OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

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OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by AJMD429 »

This is concerning! :shock:

Image

Before the 'smokeless vs. blackpowder' debate takes the thread off-track, it seems like the problem is that breech-plug just doesn't seal the way it should (see compared to 'normal' one, below). Wonder why in the world they did that?

Image Image

I wonder if a brass or aluminum gasket at that shoulder, and some measured but firm torque would help out. After all, brass cartridge cases manage to seal .454 Casull levels of pressure in non-blackpowder guns, which ordinarly have FAR less mechanical seal at the rear than a muzzleloader's breechplug provides (or, at least, should provide...)

Here's the original article link - http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by piller »

Sure hope no one was harmed.
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by J Miller »

Savage is eventually going to get sued big time over this.

I'm not interested in the least in using this type of muzzle loader, but now I don't even want to be near one when it's shot.

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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by TedH »

I never thought the smokeless smokepole was a very good idea in the first place.
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by stretch »

Now I'm no expert, but it looks like hi pressure blew
that one. Nothing bad behind the plug - looks like
the damage is forward of the plug in the barrel.

Am I missing something?

Two projectiles by mistake? Double charge?

-Stretch
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by AJMD429 »

I was looking into this a bit more, and you might find the 'rebuttal' informative, although it is of course an argument between two with vested interests. If you read the 'background' (on this link, http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm), it does tend to make one skeptical...!

I thought it was especially interesting in light of our other thread on "pressure rise in smokeless powders" - http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=27410

Anyway, here's the more 'scientific' part of the post quoted below; I thought it was interesting.
Randy Wakeman at http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm wrote: A) The “Gas-Cutting” Breechplug Theory

This newly coined term does not bear close scrutiny. Throat erosion is common in all rifles and is a known quantity that has been around for as long as I can remember. The gas temperature of propellant is somewhere around 5000 degrees F. Whenever you burn a lot of powder in a small hole, as in the .220 Swift, the .22-250, and the .204 Ruger you have the potential for “barrel burners.” Throat erosion begins at the chamber area and migrates towards the muzzle. It never has been a safety issue at all. The rifling depth on most center-fire rifles is only 3.5 thousandths of an inch or so, about the depth of a piece of newsprint. It doesn't take much to erode the rifling to the point where it affects accuracy. Not a safety issue at all, but if you get a .220 Swift barrel nice and hot and keep blazing away the accuracy life of that barrel is diminished considerably. It is not unusual at all for high-volume varmint shooters to wear out their barrels within 3000 – 5000 rounds and screw on a replacement barrels to get accuracy back. This is considered common knowledge.

All flash holes and breechplugs erode. This too is considered common knowledge and normal wear. As Dr. Gary “Doc” White has long noted, most muzzleloaders don't shoot nearly enough to notice. The breechplug is a wearing part. Not a safety issue at all, but particularly when the flash hole opens up it may become an accuracy issue. That's the whole idea behind the original Henry Ball patent-- flash holes wear, regardless of propellant. With the patented ventliner (a replaceable flash hole) you get brand new muzzleloader accuracy without having to change the whole breechplug, just the ventliner. The idea that “gas-cutting” is new, unusual, or unique to the Savage is false on its face. I've personally shot Thompson and Knight breechplugs to the point of being so visibly eroded and opened up, the worn-out breechplugs had to be replaced. Shoot any breechplug long and hard enough, it can show wear. All normal wear, with the opening of the flash hole the part that may affect pinpoint accuracy.

B) The Breechplug as a “Perfect Seal” Theory

This one is easily disproved. No breechplug seals “perfectly.” If they did, no muzzleloading manufacturer would bother telling you to lube the breechplug threads. They all do, of course, as the threads do most of the sealing. But, the threads do not at all make a breechplug a “perfect seal.” A perfectly sealing breechplug would be completely worthless. Look at any breechplug-- of course it isn't a “perfect seal,” as there is a nice hole going straight through the middle of it. If there was no flash hole, your primer would not be able to do its job. For anyone so inclined to think a breechplug is a “perfect seal,” you might want to install one in the middle of your bass boat-- and don't be all that surprised when it eventually fills with water and sinks. So much for “perfect sealing breechplugs.”

C) Fully Threaded Breechplugs Are Desirable?

