.45-70 Ammo for the Iditarod?

[don Tomás]

I have a buddy who is hoping to run the Iditarod in 2-3 years time. His team is assembled and training. He wanted to have a gun available on the sled, even though he's not crazy about the added weight. I convinced him to go with the Marlin Guide Gun: simple, reliable, easy to operate & maintain and one heck of a caliber. They run the race in the beginning of March which is a bit early for bear, but there was one report a while back of a team rounding a corner and running into a bull moose which was able to stomp and kill several in the team before the musher was able to put him down with a firearm (no listing found of what gun or caliber). Of course there's always a chance of running into a bear who was unable to read the hibernation schedule.

Anyway, ammo. I was thinking of:

GARRETT'S 45-70 GOVERNMENT HAMMERHEAD 420grn

GARRETT'S 45-70 HAMMERHEAD AMMO +P 420grn

Buffalo Bore Ammunition 45-70 Government +P 430 Grain Lead Long Flat Nose

What would you recommend as a load for the Guide Gun? Thanks in advance...

[Pisgah]

If you can hit what you are aiming at, and control it well enough for quick follow-ups, any of those should more than do.

[AJMD429]

I'd want the gun on my person, as the sled isn't always where you are when things go nasty.

In the late 1970's, I believe I recall reading where one of the winners chose a Ruger Super Blackhawk for her 'trail gun'.

I'd probably opt for a Redhawk and some very 'hot' loads, or better yet, a .454 Casull single action.

[rjohns94]

I would wear my .475 linebaugh and not carry a rifle. better on me when my hands are full of sled and team i'm thinking. But back to the original question, any of those loads would be enough so long as he is familiar with the rifle and load combo he chooses.

[rafter-7]

did anyone say Handgun...... 454 anyone... But he does need a sled from Paul Bergen

^

[Cruise]

I'd want the gun on my person, as the sled isn't always where you are when things go nasty.

AJ is spot on. My 2400 hrs as a FAC in RVN (Birddogs) taught me that you leave a downed plane with what you have. It has to be on your body. Mine was a 1911. Long arms are nice to contemplate, but it seldom happens. What you have when you have to unass the machine whatever is on your body. You may be able to go back and retrieve your long arm but don't count on it. My long arm was a Swedish K w/silencer which was unconventional to say the least. It was given to me courtesy of some friends not in the military but whom I supported. I don't have the weapon now, passed it on to my "turtle".

A musher is similarly situated. What they have on the sled is of no value to them if they are separated.

A sidearm attached to the musher would be a better choice.

FWIW we have followed the Iditarod as an "Insider" at the following link:
http://www.iditarod.com/
It is a lot of vicarious fun.

[Cruise]

The Iditarod can be a hostile place as evidenced by this interview with a contestant, Susan Butcher:

"In 1985, I was traveling alone at night in the lead of the race and ran into an obviously crazed moose. She was starving to death. There was something wrong with her. She was just skin and bones. And rather than run away, she turned to charge the team. I thought she would just run through me. I stopped the team, threw the sled over. She had plenty of room to pass us along the trail. She came into the team and stopped. She just started stomping and kicking the dogs. She charged at me. For twenty minutes, I held her off with my ax and with my parka, waving it in her face."

Read the whole interview here:
http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/but0int-1

[Old Time Hunter]

If ya gotta pack a rifle, mine would be a '94 Trapper in .44mag to go along with .44mag Blackhawk side arm.

[firefuzz]

Bears, angry moose, and other large, angry animals capable of leaving marks on my body intimidate the snot (and probably things out the other end) of me. I don't care for large caliber handguns anymore, don't own anything over a .357, but since I suppose that a sled mounted Ma Duce is out of the question I'd carry the biggest handgun I could handle for 2 quick shots in a chest rig and a properly lubed 12ga pump loaded with slugs on the sled.

We're talking about being eaten or stomped to death here..... Sorry guys, I love my lever guns...but when it come to up close and personal smash not much beats a 12ga slug. A slicked up, short-stroked '73 might beat a slicked up 870 in a speed contest, but nothing in a "big-bore" lever will even come close.

(quickly put on fire proof suit)

Rob

[AJMD429]

We're talking about being eaten or stomped to death here..... Sorry guys, I love my lever guns...but when it come to up close and personal smash not much beats a 12ga slug. A slicked up, short-stroked '73 might beat a slicked up 870 in a speed contest, but nothing in a "big-bore" lever will even come close.

