Gunsmithing question - drilling and tapping

[shooter]

What is a reasonable price for having a Win. 94 drilled and tapped for a Williams receiver sight? I've never had any professional work done on any of my guns. All the receiver sights I have were already on the guns when I acquired them. My buddy wants a Williams for his 94, and I want to make sure he doesn't pay too much for the drilling and tapping. It seems like a fairly simple process.

[jdad]

Unfortunately it can be anywhere from $20 per hole to $50 per hole. It all depends on their rate schedules.....setup fees, minimum fees, etc.

[pokey]

winchester model 94s made after 1952 or so, should be drilled and tapped from
the factory. if your buddy has one older than that, he might rethink making holes
in what may be a rifle worth some money. just my opinion you understand.

oh and, extra holes reduce the price of older winnies to the tune of about 100.00
per hole.

[Bill_Rights]

Here's a dumb question from a new guy who has zero interest in older, collectible firearms: Why wouldn't you take it to your nearest full-service "technical" machine shop? (By "technical" I mean shops that work on a wide variety of parts and manufacturing, not just automobile engines. It may be that you would need to travel to the outskirts of a larger city or major town to find such a shop - they can't get enough business to make a go of it in every small town.)

To take it to a generalist machine shop here's what you need:
- Strip down the receiver as far as it'll come apart
- You need to know the general category of the metal, alloy, heat treatment and such of the receiver metal
- Data on where the holes are to be placed (Does the sight come with a template or drawing showing where to put the holes?)
- Better call ahead to
......... - Make sure they have the tap they'll need, if its a weird size like 6-48 or something
......... - Arrange a time to do it while you wait

Any good shop can use a locating center on a milling machine and find a reference, then index over to where the holes need to be, drill a pilot hole (or dimple) with a starter drill, drill the tap clearance hole and, while still over each hole, use a center in the mill chuck to align the tap tool itself for perfect hand tapping. They'll want to use some oil or cutting fluid. Should be no big deal - take 15 minutes for both holes.

The biggest problem I see is clamping the receiver in the mill's vice. A square-jawed vice won't grip a tappering receiver body properly. I have no answer on that one.

By the way, the need to know the kind of metal the receiver is made of is just so the machinist can select the drill bit spindle speed and feed rate (and kind of cutting fluid/oil). They're probably going to do a job like this by hand-feed of the bit, by feel. So they only need a general category of metal type. But it is important. Believe it or not, being too careful and feeding a cutting bit too slowly is every bit as bad as going too fast. A machinist knows this.

[Leverdude]

For things like this I use a local clock shop. Its less than a mile away & alot easier than a real smith to deal with time wise. I'd expect to pay$40 or so I think from him.

[COSteve]

The reason one would have to go to a gunshop isn't so much that its a firearm vs a clock or complex machined part but rather because firearms use different threads than most other items so finding someone who has the proper drill and tap to produce a couple of 6-40 holes becomes the limiting issue.

[AJMD429]

Here's a dumb question from a new guy who has zero interest in older, collectible firearms: Why wouldn't you take it to your nearest full-service "technical" machine shop?

Our local (small town) gunsmith would often send threading projects and so on to the machinist a couple doors down the street, so that is a good question.

It seems like 'gunsmithing' really involves three parts - general metalworking, general woodworking, and firearms-specific work such as setting headspace, etc. I'd think any good machinist could do 90% of the metalworking, once the job is 'defined' for them. They may not know the 'in my experience' part of where the best place is to drill the sight mounting holes, but if that information is known or can be found out by the customer, the rest is pretty basic machining. As for 'non-standard' threads and such, you would likely have to supply the proper tap; I'd think the drill sizes would be covered in their inventory. I'd also bet that most machinists have strong preferences as to brands of taps, so showing up with one they think is junk might have them uttering 'disclaimers' about problems if it breaks, etc.

I'd probably pre-cut some wood blocks or wrap the receiver in leather, to facilitate the machinist handling the receiver; just ask them what would work best for their needs and not be too much in the way. I'd probably wrap the barrel and cap/plug the muzzle, as well.

[Pete44ru]

Although I do my own, gunsmiths in my state charge about $20/hole.

FWIW, in my experience, many machine shops won't take on small jobs - but that could be because my state's fairly urbanized - AND - I would think that if they didn't already have the specialized tap size, the cost would be added to YOUR job, if it was accepted.

Another thing to think about is "quality" - I've seen more than one D/T hole that had "cratered" edges (some filed off/smooth) because the driller drilled too fast (to get the job "over", presumeably).
That particular butchery is usually only spotted if the sight or scope base is removed for inspection or other reason, so most go unnoticed for years.

I've also seen butchered jobs, because the person drilling the holes drilled both holes at the same time (the sight base was clamped as a guide), ILO D/T each hole as a separate ops, the second after the first had it's screw binding the sight base; and because the sight base wasn/t trued/leveled with the receiver top.

It sounds easy, doesn't it ?:
"How much do ya want to pop two little holes in my gun ?

.