The unthreaded nose on a breechplug is the better, stronger breechplug-- not the other way around. It is the nose of the breechplug that is in direct contact with the hot gas, not the threads that are behind it. The unthreaded nose of the breechplug protects the breechplug threads, having threads in direct contact with the primary powder charge exposes them to hot gas and particulate matter. And what about barrel strength? Cutting threads into a barrel of course weakens it at that point, which is exactly what you would have to do with a fully threaded breechplug.

This is the breech from a Russian 122 mm M1910 howitzer combined with 105mm H37 howitzer barrel. The Howitzer breechplug is as far from "fully threaded" as can be imagined.
Image
This is the overhead view of the same Howitzer. As the Howitzer is a breechloader, not a muzzleloader, you'll note the huge, smooth, threadless concave area required so the breechplug can be swung in and out of battery.
Image
Most modern inline breechplugs have unthreaded portions at the nose area, for the simple reason that they are better-- doing a good job at protecting the breechplug threads than running threads all the way to the nose. The above image is a picture of my spare Encore Endeavor breechplug, the "Speed Breech XT." While the idea of being in a hurry to get your breechplug out may make some sense with heavy fouling, corrosive propellants, it makes a lot less sense with far cleaner, non-corrosive smokeless. The interrupted threads of this T/C plug were inspired by the Howitzer. You'll note that more than half of the breechplug has no threads at all and the stepped snout is completely threadless.

A breechplug, with a smooth unthreaded portion at the nose is a superior design. It protects the threads of the breechplug and is also stronger than a fully threaded plug by having superior column strength and lack of stress risers. It was co-designed by both Savage Arms and Henry Ball and is used simply because it is superior in both respects. As a matter of fact, I discussed this breech plug with both Henry and Ron Coburn. The initial design had passed testing, but Henry wanted an extra turn of the strong, coarse threads added to what by now has long been the standard Savage breech plug. Ron Coburn, a firearms designer and multiple patent holder in his own right, asked Henry why, as it already exceeded all recognized engineering standards. Henry replied, "Because everything about this gun has to be the best that has ever been. I always err on the side of caution and safety." Ron Coburn smiled, complimenting Henry on the way he looked at things. "It will be the best that has ever been, Henry. We are raising the bar on standards in the industry." That extra turn of threads was added without delay.

D) How Pressure Works In a Muzzleloader

This is important and not commonly understood. The complete bullet travel time of a saboted projectile in a Savage 10ML-II is very, very short-- less than 1.5 milliseconds. It takes 300 – 400 ms for the average human to blink an eye. Let's say you are a fairly fast eye-blinker at 300 milliseconds. In that period of time, 200 shots could have traveled the full length of a Savage 10ML-II barrel and exited.

What does this have to do with pressure? Quite a lot, actually. Peak pressure in a muzzleloader happens nowhere near the breechplug at all, it always follows the base of the sabot. Peak pressure in a representative load of Accurate Arms 5744 happens after the length of the powder column, and after the sabot has moved 2.5 inches. It is absolutely, positively nowhere near the breechplug at all. Of course, the sabot doesn't stop there-- it continues to move, rapidly exiting the muzzle about one millisecond later. After the peak pressure node, the pressure rapidly drops. The breechplug of a Savage 10ML-II sees no significant pressure, nothing remotely approaching peak pressure.

Again, I'll call upon Hartmut Broemel, designer of "QuickLOAD" and "QuickDESIGN" ballistics analysis software for his description of pressure distribution.

Image

If you give this a little thought, it will quickly become obvious to you. If the entire barrel was ever pressurized at a constant level, after every single shot that little cheap, tin-can of a 209 primer would be shattered into bits or quickly flattened like a bug on a windshield. It doesn't happen in the Savage, nor does it happen in any muzzleloader of course. Peak pressure never reaches the breechplug at all, not even enough to destroy a chintzy 209 primer. No Savage breechplug has ever failed despite Savage's intense, destructive testing of the 10ML before the first one was ever sold. It cannot plausibly fail as it sees no significant pressure as compared to the base of the sabot far downstream.

How Do I Blow Up a Savage 10ML-II?

Well, I didn't tell you it was going to be easy. If you are a reasonable person and use Savage-recommended loads, you're just out of luck. You cannot possibly damage your Savage 10ML-II, much less destroy it. Savage-recommended propellants, charge weights, and allowed weights of saboted bullets simply do not make enough pressure to come remotely close to damaging a Savage 10ML-II. That's been the idea all along, for the last ten years of continuous 10ML production. The laws of physics prevent that.

