38-55 Marlin Cowboy vs. 600 yard Dinger

[Whit Spurzon]

Video Added from our 400 yard session in my post further down the page. I'll add more from the 600 yard session later next week.

Between obligations I managed to get back over to Wind's place a few times this week with my 38-55. The result of this is all available ammo is shot pretty much as soon as it is loaded.

The first visit I spent getting acquainted with the new sight system on Wind's CB. He can give you the specifics but it is fair to say that I'm very impressed by quality and the precision it afforded me. No hold over, just dial it in, hold right on it and give it a slow press to the rear. It sure made the 400 yard dinger easy to hit...

So on my next visit Wind figured we'd shoot the 400 yard dinger at 600 yards! There was plenty of post left on the Montana Vintage Arms sight and it is very easy to adjust. He had it dialed in by the time I got there - he actually hit it on the first shot with an educated guess at the elevation. What was most amazing is that he had the self control to save some ammo for me. Had it been the other way around, I'm not sure I would have been able to wait. ::) especially true if I'm hitting it.


The hardest part about shooting 600 yards is waiting for the ding - it takes a while. Hopefully the video will turn out.


Most everyone knows it is "impossible" to shoot beyond 100 yards or so with most old fashion cartridges... AND they know that without a Scope you're lucky to hit anything past 50 yards... AND you need at least 3000 fps and a pointy bullet before you can get out past 200 yards... AND you'll need a solid front and rear rest... That's why every time I see Wind shoot a target WAY out there with iron sights, with a bullet jogging along at a mere 1300 fps, OFFHAND, I laugh out loud.


With the MVA sights and the Okanogan Shooting Sticks even I could ring it.


Plenty of sight left for more distance... The problem is we keep running out of bullets...

[J Miller]

That looks like fun.

Joe

[Hobie]

[Wind]

Hey there ya’ll --

Factory sights are very adequate for ranges between 50 and 200 yards. Unfortunately I think I was born with an extra LR gene. But this isn’t about birth defects. It’s about longer ranges. One of the issues with lever guns is the relationship between bolt length and top tang length. Often there is very little extra room for mounting tang sights.

I wanted to be able to reach out with both the 1893’s in 32-40 and 38-55 as well as the Marlin 336 Cowboy in 38-55. I didn’t want to modify the 1893”s in any way. As both were factory drilled and tapped for tang sights, I needed a sight base that would clear the bolt and be able to use the existing sight holes as drilled. There is nothing I could find that would work right out of the box.

The 336 Cowboy came to me with an off center hole drilled and tapped into the tang for a Lyman #2. This sight has no windage adjustment and was not acceptable for my needs. That off center hole was to prove to be a real pain in the butt.

Well, this was the playing field. My research for a sight base mostly started and stopped with Montana Vintage Arms. They had a sight base for a Stevens Rifle with the sight staff “ears” on one end. Their factory drilled holes would span over the 336 off center hole and with the second 1893 tang screw hole drilled accurately, would allow an 1893 installation with no rifle modifications. A little phone time to confirm dimensions and I had one in the mail.

After a little careful looking and layout, had the second hole drilled and counter-bored and the sight on the 1893 rifle. During the conversation with Montana Vintage Arms, we discussed what screws I wanted to include with the sight base and I requested the screw thread and pitch to fit the original 1893 holes. They fit like a dream. One down.

The sight base offered a solution, but with specific issues that needed to be addressed. Any additional screw holes needed to be under the staff tensioning spring and thus had to fall into the spring recess channel milled into the sight base. This restricted mounting screw size -- specifically head diameter.

With the new holes for the 1893 it would have been a simple matter to transfer these holes to the 336. Well guess what? I already had an off center hole there. There are any number of ways to fill that hole but I didn’t want to go there. I turned to the stock screw hole as a solution. This resulted in serious milling on the sight base and stock bolt but proved successful. Two down.

Both rifles function flawlessly. Without the off center hole I could have moved the sight base aft another 1/8th of an inch and had plenty of clearance for the 336 bolt. As it is, it looks to be touching the adjusting staff screw base, but it doesn’t. I don’t think it could be any closer though. Here are some pictures for your dinning and dancing pleasure.

Whit had cast all the bullets we were using. Between the sights and the sticks, he was whacking that 600 yard dinger shot after shot.

Best regards. Wind

[J Miller]

Wind,

A couple questions if you don't mind.

A: Do you have a big version of the "Will work for bullets" photo?
I need it for my new desk top pic.

B: Do you think a .45 Colt lever gun could be made to hit those 600 yd targets on a regular basis? If so what sight set up would you use?

If I ever get to the NW part of this country I just got to pay you a visit.

Joe

[Whit Spurzon]

Here's some videos of the 400 yard session.

Here I'm testing loads from Shenandoah and Drew (Thanks Guys! Both worked just fine!) Shenandoah's IMR 4198 load with the Ranch Dog 379-235 bullet has plenty of Legs to reach out 400 yards within the adjustment of my rear sight ramp. In fact I think 400 yard zero is the third notch down from the top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBE0fvhF ... re=channel

Here is Wind battling the sun with the Lee 379-250 bullet over enough Unique to get just about 1300 fps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHAlGk0lOpE

[Wind]

Hey there Joe --

Sent you a picture via e-mail. If you ever get out this way you would be welcome. Give me some notice and I'll get some ammunition together for you!!

