is the die adjusted for the cartridge and bullet you're using. You might also check neck tension, for that could be allowing the bullet to slide down slightly as you apply the collet crimp.

Lastly, I'll disagree: I think the majority of the value in the Lee Factory Crimp Die is the income it provides to Lee.

The reason I handload is to build better ammo than the factories produce. The reason factory use a collect crimp is to avoid the tight tolerances and hand feel a good rollcrimp needs in order to reduce the number of rejects. And we all know that handwork exceeds machine work in all industries.

Not that I'm opinionated or anything.

I'll try one when Lee sees fit to send me one to see if I build better ammo with it over my carefully rollcrimped ammo.

Suggested reading: Crimp Die: rolled or tapered? And: Proper Rollcrimp Adjustment

Or, I could be all wet!

Marlin .35 · Post by **Marlin .35** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:07 pm

I use the Lee FCD on all my pistol cartridges. Have neve had a problem. I think you have forced the die to miss the col. Back off try a cartridge and bullet and then make your changes. A little at a time. Art

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:07 pm

I agree with Griff; the Lee FCD is the lazy guy's (includes me) "easy way out", for MOST cartridges. No critical trimming etc. There are a few that the Lee saves the day. The 348 for one. That *** has a tendency to buckle the shoulder when trying to crimp properly, even when seating and crimping separately. Sometimes you can't even see the buckle but it will surely stop the round from entering the chamber. I think I have bought 6 sets of 348 dies to learn that lesson. The Lee did away with all that. so it does have some redeeming qualities. I hate the dang thing for pistol cartridges. I want my bullets sized as I wish, I don't want the stupid die doing it again.

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:07 am

Yeah, the Lee three die pistol set works OK for me now that I learned how to properly. It gave me fits while seating and roll crimping at the "same" time.

I wasn't going to go and buy another die that does what the one I have does. Does.

I have a LFCD for the .30-30 cases I load, but I still cut them to the same length and have never had a problem.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:59 am

Welcome aboard! I'm with the rest - in that the Lee FCD crimps inward and NOT down - so check your setup. My FCD's all work excellent and am sure your's will too once properly adjusted.

RJS · Post by **RJS** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:34 am

Thank You all, I had figured it was operator error. I'll start over and try using the seating die to crimp. Thank You for the links Griff ,excellent threads!
Thanks again,
Ron

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:09 am

Bigahh, that's a really neat pic in your avitar! jd45

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:56 am

My impressions of the Lee FCD: http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts ... W=J+Miller .

Joe

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:08 pm

I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for my .30-30, .30-06, and .444 Marlin rounds. They work well and I haven't had any problems using them.

I notice a couple of guys in this thread have knocked the LFCDs but haven't used them. Not very subjective or fair to the LFCDs. Sorta makes their opinion useless.

Pepe Ray · Post by **Pepe Ray** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:17 pm

Seems we're still having the same old miscommunication Problem.
The poster was asking about a FCD for a handgun/straightwall/ ctg.
Several of respondents are touting the FCD's for rifle/bottleneck ctgs.
NOT THE SAME. Two different dies entirely.
I've been trying to think of a simple acronym for each to help us in our discussions. Because of the exceptions. such as the straight wall 38-55/375W having a rifle/bottleneck type FCD, There will probably be some disagreement, but here goes.
FCD's for handgun/pistol/revolver = FCD/P
FCD's for rifle/bottleneck ctgs. = FCD/R
Will this work?
Respectfully submitted for your consideration,
Pepe Ray

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:26 pm

Just for my curiosity, did anybody actually read the post I linked to?

Joe

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:13 pm

J Miller wrote:Just for my curiosity, did anybody actually read the post I linked to?

Joe

I DID JOSE, AND IT WAS RIGHT ON THE MONEY. THE LEE FCD FOR PISTOL CARTRIDGES IS A PRETTY SILLY PIECE OF EQUIPMENT.

ON THE OTHER HAND I HAVE LEE FCD'S FOR ALL MY RIFLE CARTRIDGES NEEDING A CRIMP; 30-30, 32SPL, 38-55 ETC. WOULDN'T WANT TO GET ALONG WITHOUT IT FOR THE RIFLE CARTRIDGES.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:14 pm

J Miller wrote:Just for my curiosity, did anybody actually read the post I linked to?

Joe

Yup.
The pistol ones are pretty much a roll crimp, but somehow they dont crush cases as easy. I'v used them on 357's I knew werent the same they all go thru. I know I'da crumpled some or left some uncrimped with the seater/crimp. So, I guess its a lazy guys tool if its used that way.

Mostly I use the to seat/crimp in two operations. I still watch case length & the FCD's work great. They come with most Lee Die sets I buy anyway & when they dont I get one if I can. I like them.

