tube explosion .44 magnum levergun!

[w30wcf]

Scroll down the thread for information and pics.
Stay safe!
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/sho ... hp?t=73196

w30wcf

[.45colt]

Wow, that Shooter was very fortunate.thank's for posting this. accidents can and do happen.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I've been on a difficult bullet hunt lately just so I can avoid this situation. I think this is perhaps not a big issue for people shooting the lighter stuff like 25-20 or 32-20, etc. But heavy bullets and sharp recoil in a large caliber rifle, where the larger cases cause the very straight end-to-end lineup of the cartridges, makes me nervous.

I've recently purchased a box of the Swift A-Frame 400gr .458" bullets to test the alignment. They are a flat point but not with a huge meplat ... a medium compromise meplat of sorts. And I definitely would not load using Federal primers in this situation. Nothing against Federal, but I'll take the extra margin of hardness or toughness in a Winchester or CCI primer. I've decided not to load the NorthFork 400gr anymore for this very reason ... slightly too small a meplat for my application.

[J Miller]

Those were disturbing pictures.

After reading the thread, and thinking about the KABOOM'd magazine full of .44s then looking at the pics of the clear tube and the various cartridges in it, here is the comment I made there:

muskeg13,

I'm also glad your injuries were not more severe. w30wcf asked about the possibility of a high primer so I won't duplicate his question.

I do have a thought about bullet shapes though. Many of the supposedly "flat nose" bullets are actually convex. They have a slight point rather than being flat. Did those bullets you used have such a shape?

I have shot bullets with such a convex nose in my in my 45 Colt lever guns and it concerns me. That slight point could set right up against the primer in front of it. The clear tube pics actually verify this. And if there was a slightly high primer, the combination might be the cause of the magazine KABOOM.


Joe

I do believe I will quit shooting these convex nosed bullets.

Joe

[76/444]

Well,... I looked at the pics. First such incident I have ever seen pics of. The lower right pic shows a case with a primer strike very plain. The bullet next to that case also shows a firing pin indentation on its nose as well. Something seems weird to me.


I think the reference to federal primers being a problem is overrated. I have shot thousands of Fed Factory ammo without incident.

Personally, I think someone needed to double check the depth of their primers when loading those up. Or, maybe how much they reamed the pockets.




just one man's opinion.

[Blaine]

Well,... I looked at the pics. First such incident I have ever seen pics of. The lower right pic shows a case with a primer strike very plain. The bullet next to that case also shows a firing pin indentation on its nose as well. Something seems weird to me.


I think the reference to federal primers being a problem is overrated. I have shot thousands of Fed Factory ammo without incident.

Personally, I think someone needed to double check the depth of their primers when loading those up. Or, maybe how much they reamed the pockets.





just one man's opinion.

+1....Someone had really bad luck, and stuff will happen.

[Nath]

Well,... I looked at the pics. First such incident I have ever seen pics of. The lower right pic shows a case with a primer strike very plain. The bullet next to that case also shows a firing pin indentation on its nose as well. Something seems weird to me.


I think the reference to federal primers being a problem is overrated. I have shot thousands of Fed Factory ammo without incident.

Personally, I think someone needed to double check the depth of their primers when loading those up. Or, maybe how much they reamed the pockets.




just one man's opinion.

I just don't get this. Just how did that pin strike mark get on that primer??? How do know it was not subjected to a light strike and then put in the mag again rather than discarded?

Nath.

[J Miller]

That was not a firing pin strike on the primer. The outer ring of the primer cup was pushed in around the anvil by the bullet. The dimple you see is where the point of the anvil is.

Joe

[milton]

That is why I try to load rifle primers in my straight wall handgun cases that are used in my lever guns.may not be worth a hill of beans but I just don't like pistol primers in a rifle/carbine with a tube magazine! I bet he was also using a fast powder.I try to get as slow a powder as possible into these little pistol cases.

[Nath]

That was not a firing pin strike on the primer. The outer ring of the primer cup was pushed in around the anvil by the bullet. The dimple you see is where the point of the anvil is.