However, any steel tube can be destroyed if you try hard enough, including Howitzers and heavy Naval guns-- they all have been. There are two basic strength values to steel; 2% yield strength and tensile strength. If you really want to destroy a Savage 10ML-II, you are going to have to find a way to exceed the tensile strength of the Savage's proof-tested, certified steel barrel. Tensile strength is the pressure at which steel pulls itself apart. Please bear with me, I'll try to get you there.

For starters, you might want to try a double charge of powder-- a dangerous, Savage prohibited load. So, a double-charge of powder and a 250 grain saboted bullet might put your shoulder out of joint, or bounce a scope off your head in a belated attempt to talk you out of it. You won't be able to hit anything, of course, as the integrity of your sabot is long gone. It is a dumb thing to do, but will develop a peak pressure in the area of 60,000 PSI-- not enough to destroy your Savage. By the way, this is not a load “recommendation,” folks. Neither is shooting out your ramrod, but dozens of people have done that and managed to ring a Savage barrel, but not destroy it.

Okay, so let's try something else, thrill-seekers. How about a Savage “max charge” of powder, then a 250 grain sabot, then another 250 grain sabot. Well, your shoulder is out of its socket again and that pesky scope is likely bouncing off your head once again, but no-- the peak pressure you developed is once again in the general vicinity of 60,000 PSI and it is unlikely you damaged your gun.

It is redundant testing like these loads (and more radical ones) that Savage has conducted for years (along with independent folks like Barnes Bullets, Western Powders, etc.) that makes damage to the 10ML-II with a Savage-recommended load a practical impossibility. It also exposes Mr. Toby Bridges as a horrible, lousy liar who is also supremely technically incompetent. Though attempted extortionist Bridges' completely unsubstantiated story about his incident from nearly six years ago has changed constantly, the original claim was that he was using 44 grains of Accurate Arms 5744 and a 250 grain Hornady SST. Problem is, 44 grains of AA 5744 just cannot physically make enough gas with a 250 grain SST to possibly damage a 10ML-II. The “Toby Rifle” was examined by several experts and the universal conclusion was there was no problem with the metallurgy at all-- it was a simple, classic, horribly severe over-pressure situation not possible with any Savage load.

For the last several years, Mr. Bridges has been begging one and all to send him pictures of a failed Savage, ostensibly still because he is still stinging from his discharge under "less than honorable conditions" from Savage Arms. After all these years, Toby apparently finely got his wish. A fellow from Canada sent Toby pictures of a rifle that he allegedly blew-up and further claimed that he was using 42.5 grains of SR-4759 and a 250 grain Barnes. All of this is more than a bit odd, as we don't have any witnesses, no sworn statement, no corroboration, no professional investigation of the incident, and no proper examination of the rifle-- or any examination of the rifle at all for that matter. Of course, Mr. Bridges personally knows nothing of the incident at all; he just got some Don Henley “Dirty Laundry” to pollute his site with.

There is a very big problem here, for anyone that knows anything about internal ballistics, though. 42.5 grains of SR4759 and a 250 grain Barnes sabot cannot damage a Savage 10ML-II. A quantity of 42.5 grains of SR4759 and a 250 grain sabot can't possibly make enough pressure in a half inch hole to do any damage. Puzzled by all this, I called Savage and was surprised to learn that they have never heard from this fellow, or anyone connected with this fellow. It makes no sense.

The Grand Finale

After all this, I feel I owe my readers a bit of an apology for going on in such detail. I think it is important, though, to get a full and complete picture of what is plausible and what is not. The theoretical problems covered so far are not at all plausible. I received a voice mail from a gentleman by the name of Bob Stevens, a Savage 10ML-II fan from Idaho. Naturally, I promptly returned the call. Bob had just blown up his Savage 10ML-II.

Bob is 75 years old, an experienced hunter and reloader. He fell in love with his Savage 10ML-II and had had great success with it in the field. Yes, Bob blew up his Savage 10ML-II. Bob was uninjured, but the rifle sounds like quite a mess. A big difference here. While Bob was completely uninjured (except for his pride), Bob Stevens knew exactly what happened.

Bob's load was 43 grains of SR4759 and a 250 grain SST. Bob loaded his Savage 10ML-II, intending to do a little target shooting, but the wind was so bad he thought the better of it. He knew that there is never an excuse for storing a loaded muzzleloader, but I guess at the time he figured one night wouldn't hurt. Bob also knows what every muzzleloader should know, that being that the use of a witness mark on the ramrod absolutely, positively, mechanically prohibits any double loading or bench errors.