[Leverdude]

The reason one would have to go to a gunshop isn't so much that its a firearm vs a clock or complex machined part but rather because firearms use different threads than most other items so finding someone who has the proper drill and tap to produce a couple of 6-40 holes becomes the limiting issue.

I dont know Steve if all clock shops could or would do it. This particular guy does alot of minor smithing work & when I first found him & told him I was surprised he did this stuff his answer was that they have alot in common both dealing with precision metal working.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

The other thing to consider is if you ask them to work on a receiver for money you are asking them to do something that is illegal.
Case in point, there was a local body shop that did powder coating. They started doing powder coating on gun parts, like EBR things. ATF told them to cease or get an FFL.

[O.S.O.K.]

Yeah, take it to a gunsmith. It will be legal and have the best chance of being done right.

With outfits like Brownell's though, if you have a basic shop set-up, you can get the drill/tap set for about what the job will cost.

But I want to add that if this 94 isn't d&t'd already, its probably not a very good idea to add holes - better to sell the rifle and buy a newer model and use the difference that you make on it to buy the sights.

[Charles]

Drilling and taping are basic machine shop skills, used in many trades. There is no reason a machinest or clock guy could not drill and tap the holes..IF

1. They had the right taps
2. They understood where the holes are supposed to be.

Gunsmiths have the right taps and should know where the holes are supposed to go. That said, I have had gunsmiths screw up this most simple of jobs. That is why I do it all myself these days.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Like Charles, I just do it myself.

Locate the hole.


Center drill


Drill and tap using the same set up


Mount your sight and go shooting


No big deal. The most important thing to remember is to take your time getting the sight exactly where you want
Then transfer punch the first location using the sight as a guide. Drill and tap that hole,Install the sight using only one screw.
Then transfer punch the second hole,remove the sight and d&t that hole and you are done. GO SHOOTIN!!!

[Charles]

After I have located the base, I use a machinst clamp and clamp it to the receiver. I then take it to the drill press and make certain everything is level and the drill is 90 degrees to the metal. I take a drill bit that is a slip fit in the mount holes and with the shank down make certain everything is plumb and level and it inters the mount hole without binding. I then reverse the bit and turn the power on. I just touch it to the metal to give me a good centered dimple for the real drill bit. I then drill the hole and tap it with an old B-Square tap wrench with the sliding pilot that fits in the drill check. Clean out the hole and screw the base down. Remove the clamp and do the other hole.

In the scores I have done, I have never had a canted sight or scope mount. Recently I was reading an article on the subject where the author made it sound like it was all but impossible to do the job corrrectly without one of the Forster high dollar jigs. Total bull!

[J Miller]

After I have located the base, I use a machinst clamp and clamp it to the receiver. I then take it to the drill press and make certain everything is level and the drill is 90 degrees to the metal. I take a drill bit that is a slip fit in the mount holes and with the shank down make certain everything is plumb and level and it inters the mount hole without binding. I then reverse the bit and turn the power on. I just touch it to the metal to give me a good centered dimple for the real drill bit. I then drill the hole and tap it with an old B-Square tap wrench with the sliding pilot that fits in the drill check. Clean out the hole and screw the base down. Remove the clamp and do the other hole.

In the scores I have done, I have never had a canted sight or scope mount. Recently I was reading an article on the subject where the author made it sound like it was all but impossible to do the job corrrectly without one of the Forster high dollar jigs. Total bull!

The gun butcher that did the holes in the barrel for the sights on my Marlin MR7 used the Forster jig and STILL screwed all the holes up.
I'm glad I'm as old as I am, because I've pretty much given up on gunsmiths in general. I know there are good ones, but they are so few and far between as to be an endangered species.
If I can't do it myself, it generally don't get done.

Joe

[Grizz]

Thanks for the DIY photos. I'm saving them. Here is another reference on doing the work with good illustrations:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tips/index.htm

Grizz

[COSteve]

Drilling and taping are basic machine shop skills, used in many trades. There is no reason a machinest or clock guy could not drill and tap the holes..IF

1. They had the right taps
2. They understood where the holes are supposed to be.

Gunsmiths have the right taps and should know where the holes are supposed to go. That said, I have had gunsmiths screw up this most simple of jobs. That is why I do it all myself these days.

I absolutely agree that the best approach is to do it yourself because it is very simple to do. Brownell's sells both the correct taps and drill sizes.

I got this saddle ring from Numrich's for $4,



bought the drill and tap from Brownell's for about $12,



and mounted it myself in 10 minutes.



I also d&t'd my Henry receiver cover to mount my Williams FP sight on it. Simple as pie.

[pokey]

Like Charles, I just do it myself.

Locate the hole.


Center drill


Drill and tap using the same set up


Mount your sight and go shooting


No big deal. The most important thing to remember is to take your time getting the sight exactly where you want
Then transfer punch the first location using the sight as a guide. Drill and tap that hole,Install the sight using only one screw.
Then transfer punch the second hole,remove the sight and d&t that hole and you are done. GO SHOOTIN!!!

nice setup, chuck.
wish my shop was as neat and clean as yours.