Joe

Thanks Joe, I can see it now

N.

[Buck Elliott]

That is why I try to load rifle primers in my straight wall handgun cases that are used in my lever guns.may not be worth a hill of beans but I just don't like pistol primers in a rifle/carbine with a tube magazine! I bet he was also using a fast powder.I try to get as slow a powder as possible into these little pistol cases.

Large Rifle primers are TOO TALL for proper seating in pistol-cartridge cases, with the exception of some early .454 Casull cases, and some later .475 and .500 caliber rounds.

SMALL pistol & SMALL rifle primers are the same height.

[Old Savage]

So what happened there? What set off the first one. I had a Remington 12 Gauge shotshell go off in the tube of an Ithaca Model 37 when I sharply worked the slide at waist level. The rim of the bottom ejecting shell being thrown down struck the primer of the shell in the tube which went off. Powder burn (light) on the slide hand and the spring, follower and plug were destroyed but the tube was unharmed - I just replaced the damage parts and continued to use it. We have fired thousands of rounds through that gun. The gun was coming backward and the shell was going slightly forward as they do.

[milton]

Buck wrote:
Large Rifle primers are TOO TALL for proper seating in pistol-cartridge cases, with the exception of some early .454 Casull cases, and some later .475 and .500 caliber rounds.

Sorry ,I meant to say the smaller rounds that use small pistol/rifle primers!

[JimT]

taken from elsewhere on the web:

Mic McPherson wrote an article in the January 2005 issue of "The Accurate Rifle" where he destroyed a Marlin Levergun in .45-70 because he had not fully loaded a round into the magazine, and the edge of a very hard cast bullet was sitting across the primer of the preceeding cartridge and it detonated due to recoil forces. He was using +P 45-70 loads (56 gr H322, 420 gr hard cast FP) when this occurred. The detonation bent out the tube, but did not rupture it, and it drove another cartridge behind the loading spring, with the lever closed. The action was frozen shut as well. Post mortem revealed that only 12 gr of the powder had ignited, because pressure had not built normally due to the round being unconfined, and secondary ignition had not taken place, prior to the case rupturing. All in all, a very interesting and eye opening article as well. He does say that the only reason this happened was because of improperly loading the cartridges into the rifle, and Marlin does warn of this in their literature sold with the rifle.

[J Miller]

taken from elsewhere on the web:

Mic McPherson wrote an article in the January 2005 issue of "The Accurate Rifle" where he destroyed a Marlin Levergun in .45-70 because he had not fully loaded a round into the magazine, and the edge of a very hard cast bullet was sitting across the primer of the preceeding cartridge and it detonated due to recoil forces. He was using +P 45-70 loads (56 gr H322, 420 gr hard cast FP) when this occurred. The detonation bent out the tube, but did not rupture it, and it drove another cartridge behind the loading spring, with the lever closed. The action was frozen shut as well. Post mortem revealed that only 12 gr of the powder had ignited, because pressure had not built normally due to the round being unconfined, and secondary ignition had not taken place, prior to the case rupturing. All in all, a very interesting and eye opening article as well. He does say that the only reason this happened was because of improperly loading the cartridges into the rifle, and Marlin does warn of this in their literature sold with the rifle.

Just for the education of it, I'm gonna have to dig out my Marlin 1894 owners manual and see what it says. My memory banks are deficient on this issue.

Jim, thanks for posing this.

Joe

[JimT]

The owner's manual for the 336, 444 and 1985 says:

"Be sure that the last cartridge is completely inside the loading port before preparing to fire, or a jammed action may result (See H)."

[claybob86]

I routinely shoot Remington 170 gr. JSPs with a very round nose in a .30-30. No problems. But after looking at how they line up in the magazine and reading this thread, I might have a flinch next time I shoot it!

[Old Savage]

OK Miller now that could make sense and the rest being driven by the discharging bullet deforming the bullet certainly exceeds anything that could happen with recoil.

[J Miller]

The owner's manual for the 336, 444 and 1985 says:

"Be sure that the last cartridge is completely inside the loading port before preparing to fire, or a jammed action may result (See H)."