It's funny though - in the .410 shell, that 'slug' was actually legal for deer in Indiana, but compared to the .32-20 factory loads even, was pretty unimpressive. Step up to a 12 gauge, though, and it seems the power level is way greater. Dunno if 12 gauge vs. .45-70 or .444 Marlin would be worse from a practical standpoint, but it doesn't seem that any of the rifle rounds get as close as in the smaller gauge. Is it just a weight/diameter issue?

[86er]

I'd use the 405 gr PUNCH bullet handloaded, or loaded by Grizzly Cartridge. It will penetrate a large animal enough to get to vitals from almost any angle. If for some reason a jacketed bullet was desired I'd go with the 405 gr Kodiak. The big, heavy cast bullets you mentioned are good but in extensive tests they do break and or smear on tough bones and lose a lot of penetration if a head shot is taken. Why take a chance? On the other hand, I do agree that a good handgun seems to be a better defensive choice. I don't know enough about the conditions to guess how far away a threat would be before the shooting started. That would make a big difference.

[Grizzly Adams]

I seem to recall that Dick Mackey carried a TC pistol with him. 45/410. Good for taking Ptarmigan in case, and will do the job on most moose. Mackey had to shoot a moose that would not "give trail." He was cited by fish and game for failure to stop and salvage the meat! :shock

[EndGameAK]

Cruise, and all ...

I was on that '85 Iditarod. I was traveling about 30 minutes behind Susan when she had her moose incident. The hero of the tale is Duane "Dewey" Halverson. Susan didn't carry a firearm to defend her dogs ... too much weight. Dewey, though, did ... a Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Special. I carried the same model on my first 2 Iditarods. Loaded, it weighed 21 oz. And always in the small of my back, so I could easily access it under the hem of my parka. Dewey rescued Susan's dogs from the moose, something she was unable to do.

I took a S&W Mountain Gun .44 mag my last 2 Iditarods. It stayed in my sled bag. Too heavy and annoying to wear for 12 days of heavy work and little sleep. Since then, my wintertime pistol is an 18 oz S&W M396 Mountain Lite .44 Special, loaded with Buffalo Bore's Heavy .44 Special ammo, 255 gr gas checked hardcasts at 975 fps in my pistol. I killed a 2 or 3 year old moose with it, several years ago, that was in my team, and wasn't leaving.

In hard winters where the snow is quite deep, moose will sometimes yard up in the trail, and refuse to get out of the way. In 1990, a similar deep snow winter, 5X champ Rick Swenson carried my Remington M870 12 ga. slug gun from Anchorage to McGrath 350 miles, and then dropped the shotgun. About 5 miles outside of town, a moose in the trail got into his team and seriously injured one of his leaders ... a disaster. Swenson went back to McGrath, got the dog to the vets, retrieved the slug gun and carried it all the way to Nome.

Moose are the primary threat to the dogs. Many times, if you come on a moose in the trail, they will charge right through the team, past the sled and be gone. That is no big deal. The menace is those moose that stay to fight the dogs. That's where a firearm is essential. I'm of the opinion that a LIGHT powerful handgun is the answer. And I practice to shoot it well.

[firefuzz]

We're talking about being eaten or stomped to death here..... Sorry guys, I love my lever guns...but when it come to up close and personal smash not much beats a 12ga slug. A slicked up, short-stroked '73 might beat a slicked up 870 in a speed contest, but nothing in a "big-bore" lever will even come close.

It's funny though - in the .410 shell, that 'slug' was actually legal for deer in Indiana, but compared to the .32-20 factory loads even, was pretty unimpressive. Step up to a 12 gauge, though, and it seems the power level is way greater. Dunno if 12 gauge vs. .45-70 or .444 Marlin would be worse from a practical standpoint, but it doesn't seem that any of the rifle rounds get as close as in the smaller gauge. Is it just a weight/diameter issue?

I really can't answer that with facts, they just work. Aside from one time being charged by a feral boar while javalina hunting I've never had to stop something dangerous coming at ME. On two occassions I've had to shoot enraged bulls to keep them from killing another person. One was with a .460 Weatherby, a Texas heart shot that went all the way thru the animal end to end, and another when I was a deputy with a 12ga 1oz slug that broke both shoulders and dropped him in his tracks.

A Mark V Weatherby is too heavy, and expensive, to really consider. However, a good 870 pump with an 18.5" barrel and slugs in certainly worth considering. I have a lot of faith in a 12ga slug to put paid to anything short of an elephant.