I'd say yes, you could get 600 yards with your 45 Colt. I can get 400 yards with my 32-20 and 25-20, both with Marbles tang sights. I have sight to spare on the 32-20. Having a barrel length of 24" would help with the sight radius, and something along the lines of a mid-range tang sight would also be helpful. Enough rear sight is the critical link.

In this series we're shooting a medium hardcast , bevel base, 250 grain Lee bullet, lubed with my pan lube concoction, over 10 grains of Unique. They are doing a very consistent 1320 feet per second. Could just as easily be a 45 Colt load. The dinger is three pieces of 6" well pipe, 32" long.

I've got a series of 240 grainers to develop and then some 265 grainers with gas checks. Will try to get a report back as the work progresses. It's hard work, but somebodies got to do it. Figure it to be me and Whit...

Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind

[J Miller]

Wind,

I got the pic. Thanks, it worked perfectly.

I've got several loads I'd love to try at longer ranges. My Marlin only has a 20" barrel though. The only sights on it now are the factory barrel sights. That will change eventually.

Joe

[Griff]

Very nice. I can get 300 yards across the back pasture... but I gotta chase the neighbors cows outta that portion of his pasture to make sure I don't buy one by mistake... er... mis-steak... or is that no-mis-steak?

Fairly nice public range wihin ½ hour drive with 200 yard range... so I usually go there. Wish I had longer one so I could play with the Sharps more. I'm changing companies (if the other folks will have me back), maybe I can get up to your neck of the country with some fore-knowledge!

Nice shootin'. 400 yards off sticks is definitely good shootin', with ANY levergun.

[Ysabel Kid]

That looks like fun.

Joe

Understatement!!!

[Dewight]

Nice shooting. Tell us about your shooting sticks.

[Wind]

Hey ya'll -- Thanks for the kind words...

Griff -- I know just what you mean!!

Dewight -- I build and market them under the name Okanogan Shooting Sticks. Shoot me an e-mail address and I can send you a brochure. We are going to put them on the "lady that does the leather" website which she is in the middle of remodeling. It's http://www.purdygear.com. Have a drool rag handy. There is a little more information at http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... oard=157.0 They should also be coming out in ads in a few national shooting magazines after November. They offer great support, are easy to adjust, and look good to boot. Hope this helps.

Best regards. Wind

[1886]

The CB .38-55 is a winner. Marlin did that one right! Many wear a Badger barrel. 1886.

[w30wcf]

Whit, THank you for the post. NEAT! Wind nice pics and dingers! Nice shooting!
Shooting longer distances with the old leverguns in vintage calibers is one of my top favorite shooting sports.

Joe,
Speaking of the 45 Colt here's a pic of John Boy with his Henry in that chambering.
He hit two 500 meter ram targets (bullet impacts visible) in a row after firing several sighter shots.
As I recall, he was using the 452190 Lyman bullet and 8 grs. of Unique.



w30wcf

[J Miller]

John,

The Lyman 454190 over 8.0grs Unique is so old fashioned it's archaic. Shouldn't he be using something like True Glow 452 Hi-Zip powder under some pointy rubber tipped boo-lit????

Just funnin. That load is about as factory as you can get without buying factory ammo. I have quite a bit of that bullet loaded but the bullets are from different makers. Not enough of any one brand to be consistent. However I do have an ancient Ideal mold for that bullet that makes really nice ones. I just gotta get set up to cast.

A question, what do you think of using the currently made Remington 250gr .45 Colt factory type bullet at longer ranges? Is is consistent enough for that?

Joe

[Old Savage]

Great shooting! The bullet is going to go somewhere so of course it is possible to hit things ouuuuttttt there. Just have to work on it.

Now the trick would be to hit things where they should be hit at unknown long distances on the first shot.

[RIHMFIRE]

great shooting guys
now thats something i would like to try!

[w30wcf]

Joe,
Several years ago I bought a box of the Remington hollow based bullets and tried them in my Marlin 45 Colt Cowboy.
I used W231 in 7.1 gr. charges which is the Winchester recommended load. They shot very well at 100 yards...certainly on par with the 452190. If I recall correctly, a couple of years ago on one of my Ridgway trips, I shot that Remington bullet / 231 combo at 300 meters at the steel Javelina and the accuracy held pretty well.

I still have about 20 or so Remington bullets left so sometime, probably next year, I'll give them a try at the 500 meter ram.

w30wcf

[J Miller]

John,

I've got a couple hundred of those Remington bullets left in the last 500 bulk pack I bought. I've also got quite a few of the Lymans and Rems loaded.
What I need to do I find a place where I can shoot to at least 100 yards to practice. Well, a place that's reasonably close anyway.

Then I need to condense my loads to one or the other and work towards consistency.

Lotsa fun ain't it?

Joe

[Stillwater]

Wind:
That Okanogan Valley landscape sure looks inviting. I haven't seen it since 1988, but I will be seeing it soon.

Bill AKA heliflyer36