I looked in my 1894 owners manual and it says the exact same thing.

OK Miller now that could make sense and the rest being driven by the discharging bullet deforming the bullet certainly exceeds anything that could happen with recoil.

My curiosity though is what caused the first round to fire?
Besides the theory I stated above there is one other that has come to mind.
If a piece of dirt or debris temporarily jammed a cartridge in the magazine, and then it dislodged when the first round was fired, the resulting impact may have fired the primer.
I have had this exact thing happen with a Win 94 in 30-30 I'd bought used. I didn't know it but the inside of the magazine and follower was rusted and it stuck. I felt the rounds suddenly move back.
After cleaning it worked fine.

Another theory.

Joe

[Leverdude]

I think the powder involved might matter in the end result. McPherson's accident happened with a slow powder while this other guy with the 44 probably was burning faster stuff.
I think this guy might have a bit of bad luck too. I'v tried to pop primers on purpose before with hammers & bullets and its not that easy with anything except a FMJ.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I think the powder involved might matter in the end result. McPherson's accident happened with a slow powder while this other guy with the 44 probably was burning faster stuff.

I think it was mentioned that the load was 10 grains of Unique? So a faster handgun powder was in the rounds.

[milton]

The .44's that were in the article were loaded with Unique.

Ya beat me Rimfire!

[Malamute]

Interesting that the older Winchester tubes were seamed, not welded. If a chain fire happened, the tube would open up along the seam.

Making a seam cut along the length of the tube may not be a bad idea, tho the occurance is rare.

I think the primers are more likely an isue than the powder.

[milton]

Has anybody seen the article in the Nov. 2006 Rifle magazine by R.W. Ballou? It is named -Bullets,Primers and Tubular Magazine Safety

[AJMD429]

Large Rifle primers are TOO TALL for proper seating in pistol-cartridge cases, with the exception of some early .454 Casull cases, and some later .475 and .500 caliber rounds.

...and I suppose using them would then actually make matters worse...!

The owner's manual for the 336, 444 and 1985 says:
"Be sure that the last cartridge is completely inside the loading port before preparing to fire, or a jammed action may result (See H)."

That makes sense - that 'angled' round with the rim just inside the loading gate would certainly impinge on the next one's primer, especially as the magazine tubes on the big bores are bulged to the left under the forend (to allow loading) which lets the nose be to the left as well as angled!

Makes me want to always use a port-loaded tube like on the .32 H&R Marlins. Getting that last round fully into the magazine isn't easy in field conditions.

I routinely shoot Remington 170 gr. JSPs with a very round nose in a .30-30. No problems. But after looking at how they line up in the magazine and reading this thread, I might have a flinch next time I shoot it!

Yeah - and what about the .35 Remington FACTORY loaded 150 grainers - very 'pointy' indeed!

[Leverdude]

I think the powder involved might matter in the end result. McPherson's accident happened with a slow powder while this other guy with the 44 probably was burning faster stuff.

I think it was mentioned that the load was 10 grains of Unique? So a faster handgun powder was in the rounds.

Makes sense to me that unique would be more violent than 322.

[KSRtrd]

Yeppers very often these firearm blow up stories include to often high or the wrong primer in reloads. I have learned the margin of error in reloading is zero. Learning tool stuff like this makes it this forum worth the trouble.

[Leverdude]

I'm surprised myself by the frequency I see people ask about LR primers in a pistol case or see people suggest it. I am rather new to reloading but one of the first things I noticed was that they are taller. Not by measuring but by reading.
I can see some confusion with something like a 44/40 or 38/40 because all the brass I'v encountered so far is made for LP but they are rifle calibers. Its an individuals responsibility to know these things if they choose to build their own ammunition. Its not just my life that could be changed by an accident.

[oic0]

One thing I wonder about, even if you seated the primer high, wouldn't the impact from the recoil just fully seat the primer?