Mike S. · Post by **Mike S.** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:26 pm

J Miller wrote:Just for my curiosity, did anybody actually read the post I linked to?

Joe

Yup, nice work Joe. I've wondered the same thing about why a sizer ring is needed in it too.
I do have a Lee collet crimp die for my 38-55 that gets used on every round.

Mike

mousegun · Post by **mousegun** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:28 pm

J Miller wrote:Just for my curiosity, did anybody actually read the post I linked to?

Joe

Yep, sure did. Just had to reactivate my account to add this:

Several years ago I bought Lee four die pistol sets for 44Mag and 45LC. I shoot cast bullets. The 44Mag pistol throats slug out at .430-.431 and the Marlin 1894H slugs out at .4315. Seating cast bullets (429421 & Lee C430-310R) and passing 'em through the FCD made me think that carbide ring might just be squishing 'em down. Normally the Lee bullet is fired as cast at .4305-.431 and the Lyman is sized to .431 (WW + 2% Sn). I backed off the crimping and ran some bulleted cases through the die, and sure enough, the pulled bullets measured .429! When I started using the FCD I got light leading; not real bad, but it was persistent, and I didn't have it before.

I sent the 44 die back to Lee with instructions to open the carbide collar up by .002". Came back in less than two weeks and now no longer changes cast bullet diameters.

Why even do this when the seating die has a crimp groove? Personally, I have trouble getting consistent crimps with cast bullets without using a separate crimp die. Seems to be simpler to have two adjustments in two different dies rather than interacting adjustments in one, especially when loading two different bullet styles.

However, YMMV

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:14 pm

There is one use for the LFCD/P that I did not include in my post referenced above. I found this out later.

I collect, scrounge, beg, trade, and acquire in any way possible .45 Colt balloon head cases. Then I use them for black powder loads and other loads too sometimes.

But, the problem with balloon head cases is when you shoot them the entire case right down to the rim expands. This sometimes makes it impossible to get the case in a standard shell holder on the extreme end and when they will fit in the shell holder and size, you always end up with a big bulge at the case head where the sizer die just cannot get to.

Well, one day sitting in front of my newly acquired Bonanza Co-Ax press the

struck.
I took a Lee universal shell holder ( they are slightly smaller in OD than every body else's ) and inverted it on the universal jaws of the Co-Ax press, took the FCD and slid it into the die slot and then ran the entire balloon head case into the FCD. Sized it to SAAMI max specs all the way to the rim. Pulled the FCD out, flipped it upside down ( something not easily done with a standard press ) and using a piece of dowel rod pushed the case out. COOL.
After sizing it in the FCD, full sizing it in my standard steel die gave me a normal looking well sized, but not over sized balloon head case.

See, I do have a use for the Lee FCD

..

Any body got any .45 Colt balloon head cases they wanna get rid of?

Joe

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:31 pm

Joe, I just read your link and it cinched my postion on the LFCD for pistols.

The seat and crimp works ok for me, as I'm not loading anything beyond "standard" .357mag.

And I offer a correction: The Lee crimp doe I use for the .30-30 is a collet style die, not a roll or taper crimp.
Well, I guess technically it IS a taper, but still a collet die.
It works great.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:57 pm

Scott,

I referenced the fact that I now have a LFCD for the 30-30 in the post I wrote. At the time I hadn't had a chance to use it yet. I've since crimped around 150 rounds with it. Now I need to change my procedure and crimp some more differently with it, then shoot them to see how if any different the roll crimped ammo is than the LFCD ammo.

Then I'll update my post.

Joe

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:10 pm

In response to those fellows that suggest a roll crimp is the way to go ....

I use the built in roll crimp in the bullet seating die except when I'm using large bullets in a tight chamber. I have an old '73 that shoots .431" bullets best, but it is so tight with those oversize bullets that any roll crimp capable of holding the bullets in place in the tubular magazine causes a very slight bulge in the case at the crimp. You can't really see it but when you try to chamber it, it is very tight and if you eject the cartridge, you can see where the bulge has rubbed. Same thing for one of my 38-55's. I bought a LFCD for both cartridges and what a difference that made. I roll crimp everything else.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:29 pm

Big fan of the collet type of the Lee FCD. Not a fan of the pistol FCD. If one desires a collet type FCD for a "pistol" cartridge Lee can make it as long as the case is at least 1.285" (.44 Mag., .45 Colt, etc..) 1886.

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:57 pm

Joe, maybe you could chrony the results? I've always wondered how it affects the velocity.

I do know this, though: After I started crimping the .30-30 rounds, my groups went from a crumby 4-5" or so at 100yds to around 2-1/2".
More even presures, more consistant.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:02 pm

Modoc ED wrote:I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for my .30-30, .30-06, and .444 Marlin rounds. They work well and I haven't had any problems using them.
I notice a couple of guys in this thread have knocked the LFCDs but haven't used them. Not very subjective or fair to the LFCDs. Sorta makes their opinion useless.

