OT - Muzzle loaders

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:10 am

Any of you gents have any experience in building rifles from kits? Any suggestions on kits?

Thanks,

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:34 am

There are kits, and then there are "kits". A "kit" is basically a largely-unshaped, uninletted hunk of wood plus parts, and these are a great challenge to someone who's never built a rifle. I'd wager that most of these end up unfinished, in a closet. Other kits are really more just assembly and finishing projects, and can be completed by anyone with basic hand-tool skills and patience. These are the ones I'd recommend for a beginner, as they can give you a good idea of what goes into a real build.

I'd suggest the Lyman Great Plains Rifle kit. The stock is 90% shaped and inletted, the parts are pretty good quality, and with a bit of time and care you can end up with a very nice, fairly authentic Hawken-style rifle.

gunslinger598 · Post by **gunslinger598** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:05 am

I've beeen looking over some ofthe kits online the past few days myself. Prices ranging from 188.00 to about 359.00. One site even offered every piece custom including some extremely nice woodwork on the stocks.

I just don't know enough about muzzle loaders to decide what I want for sure yet. I'm thinking the Hawkens style in .54 cal. Then the question comes up percussion or flint which I don't know about either.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:08 am

If you haven't already done so, you might want to coon-finger a completed muzzleloader, of the type you're contemplating building, before ordering a kit.

The various styles (Hawken, , Trade Gun, Squirrel Rifle, Buggy Rifle, etc) all handle and weigh differently, and usually have different barrel lengths.

The ones built on 1" or larger octagon barrels are generally much heavier than you'd expect.

Junior · Post by **Junior** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:04 am

Pete44ru gave you some good advice. You should also check around for guys who shoot traditional-style muzzleloaders and go to a shoot. They'd be glad to let you shoot their rifles. If you don't, you might find yourself spending lots of money and even more time on a rifle you don't enjoy shooting.

CraigC · Post by **CraigC** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:27 am

You definitely want to handle a few before spending your money. I love the Pennsylvania and Kentucky long rifles but the few I handled were not as comfortable as the Lyman Great Plains rifle, which is what I ended up with. Mine is in .54 caliber with the slow 60" twist for patched roundballs and percussion ignition. So far, I really like it!

It's always been my understanding that flintlocks were a little more hardcore and probably not the best for your first muzzleloader.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:53 am

For Long Rifle kits, Jim Chambers is highly regarded(probably not ideal for a beginner). For less money, Jack Garner's Tennessee Valley Manufacturing kits seem well worth the value. He offers the Tennessee Rifle at a reasonable cost(left hand versions available

). I just bought his Left handed Lancaster Kit and it is being assembled by a local builder.

So many options...what style of rifle, or did I miss that? Though no longer offered as a kit, I really like the T/C Renegade in 54 Cal. It has the big 1" across the flats barrel but at 26" long and 54 Cal. it is not overly heavy. Also was available in lefty. Hold and shoots nice and if you can find one it is a good way to go.

Lots of options with foreign made rifles(Traditions, etc).

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:06 am

Can anyone explain in a very summarized fashion just what are the primary differences between a Hawken/Plains rifle, a Pennsylvania, a Virginia rifle...?

Maybe its me, but I've looked and looked at different pics and just can't tell that there is that big of a difference.

While I'd love to be able to handle the different styles, I just don't think thats possible...at least not in a short time frame.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:18 am

They look as different as a Marlin, Winchester, Whitney, etc...

What you gonna REALLY use it for?

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:45 am

Hobie wrote:They look as different as a Marlin, Winchester, Whitney, etc...

What you gonna REALLY use it for?

Why, shooting of course!

Actually, I just want to enjoy the building process more than anything.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:48 am

El Mac wrote:
Hobie wrote:They look as different as a Marlin, Winchester, Whitney, etc...

What you gonna REALLY use it for?
Why, shooting of course!

Actually, I just want to enjoy the building process more than anything.

So, do you want a regional thing or are you wedded to the idea of a mountain man?

Honestly, making something that has a personal connection will be better in the long run. You might get so hooked on it that you'll hang out here, too.

DerekR · Post by **DerekR** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:21 pm

Track of the Wolf has a lot of kits, and you can pay them to do some of the more advanced work. I've always wanted to do one also, but i'll probably start with a Lyman Great Plains kit first. One of these days I'd like to make a Southern Long Rifle in .36 caliber and maybe a Jaeger in .54 caliber. I'd then be set for everything from squirrels to whitetail!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:55 pm

Detailed variations aside, the Kentucky/Pennsylvania/Tennessee rifles are full stocked, long barrelled rifles. Usuallly not larger than .50 caliber with .40s and .36 or .32s in greater abundance. Well suited to the more plentiful small game of the areas thhey're named for. Differences in drop @ comb, stock shape, etc allow for regional preferences. The Tennessee rifles are lilkely to be found in a larrger bore more often.