I have the cheap little lee loader kit. Know how it loads primers? the primer sits on a little pedestal, the cartridge centers above it, then you beat the bejeezus out of it with a hammer until the primer goes in the pocket. I have managed to set one off but that was because the case was stuck in the forming die pretty well with no lube and it let go all at once when I hit it pretty darn hard. That was a violent shocking smack though amplified by the case finally letting go and gaining momentum on the way down. I can not set one off even with pretty good whacks from a mallet though, with a primer shaped flat piece putting all of the pressure on the primer. It takes one really sharp strong whack, one that would probably break my finger and the primer shaped piece goes inside the primer pocket to crush the primer without being stopped or blunted by the case as a flat nosed bullet would be.
The first time I loaded a primer with this method it was scary. They are some tough **** though and now I don't even think twice before giving it a strong whack with a 24oz dead blow hammer (which I am sure is tempered by setting one off and finding it to be a non-event, except the stink that lingers and soot on my hands).

[Rimfire McNutjob]

One thing I wonder about, even if you seated the primer high, wouldn't the impact from the recoil just fully seat the primer?

I think there was some concern that an LR primer is taller and when fully seated in an LP pocket, will still ride high out of the end of the cartridge. If one made that mistake, one gets a high primer with nowhere to go but bang.

[J Miller]

One thing I wonder about, even if you seated the primer high, wouldn't the impact from the recoil just fully seat the primer?

I think there was some concern that an LR primer is taller and when fully seated in an LP pocket, will still ride high out of the end of the cartridge. If one made that mistake, one gets a high primer with nowhere to go but bang.

This is absolutely true. Mid last year I purchased some MagTech LR primers. They are several thousands shorter than standard American LR primers. I wondered if I might use some in my .45 Colt rifle loads. Not a chance. No matter how much seating pressure I put on them with the built in ram prime on my Co-AX press they still sat proud of the case head.
The only way to properly use LR primers in a case made for LP primers would be to deepen the primer pocket.

Joe

[Chas.]

One thing I wonder about, even if you seated the primer high, wouldn't the impact from the recoil just fully seat the primer?

I think there was some concern that an LR primer is taller and when fully seated in an LP pocket, will still ride high out of the end of the cartridge. If one made that mistake, one gets a high primer with nowhere to go but bang.

Or the proper primer was used but the pocket wasn't cleaned and due to debris in the pocket, it failed to completely seat.

[Rifleman336]

Gosh, I never it'd ever, go off that bad!!! It's the little details that get ya.

Rifleman 336

[Landric]

I have been following this thread on Cast Boolits also. I recently ordered a Rossi 92 in .357 Magnum (hopefully mine will turn out to be one of the good ones). My only other levergun at the moment is a Winchester 94 in .30-30. I've been wanting a pistol caliber levergun for a long time, and I finally decided to take the plunge. My plan is to load ammunition for the Rossi using small rifle primers. Hopefully I'll be able to get a OAL using .38 Special brass to feed reliably since I have huge volumes of brass and my .357 Mag brass is in much shorter supply and much more expensive to replace. I'm an experienced handloader with lots of different primer experimentation under my belt, so I'm sure I can come up with a proper load for the Rossi. I'm really looking forward to it.

This is my first post on this forum and I'm really impressed with the information available here. I expect I'll be getting myself more leverguns in the future, as I've recently been on a revolver and carbine kick.

[Bogie35]

Welcome Landric! Make yourself at home. I believe you will add a lot to, and get a lot from, our forum. Thanks for posting!

bogie

[J Miller]

After reading the posts over on Cast Boolet forum here is my diagnosis.

Based on what the victim of the magazine KABOOM has posted I believe the cause was a high primer. He was using Federal primers which are the most sensitive, but they still take an impact to go bang.
He said he cannot say for positive a high primer didn't slip though.

That is the only thing that makes sense.