You might be right. However, and I said so, I learned "the old-fashioned way". And admitted to having ruined my fair share of brass learning about the proper way to adjust my seat/crimp dies. I wouldn't, nor I think, actually say, it was useless, for I am sure it may have its uses. However, I've never found the NEED to buy one. It may take me longer to get my press adjusted and ready to run, but... the tinkering and such is all part of the process for me. However, I don't believe my opinion is "useless", as the "old fashioned way" still works!

See the following: LFDC/R vs Roll Crimp Test.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:32 pm

I hear you, Griff. If it wasn't for oversize bullets in undersized chambers in the odd rifle, I wouldn't see any need for the LFCD.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:44 am

Griff wrote:You might be right. However, and I said so, I learned "the old-fashioned way". And admitted to having ruined my fair share of brass learning about the proper way to adjust my seat/crimp dies. I wouldn't, nor I think, actually say, it was useless, for I am sure it may have its uses. However, I've never found the NEED to buy one. It may take me longer to get my press adjusted and ready to run, but... the tinkering and such is all part of the process for me. However, I don't believe my opinion is "useless", as the "old fashioned way" still works!

Griff -

I fear my use of the word "useless" was too harsh. Not meant to be that way. Perhaps the word "tainted" may have been more appropriate.

I agree with you that the "old fashioned way" (no matter what the application ) is still valid and sometimes reigns as the best way.

I guess my point is -- is that if someone (myself included) is going to give an opinion as to the effectiveness of something mechanical, it is best if they give that opinion based on actual hands-on experience.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:53 pm

Scott,

I'd love to chronograph those loads. But I don't have a chronograph. If I can hook up with someone who has one I plan on it. Other wise it will be accuracy tests only.

Not only that but I'll be doing this with a unproven pre-64 carbine. I don't even know where it will shoot at 100 yards.

Joe

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:04 pm

J Miller wrote:Scott,

I'd love to chronograph those loads. But I don't have a chronograph. If I can hook up with someone who has one I plan on it. Other wise it will be accuracy tests only.

Not only that but I'll be doing this with a unproven pre-64 carbine. I don't even know where it will shoot at 100 yards.

Joe

You know Joe, I don't have a chronograph either and I've been sitting here reading this thread and others this AM and am wondering why I don't have one. I am going to remedy that soon and get one. Afterall, in the scheme of things, as pertains to reloading, the cost of a chronograph is pretty inexpensive.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:18 pm

Ed,

I've never purchased one because of several reasons:

A- I usually follow published loading data that matches factory loads as close as possible. I do not experiment with loads unless I have some published data to start with.

B- I reload to shoot, I don't want to spend all my time experimenting. I look for an accurate load that's full power for the cartridge I'm loading and stick with it.

C- I carry enough junk with me to the range. I don't need any more clutter.

D- Until recently they cost too much for me.

I may break down and buy one, but for the way I shoot and load, I honestly would not need one often enough to justify spending the money on it.

Joe

The Lewis · Post by **The Lewis** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:00 pm

Joe, How do you identify a balloon head case? I never heard the expression before.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:12 pm

The Lewis,

If you look down inside the case mouth to the head of a balloon head case you will see a raised area in the center of the case head with the flash hole in the center. The raised area is surrounded by a depression. The raised area surrounds the primer pocket.

If you look down inside the case mouth to the head of a solid head case you will see the flash hole and a solid mass of brass.

The balloon head cases are old technology and are considerably weaker than the solid head cases. For routine use they have zero benefit over the modern cases. However for occasional use with full house black powder loads they are quite usable.

Joe

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:09 pm

J Miller wrote:Ed,

I've never purchased one because of several reasons:

A- I usually follow published loading data that matches factory loads as close as possible. I do not experiment with loads unless I have some published data to start with.

B- I reload to shoot, I don't want to spend all my time experimenting. I look for an accurate load that's full power for the cartridge I'm loading and stick with it.

C- I carry enough junk with me to the range. I don't need any more clutter.

D- Until recently they cost too much for me.

I may break down and buy one, but for the way I shoot and load, I honestly would not need one often enough to justify spending the money on it.

Joe

You're right on with all four of your points Joe and they closely mirror my situation too BUT come on, any excuse to buy more guns and gun related toys has always lifted my spirits.

spurgon · Post by **spurgon** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:54 pm

I read it Joe. Thanks for the input.
spurgon

Scott Young · Post by **Scott Young** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:18 pm

J Miller wrote:Just for my curiosity, did anybody actually read the post I linked to?

Joe

i did

it was good and had pictures!!!

Lee factory crimp die

Lee factory crimp die

FCD--WHO???