The Hawken or "Plains" rifles are usually shorter barrelled (28" being comman), half-stocked, larger bores of .50 or .54. The are really derivatives of the German "Jager" rifles. Well suited to dangerous game.

I built my first rifle from a T/C Hawken kit, fairly simple for a beginner. Don't know if they're still available.

Visit the Dixie Gun Works website for detailed and fairly comprehensive listings and descriptions.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:08 pm

This thread got me to thinkin. I went and looked on Track of the Wolf at their kits. They say their trade gun is their best beginner gun. It takes about 40 hours to complete for the first time builder.
I'm thinking about a .62 cal (20 ga.) with a 36" barrel.

Rusty <><

Junior · Post by **Junior** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:22 pm

Rusty wrote:This thread got me to thinkin.

Me too. Thanks to Griff, I've been on the DGW site doing serious thinkin for two solid hours. I don't like my homemade shot & powder holders for my T-C 12 ga muzzleloader shotgun, so I've been looking at the shot pouches on DGW. I don't like the way they operate plus the smallest is 1 1/4 oz, and I need 1 oz for squirrels. Got to be a way to make my own. Ideas?????

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:51 pm

About 20 years ago I bought a CVA Hawken kit from Gander Mountain, it was a Spanish made kit with 1 in 36 twist octogon barrel so great with round balls, the barrel was white so used browning liquid to be more period correct, took a lot of filing and polishing of brass trigger guard, butt plate, and end cap but came out pretty decent. Trigger was lose but 2 nylon washers took care of that. Wood was birch so had to stain before oiling. AT $69.00 on clearance I thought it was worth it. Sorry I sold it, now have a an inline that I bought for $80.00 NIB but so ugly I haven't shot it since new about 4 years ago.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:27 pm

GANJIRO wrote:... I haven't shot it since new about 4 years ago.

Gonna make me cry man. Shoot them guns!

It's not their fault they're ugly.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:27 pm

Junior,

I just measure out shot charges for my 12 ga. (.735") musket. They can be carried in film cannisters OR wrapped in newspaper cylinders.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:30 pm

[Detailed variations aside, the Kentucky/Pennsylvania/Tennessee rifles are full stocked, long barrelled rifles. Usuallly not larger than .50 caliber with .40s and .36 or .32s in greater abundance.]

The smaller bores are sometimes referred to as "Squirrel Rifles", and these "State named" rifles (my term) came about due to immigrants from different parts of Europe(with their own regional styles) settling in different areas of the US, like the Pennsylvania Dutch, etc.

The Hawken or "Plains" rifles are usually shorter barrelled (28" being comman), half-stocked, larger bores of .50 or .54.

The true Hawken (Hawken clone) will exhibit two barrel retaining wedges in the forend, due to the stouter recoil over & above previous long rifles.

"Buggy Rifles" are extremely short-barreled, usually under-hammered, carbines developed to carry under the seat of a horse carriage/buckboard/buggy.

If you want a muzzloading rifle kit for: 1) The experience of the build, and 2) something to "just shoot" - you'd be hard pressed to start with anything other than a .45 or .50 caliber standard sidehammer rifle.
Those calibers have the most variation in availble across-the-counter components - and can be loaded up or down or most game, if that is your choice.

The only other real choice you should decide on, is: what exactly do you intend to use for a projectile? Your answer is important, because the rifling twist, in the barrel, is different for differing types.

Round balls w/cloth patch take a slow twist for best results, say 1 turn in 60".
Conicals (Minie balls, Maxiballs, other commercial slugs) work most accurately with a faster twist, say 1 in 20".
Some barrels are made with a compromise twists, somewhere in between, and yet others are made with a "gain" twist - starting with a slow twist but changing towards the muzzle.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:41 pm

Rusty wrote:This thread got me to thinkin. I went and looked on Track of the Wolf at their kits. They say their trade gun is their best beginner gun. It takes about 40 hours to complete for the first time builder.
I'm thinking about a .62 cal (20 ga.) with a 36" barrel.

Rusty <><

Trade guns are light and handy, and they can make great field guns. But be aware of the fact that they are smoothbores, not rifles. Now, this is great in that it allows you to shoot shot loads for small game or birds, and round ball for bigger stuff, but the longrange accuracy of a good rifle will not be there. A great deal of load development (usually) and practice (most trade guns, like the shotguns they are, have no rear sight) will give you deer-shooting accuracy to around 50 yards, and there's no doubt that .62 ball packs a punch.

I played seriously with smoothbore trade guns and fowlers for about 10 years, loved them, and killed several deer and oodles of small game with them, but the longest-range deer kill I got was 40 yards, and I was glad it was no longer than that. If you're not up to the work it takes to get good with a trade gun, stick to a rifle, which will give you "good enough" accuracy out to at least 80 or 100 yards with comparative ease..

El Mac · Post by **El Mac** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:47 pm

Thanks to Griff and Pete...thats the info I was looking for. And thanks to all the others with your tips and thoughts.

This looks to be a most interesting project. Probably take me all winter to get it done. But it should be worth it...