Joe

[Winnetou]

One naturally considers the possibility of a high primer in cases like this, but can that really lead to discharge in a magazine tube loaded with flat-nose bullets? A primer is designed to fire when the central portion of the cup is deformed into the anvil, crushing the priming pellet. This is why firing pins are of comparatively small diameter and usually have hemispherical tips. If a primer is high, and is suddenly struck by a flat-nose bullet, the effect ought in principle to be that the primer is pushed into the pocket, as oic0 points out above. In other words, there is no force acting to deform the centre of the cup toward the anvil.

A large rifle primer seated in a large pistol case would be high, with the cup seated against the bottom of the pocket. Yet, in order to set off the primer by the action of a flat-nose bullet, the force would have to be sufficient to crush the strong cylindrical wall of the primer cup—a level of force that is unlikely to occur in the possible accident modes.

Is it not more likely that a malformed, or improperly positioned, anvil is at the root of magazine tube explosions?

The matter of how the detonating force comes about could also stand some consideration. Usually, two mechanisms are described: recoil when the rifle is fired, or—and this applies solely to the Henry rifle—the shooter permitting the magazine follower to slam down against the cartridge stack during the loading process. But there is a third mechanism: every time the action is operated, after a cartridge has been lifted for feeding into the chamber, the lifter/elevator drops down and the column of cartridges is suddenly pushed backward the distance of one cartridge length by the magazine spring, against the cartridge stop.

It may be a good idea to examine every primer before seating in cartridges destined for rifles with tubular magazines.

[El Chivo]

as far as what could have set off the first round, I heard about one incident where the mold had a dimple in it, and the bullet came out with a corresponding sharp pinpoint in front, which set off a chain fire. Or as was said, a fragment of something could have gotten in between.

[MrMurphy]

I don't call it a tube explosion.....I call it an unintended spontaneous disassembly.

[76/444]

One naturally considers the possibility of a high primer in cases like this, but can that really lead to discharge in a magazine tube loaded with flat-nose bullets? A primer is designed to fire when the central portion of the cup is deformed into the anvil, crushing the priming pellet. This is why firing pins are of comparatively small diameter and usually have hemispherical tips. If a primer is high, and is suddenly struck by a flat-nose bullet, the effect ought in principle to be that the primer is pushed into the pocket, as oic0 points out above. In other words, there is no force acting to deform the centre of the cup toward the anvil.

A large rifle primer seated in a large pistol case would be high, with the cup seated against the bottom of the pocket. Yet, in order to set off the primer by the action of a flat-nose bullet, the force would have to be sufficient to crush the strong cylindrical wall of the primer cup—a level of force that is unlikely to occur in the possible accident modes.

Is it not more likely that a malformed, or improperly positioned, anvil is at the root of magazine tube explosions?

The matter of how the detonating force comes about could also stand some consideration. Usually, two mechanisms are described: recoil when the rifle is fired, or—and this applies solely to the Henry rifle—the shooter permitting the magazine follower to slam down against the cartridge stack during the loading process. But there is a third mechanism: every time the action is operated, after a cartridge has been lifted for feeding into the chamber, the lifter/elevator drops down and the column of cartridges is suddenly pushed backward the distance of one cartridge length by the magazine spring, against the cartridge stop.

It may be a good idea to examine every primer before seating in cartridges destined for rifles with tubular magazines.

Good points. And I would agree 100%,... if this was a perfect world. But it ain't!

I believe this type of incident is a culmination of a series of problems. Problems that may never be repeatable again,... or a series of problems that in conjunction with that specific weapon, resulted in this incident.

A super sensitive primer, improperly seated, not proper for the case/application, with wrong type of powder pushing the envelope, with a maxed charge,... add a person at the trigger that just zigged when he should have zagged,... the possibilities are endless!

And then there is always the possibility we are no privy to the REST OF THE STORY!!

[Malamute]

I believe it's possible to fire a primer without a small point like a firing pin. If you've used a Lee Loader you will know its possible to fire one with a wide flat surface, if the impact is enough.

A sensitive primer, and possibly a high one, seems like the most likely scenario.

The powder type or load wouldnt have any bearing on the primer intiating the firing. 10 grs Unique is not a very hot load in a 44 mag case. More than a factory level 44 spl, but by no means a magnum level load.