The next day the wind had diminished. Happy at the prospect of being able to go out and shoot, Bob grabbed his trusty 10ML-II and headed out forgetting that he had already loaded it. Bob knows that confirming that a Savage 10ML-II is unloaded is quite easy, as all you have to do it drop the factory ramrod into the muzzle and it will end up flush with the muzzle, instantly telling the shooter that the gun is indeed unloaded. But, his mind was on other things so that wasn't done.

By now, you can probably guess what is coming. Bob completely loaded his already completely loaded Savage. Down went another 43 grains of SR4759, down went another 250 grain SST. Sure, Bob had a witness mark but it doesn't do you much good if you don't use it. Bob also didn't notice that his loading rod didn't go down as much as normal, as it was left protruding the additional combined length of the extra powder charge column, the extra sabot, and the extra 250 grain SST. Bob quickly primed the gun and fired, and the gun came apart.

The chocolate layer cake load that Bob constructed consisted of seven components: primer, powder, sabot, bullet, powder, sabot, bullet. You have to break just about every rule in the book to get there, but it happened. Using information from Hartmut Broemel of Babenhausen, Germany, and Johan Loubser of Western Powders, I ran the numbers to get a rough idea of the peak pressure potential of that load that happened 2 milliseconds after Bob hit the Accu-Trigger. The maximum pressure potential of that load exceeds 316,000 PSI, roughly nine times the pressure of any Savage recommended load. That is of course more than ample pressure to destroy any commercially available shoulder-fired weapon I can think of. The SAAMI MAP for the .50 BMG, for example, is 54,000 PSI, with nothing running higher than 65,000 PSI MAP that I can think of.
On the North Carolina Hunting and Fishing Forums website, there is this post, apparently from an owner of Savage (again, a vested interest, but perhaps so is the 'blowup' guy):
1Shot1Kill at http://www.nchuntandfish.com/forums/showthread.php?p=350628 wrote:In 1998, Toby Bridges was hired by my father and I, for $42K a year, to find a major arms manufactures to market our smokeless powder muzzleloader and in February 1999 we sign a contract with Savage Arms for Patent production rights for the model 10ML. Later that very same yeart Savage Arms hired Toby Bridges as a consultant and R&D consultant for $30K a year. By Toby Bridges own admission (please keep in mind, his word, written or spoken is suspect at best) he was making more money off the Savage 10ML, than he ever had in his life. Keep this in mind as your read further.

Toby blew that first Savage 10ML-II up in March 2004. I have the faxes and e-mails that he sent the very same day as that 10ML-II was blown up. His written words that very same day, do not reflect the story he has on his website today. There were many things going on between Savage, myself, my father, and Toby. These things were a direct result of Toby doing things that were detrimental to Savage arms, the Savage 10ML-II, as well as to himself and those around him. All this started in 2003, when Toby had made some extremely poor decisions in his personal life, but I don't need to get into the details of that. Early in 2004, Toby was palced on notice, both from Savage and my father, that if he didn't get his stuff straighten out and straighten out fast, there would be dire consequences.

Toby was repeatedly warned and told to cease and desist the use and advocation of non-Savage recommended loading data, to include duplex and triplex loads and powders. Toby was also told to cease and desist from insulting and harrasing various game departmants across the US, concerning the Savage 10ML-II. Savage even demanded that he send written appologies to them, for his misconduct. Instead of heading the warning from us and Savage, Toby turned his anger towards us and Savage. He became belligerent and insubordinate towards us and Savage.

It all came to a head, early in August 2004, when Toby was employment from Savage and us, was terminated. For 3 weeks, Toby sent faxes and e-mails daily in an attempt to exort a six figure sum from Savage and $25K from us, or he would make sure that his "blown up" Savage 10ML-II would be plastered all over the internet. We and Savage refused to give into his demands, and for one time that I am aware of, Toby actually was true to his word and plastered it all over the internet on 24 August 2004. He even came back to us about 1 year later and tried the same extortion attempt again, but was told to go pleasure himself.