Rob

[hfcable]

my choihce would be smith 329 with 250 gr barnes solids, and if not that then somewhat heavier ruger blackhawk 45 colt [ short barrel ] with 300 gr hardcast. yes, either of these will stop a moose attack [ yes i have done it] and you will have it right with you when you need it. the 44 bulldog is another favorite of mine as is the rossi 44 but i guess i would stick with the 329 since it is also light, handles well and has very good sights and points well. i carry mine in shoulder holster on float trips etc. love my 45/70 rifles, but not for sledding in the winter since weight and accessibility are critical.

[EndGameAK]

hfcable ...

My S&W 329 is my April thru October sidearm. Loaded with Buffalo Bore's "reduced recoil" .44 mag load - 255gr GC hards-cast @ 1270 fps in my barrel - it's a good load for the 329. I had it Magnaported in order to virtually eliminate the muzzle jump. I can now get off a 2nd shot much more quickly, particularly in double action. It weighs 31 oz loaded.

By the way, shoulder holsters are hard to get to under all your winter gear. A belt holster in the small of the back is easier to get to, by reaching up under the hem of the parka.

[AJMD429]

I was on that '85 Iditarod.

OK, Hobie, you need to cancel this guy's forum privileges unless and until he posts DETAILS of the whole experience (photos optional but desired), for those of us who live in places where 4 inches of snow shuts down the entire community as if it's an ice age...

Seriously, TELL US MORE...!

[hfcable]

hfcable ...

My S&W 329 is my April thru October sidearm. Loaded with Buffalo Bore's "reduced recoil" .44 mag load - 255gr GC hards-cast @ 1270 fps in my barrel - it's a good load for the 329. I had it Magnaported in order to virtually eliminate the muzzle jump. I can now get off a 2nd shot much more quickly, particularly in double action. It weighs 31 oz loaded.

By the way, shoulder holsters are hard to get to under all your winter gear. A belt holster in the small of the back is easier to get to, by reaching up under the hem of the parka.

yes, i only use the shoulder holster in warm weather, and for the last several years my only winter adventuring has just been walking the dog [ back surgeries/back trouble] so then i just have it in my open right hand front pocket in my coat with my hand resting on it most of the time. sounds like a good load for 329, thanks.

[madman4570]

A Freedom Arms in .475 Linebaugh, and loaded with Grizzly Cartridges 390 Grain Punch Bullets.
Some reason that cartridge just goes above and beyond to satisfy dealing with anything bad.

[EndGameAK]

AJMD429 ....

There are no pictures.

It was in the middle of a -40 night when I arrived on the scene ... a bit after Dewey had shot the moose. The race rules were that no team could advance past a game animal that had been killed before it was gutted (so the meat could be salvaged by race officials) and cleared from the trail. There were several teams and drivers stacked up in a traffic jam. The gutted moose was stiffening up nicely. A bunch of us stood the boney beast up, leaning her against a cut bank on the left side of the trail. She looked almost ready to attack the next dog team to come by. We then moved the trail a couple feet to the right, thus "clearing" the trail. Susan turned her team around, and went back to the Rabbit Lake checkpoint to get vet care for her dogs and scratched. Several of her dogs died. Some lead-dogs, mine included, didn't want to approach that 6' tall moose standing right beside the trail. But with a firm, calm, "On by" command, their training moved them on down the trail.

If Susan had packed a light, powerful pistol, she could have defended her dog team, and avoided a tragedy. The first woman, Libby Riddles won the Iditarod that year. It had been widely expected that Susan Butcher would be the first female winner. Might have been IF she had been armed. In the next few years, Susan won 4 Iditarods, including 3 in a row. She later retired from Iditarod, and started a family. Sadly, about 5 years ago she died of leukemia, leaving behind her husband, David Monson, and two daughters. Her funeral was attended by her friends ... bush rats, dog mushers, politicians and CEOs. Bill and Melinda Gates were there. She was quite a gal.

[firefuzz]

In the next few years, Susan won 4 Iditarods, including 3 in a row. She later retired from Iditarod, and started a family. Sadly, about 5 years ago she died of leukemia, leaving behind her husband, David Monson, and two daughters. Her funeral was attended by her friends ... bush rats, dog mushers, politicians and CEOs. Bill and Melinda Gates were there. She was quite a gal.

A fuller life that most. To Susan (lifts a cup)

Rob