Toby sent that blown 10ML-II back to Savage in May 2004. Savage did a thorough examination of that 10ML-II and had external experts exam it as well. In September or October 2004, that 10ML-II and 6 brand new 10ML-II's were sent to H.P White Labertories, the world reknowned small arms testing lab, for examination and to duplicate the blow up. H.P. White's determination was only an over charge combined with a bore obstruction could have caused the catrastropic failure, such as Toby claimed to have. Toby was present at the Savage Arms with us, when Savage was conducting destruction test on Savage 10ML-II's. Toby was and is fully aware of it takes to destruct a Savage 10ML-II. I can tell you that it takes in excess of 129,000 PSI to destruct a Savage 10ML-II.

Bottom line is Toby Bridges blew that 10ML-II up intentional. He did it because he knew very well that his days were numbered with Savage and us. He blew it up to use as extortion material to use at a later date.

When H.P. White returned that 10ML-II and the other to Savage, I requested that Savage send the 10ML-II that Toby blew up to me. I now it is the same 10ML-II, because the serial number says so and I knew what serial number 10ML-II Toby had. It was sent to me after Savage replaced the barrel, barrel nut, recoil lug, breech plug and stock. This is what that very same 10ML-II looks like today.
Image
Now as for regarding the second blown Savage 10ML-II, the owner of that Savage 10Ml-II has not even contacted Savage Arms about it. So as of this date Savage Arms has no knowledge of the details of the incident, much less an opportunity to examine the muzzleloader. However, there are numerous reports coming out of Canada, supposedly by people who know this invidual and of the incident, that he used a black powder volunmmetric powder charger, to measure and dump his powder chargers. There is another report, supposedly from one of this guys hunting buddies, that the muzzleloader had a charge from the previous season in it and he loaded it again.

I and everyone else should take these reports, as to the cause, with a grain of salt, as they could be just hearsay or pure speculation. The only sure way to know for sure, is for that individual to send that muzzleloader back to Savage Arms for examintion and external examination and testing.

Bottom line is there has never been a firearm made, rifle shotgun, handgun, that cannot be blown up, has been blown up, nor will be blown up. The Savage 10ML-II, with the books loads only generate pressures in the 34,000 - 42,000 PSI range. It is impossible, let me say that again, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE, to blow a Savage 10ML-II up with those low pressures loads. So, if Toby says he was only shooting 45gr of 5744 and 250gr bullet, he is lying (actually I know he is lying because his fax that same day states he was shooting something diferrent) and if this guys in Canada says he was only shooting 42.5gr of 4759 and 250gr bullet, he is lying, because it is impossible to blow a Savage with those loads, simply impossible.
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by Rusty »

My son I were talking about this just this morning... The Savage muzzleloading rifle that shoots smoke less powder. A little iffy if you ask me. I guess this is the proof.
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by Jeff Quinn »

Here are the facts:

Toby worked for Savage for several years, promoting the smokeless muzzleloader Model 10ML and its variants. Everything was going perfectly, until Savage had to fire Toby. Toby was very, very unhappy about that. One week later, the gun blew up.

Toby said that he was firing the gun when it blew, but that he was not injured.
The scope was propelled REARWARD about 60 feet, which would have had to pass through Toby's right eye and a good portion of his skull, IF HE WAS FIRING THE WEAPON as stated.

I am very suspicious.

I think the gun was blown intentionally, and remotely fired from a safe distance. How else could the scope have passed through Mr. Bridges' eye without any injury?

I like Toby, and have no problem with him personally, but do not believe this story.
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by AJMD429 »

Rusty wrote:My son I were talking about this just this morning... The Savage muzzleloading rifle that shoots smoke less powder. A little iffy if you ask me. I guess this is the proof.
I think it's funny how everyone seems to assume it's a "using smokeless in a muzzleloader" issue, when it's anything BUT that issue...

1. The allegation of blowing up is that the breech plug was poorly designed (the unthreaded fore-section, essentially), NOT that "smokeless" blew it up.

2. The pressure curves of smokeless vs. blackpowder do NOT support the notion that smokeless is inherently unsafe in BP guns, nor that it causes higher pressures, nor that it causes a more rapid spike in pressure.

3. Black powder EXPLODES if you pour out a few ounces into a pile and toss a match onto it, whereas smokeless powder just 'fizzles' fairly quickly. That alone ought to give one pause before thinking smokeless is 'too powerful' for BP guns.

4. If it came down to using some 5744 and a saboted pistol bullet in the average "black powder only" muzzleloader, vs. using a 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge in a "smokeless" gun, only loaded with black powder, my first choice would be the 5744 in BP one. Both might work, but it seems unlikely that the 5744 would exceed BP specs with a saboted pistol bullet, whereas I'd not have one bit of confidence that the black powder and 7mm Rem Mag could get along well enough to put a 165 gr. JSP out the barrel without something going wrong.

5. If using smokeless is so dangerous in a "black powder" gun, then why would there be people who use guns in .45-70 with smokeless...? Wouldn't they use the safer black powder exclusively? Is it merely the presence of a CARTRIDGE case that allows "smokeless" to be just dandy for the .45-70...?

6. If it is NOT the cartridge case that makes the difference between a "BP" gun and a "smokeless" one, what is it? Metallurgy? If that's the case, I doubt the Savage would be an issue - "smokeless" quality metallurgy isn't a scarce or high-cost technology, and they already produce guns capable of that. So I doubt they would bother producing inferior barrels or receivers just to save ten or twenty bucks when making their ML-II series.

7. That leaves the "muzzleloading" part as the culprit potentially incompatible with "smokeless" powders. Why would that be? Certainly the physics of it all suggests that the expandable brass cartridge case provides a good seal against pressure in the smokeless cartridge gun (even if shot with black powder cartridges), since the smokeless cartridge gun has a 'bolt' of some sort that definitely doesn't provide a gas-tight seal - just a STRONG one. No matter how strong the bolt lockup, it seems doubtful that a threaded breech plug could be less strong, provided it is made of decent metals (see #6 above). So, the ONLY place to "give" in a muzzleloader vs. a cartridge/smokeless gun seems to be the hole in the breech plug. A pressure surge could scour out that hole or blow the shotgun primer or percussion cap to pieces!

Well, we don't seem to be seeing #7 happening, so unless the ML shooter used a powder with a more RAPID pressure spike than black powder, or used a huge overload of powder or bullet, what else could make the gun blow up...?

The 'kaboom' shown obviously was a BARREL or maybe breech-plug-only-partially-threaded failure, so...the only conclusion to me would be that it is either:
  • a. Savage is lying and makes their barrels and actions from pot-metal instead of the usual high-tensile steel they already use for their other guns, or

    b. Savage wanted to save money by threading less barrel, or made an incorrect calculation that doing so would be stronger or more reliable, or

    c. The shooter was using a rapid-spike powder NOT indicated for use in that gun, or made some other major mistake (intentionally or not) like a double charge or two bullets or something.
"C" is obviously plausable. "A" is doubtful, because there would be such little gain and such great liability. "B" sounds plausible, but would it really save that much money to build the guns that way? I could see the possibility that some testing showed the partially-threaded breech plug to be strong, yet gas cutting caused pressure problems behind it after enough rounds, but THAT IS A DESIGN PROBLEM AND MOST DEFINITELY NOT A 'SMOKELESS VS. BLACKPOWDER' PROBLEM.

So, the "debate" is NOT about "smokeless powder in a muzzleloader" but merely whether or not the Savage is a bad design due to the partially-threaded breech plug. Given the 'testimony' of both sides as noted above, it's hard not to suspect that the chances of "C" are greater than the chances of "B", being the problem.
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by Chas. »

Interesting that Toby Bridges blew up that rifle and wrote the article AFTER being fired by Savage Arms.
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by Rusty »

I think Terry or someone with a lot technical knowledge than I have will have to lay out the details but I do know that BP loads are measured in LUP's or Lead units of pressure while smokeless uses copper units of pressure so they aren't even close.
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AJMD429
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by AJMD429 »

Rusty wrote:I think Terry or someone with a lot technical knowledge than I have will have to lay out the details but I do know that BP loads are measured in LUP's or Lead units of pressure while smokeless uses copper units of pressure so they aren't even close.
I am not by any means well versed in the 'internal ballistics' stuff, but this quote is just part of the thread I linked to above, and you might find the thread interesting. KirkD seems to be very knowledgable on this.

Link = http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=27410
KirkD wrote:This has been discussed in detail in the past. A search might find it. In general, smokeless powders like Blue Dot and 2400 give approximately the same pressure curve as black powder FOR THE SAME VELOCITY AS BLACK POWDER AND THE SAME BULLET AND BULLET WEIGHT. Smokeless powders with a faster burn rate like Unique, Trail Boss, Bullseye, etc. will give a higher, sharper pressure spike. Slower smokeless powders like IMR 4227, IMR 3031, RL-7, etc. will give a lower, rounder pressure spike. Sherman Bell had some good articles on this a few years ago in the Double Gun Journal. Others have posted pressure curve comparisons. Some examples are below:

Image

Image

In the above data, he used a 410 grain bullet with IMR SR4759. To compare apples to apples, you should increase the peak pressure by 25% to compare with the 500 grain bullet. This will raise the peak pressures to be pretty much identical with FFg and still lower than FFFg, but higher than Fg. It will also reduce the 'rise' (the length of the curve).

Sherman Bell, in his comparisons (not shown here) used the same bullet but with different smokeless powders and black powder. What he showed is that slower smokeless powders (he used IMR 4198, IMR 3031 and RL-7) can give the same or higher velocity with lower pressure, including lower peak pressure (for the same case, same bullet and same velocity). Thus, the right kind of smokeless powder is actually easier on your old guns. You might think, therefore, that the slower the powder the better. Not so. If the pressure gets too low, it fails to expand the case to seal against the chamber walls, and two things happen. First, the outside of your cases get all sooty. Second, and worse, all the axial thrust is against your bolt face, which you don't want for toggle link actions like the Winchester Model 1873 and 1876. Thus, I use only a narrow range of smokeless powders in the 1873 and 1876 that runs in burn rate between 2400 and 5744, with 5744 being at the slower end of the range.

So my procedure is to first find a load using a powder in that burn rate range that will give me original black powder velocities. If the case is sooty, I keep the velocity the same, but go to a slightly faster powder, until the case eject clean. Then I know I have sufficient peak pressure to temporarily bond the cartridge case to the chamber walls during firing. For original old guns, I stay away from fast powders. For the same black powder velocity, they give way too high peak pressures. Take a look at the Trail Boss pressure curve above, for example. If you like to use Trail Boss or Unique or other real fast powders, you need to back down on your velocity accordingly, or back down on your bullet weight.

For some information on burn rates and relative quickness of different powders, check out http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_burning_speed.htm and use IMR SR4759 as being equal to FFg for comparison purposes. Blue Dot is approximately equal to FFFg and 2400 a little closer to Fg. You should also know, from Sherman Bell's work, that IMR 3031 has an erratic burn rate. I find that 2400 has an even more erratic burn rate (gives high extreme spreads in velocity under certain conditions). I like to have quite a bit of air space when using 2400 to reduce extreme spread, and with IMR 3031 I use a filler to reduce air space, which reduces extreme spread.

In general, if you are going to use smokeless powders in old black powder guns, you need to stick with published loads that give velocities similar to black powder velocities. Do not hot rod your old black powder guns. Developing smokeless loads for black powder guns is for more advanced loaders who understand what the burn rates and relative quickness of various powders mean as far as pressures.
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by wilko »

Jeff Quinn wrote:Here are the facts:

Toby worked for Savage for several years, promoting the smokeless muzzleloader Model 10ML and its variants. Everything was going perfectly, until Savage had to fire Toby. Toby was very, very unhappy about that. One week later, the gun blew up.

Toby said that he was firing the gun when it blew, but that he was not injured.
The scope was propelled REARWARD about 60 feet, which would have had to pass through Toby's right eye and a good portion of his skull, IF HE WAS FIRING THE WEAPON as stated.

I am very suspicious.

I think the gun was blown intentionally, and remotely fired from a safe distance. How else could the scope have passed through Mr. Bridges' eye without any injury?

I like Toby, and have no problem with him personally, but do not believe this story.

Exactly!! dont jump to conclusions about the quality of savage firearms and lets keep in mind that all of this conveniently happened right after Toby got fired..
"there's a man going around, taking names.."
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Re: OT - bad breech-plug seal not a good thing!

Post by KirkD »

stretch wrote:Now I'm no expert, but it looks like hi pressure blew
that one. Nothing bad behind the plug - looks like
the damage is forward of the plug in the barrel.

Am I missing something?

Two projectiles by mistake? Double charge?

-Stretch
I find myself in the same position as Stretch. I studied that photo and cannot see how the breech plug had anything to do with it. In fact, the breech plug is still in place in spite of the cataclysm that happened just forward of it. It looks to me like too much pressure. It would be interesting to do a chemical analysis on the residue to see what it was. If we are looking at Toby's gun, I'm thinking something like 70 grains of Bullseye under a heavy bullet or two. That should be toasty enough to watch ol Betsy blow.
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