OT- Diagnose My Heat Pump

[Hagler]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I shot this video of my new heat pump on Saturday, January 30, 2010, at 11:30 a.m., outside temperature about 50*:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfmQ43fzQ8M

Can anyone tell me what is going on, and is it normal?

Thanks,
Shawn

[marlinman93]

Well I can't diagnose the problem for sure, but it's definitely not normal! Cycling way too much, and the compressor is too noisy from either bad valves, or low freon charge. Afraid it doesn't sound cheap either way.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

It's all caged up and yearns to be freed?

[vancelw]

It's broke

Seriously it looks like the capacitor that starts the fan motor is out for one thing. I'm not a HVAC man, but the compressor noises don't sound so strange. You're just used to having the fan drown those noises out. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

If you're handy and confident, remove and replace the capacitors yourself and it's not so expensive. In fact, it's cheap enough it's worth a gamble.
But if you're not handy with electricity, it's cheaper and safer to hire a HVAC tech. Those capacitors and 220V will knock the P out of you.

How old a unit is it?

[Chuck 100 yd]

NEW !! Heat pump you say??? Why is the repair man not there taking care of that issue PRONTO !! The Warranty should cover everything cost wise.

[iceman]

It is going in and out of defrost mode. If it is a new one probably an electronic board is snafu. Does it eventually go back to normal ie outside fan running? Usually after x minutes in heat mode initiate defrost, warm up outside coil,temp sensor says ok warm enough, return to heat mode. If sensor doesn't say ok after y minutes,end defrost. How to fix? Call contractor to repair.

[Hagler]

Good people,

Thanks for the input. I will give you a little more background:

The entire unit was installed in July, 2009 in my brand-new house. The warranty period is 1 year. The indoor "air handler" is a Carrier-brand unit. The outside portion is a Payne-branded unit. The thermostat is made by Totaline. My auxillary heater is TWO 5,000-Watt strips (10 kW, total). The air conditioning mode functions correctly at all times. For the last few weeks (cold weather, 28*- 50*), I have been jarred by the less-than-subtle sound of the defrost cycle of the heating mode. About half of those times, I get to hear what you all just heard. I do not believe that it is a normal operation. It goes on, sometimes, for most of the defrost cycle, which can be a total of more than 13 minutes.

I called the installer about the problem, a couple of weeks ago. He watched the first video that I made, and ordered a new control board. He installed the new board, a little over a week ago. Since then, the wacky cycling has appeared a few more times. I called the installer, again, and he came out & did an inspection, including (I saw him do it) add some amount of R-410 refrigerant to my heat pump. He said that it was "a little low". He & his assistant spent a goodly amount of time saerching for a leak, with a leak detector. No leaks were found. The current video was shot on the most recent past Saturday. I called John, the installer, yesterday. He came over at 9:30 this morning. Everything, apparently, is in working order. He has a couple of notions of what could be wrong (including a bad/ out of place liquid line temeperature sensor), but decided to call Carrier support to speak to a technician about it. I am waiting on a solution.

I have been told that the "wooshing" noise is the reversing valve changing the direction of the refrigerant flow, during the defrost cycle. The outdoor "condensor" fan stops spinning at this time, which is considered normal. I sometimes see steam rising from the outdoor unit, during defrost mode, which is also normal. The problem that I am having appears, to me, to be my heat pump rapidly & repeatedly entering & exiting the defrost cycle (often a DOZEN, or MORE times during "defrost"), which is probably NOT normal.

I have a secondary issue, which I brought up with John: I believe that the "heat pump-only" mode does NOT adequately heat my house. Only when the heat strips kick in (so-called "Stage 2") do I actually feel a noticeable increase in temperature.

I live in Southern Louisiana, and this is my first heat pump. ...so, please, keep the ideas coming.

Thanks,
Shawn

[Rusty]

One of the things about a heat pump is that it doesn't blow hot air in the heat pump mode. Any air hitting your skin at less than 98.6° is going to feel cool to you. At the same time air being put out at 80° will still warm your home. As the outside Temp drops lower and lower the heat pump doesn't work as well. That's why you have the heat strips. If you're worried about tearing something up you should have an emergency setting on your thermostat that will run just the heat strips.

[rjohns94]

sounds like its sending signals to the mother ship

[Hillbilly]

I'd second the starter board or defroster problem... the compressor motor "starts" but won't run for the cycle.

A bad start capacitor would leave you dead in the water (in my experience)...

[.45]

he came out & did an inspection, including (I saw him do it) add some amount of R-410 refrigerant to my heat pump. He said that it was "a little low". He & his assistant spent a goodly amount of time saerching for a leak, with a leak detector. No leaks were found.

How did he determine it was low on freon?
How much freon did he add?

I work on these things daily and just about the last thing you want to do in the heating cycle is add freon. If a leak wasn't found freon should not have been added. The ONLY way to accurately charge a system in the heating cycle is to start with a evacuated system and weigh the charge back in.

The "wooshing" sound you hear could also be the compressor unloading due to high preasure. You could have a plugged or restricted metering device or reversing valve. Hard to say without a set of gauges on the system.

I would switch the system over to emergency heat until they fix the problem.

[76/444]

I always get sucked into looking at these posts!!

I watched it and half expected the OP to walk up and put that thing out of its misery with a 45/70 to the heart,... just to keep it levergun related!

Rant over,... back on topic,... I don't even know what a "heat pump" is!!!

Sounds like my buddies well pump when the water table dropped and it kept sucking air every once in awhile!






Sorry,... just couldn't resist,.... hope it works out for you!

[86er]

iceman has it. It is going in and out of the defrost mode. Depending on the style, the thermostat for the defrost can be set a little more or less. Basically, when it senses 34 degrees for a long while or 30 degrees for more than 5 minutes it will kick into the defrost mode so that the pipes, motor and regulator don't freeze. The size of your pump makes a difference in the operation. There are different sizes for different square feet (with an 8 ft ceiling). I have two zones on my house. One pump controls 1800 square feet and the other 2250 square feet. We have 10 ft ceilings. If you do the math, the sizes of my pumps are right at the necessary size for sq. ft. I can get 70 degrees max from the heat running normally. If I crank up the settting and let it run for a long time I might het 72 degress. With cooling I can get 66 degrees in the dead of summer. If it is 100 degrees or more outside I might only get 71 degrees inside. Since it has been exceedingly cold this year the pumps have gone in and out of defrost several times a day when the outside temp hovered around freezing. If you are at the guideline and no more the pumps are designed to cool the inside air 25 degrees less than outside air, maximum. On the other hand, they are designed to warm the inside air to 65 degrees if they are at the minimum size for the sq. ft. A larger unit will cool quicker and easier and well as warm quicker and easier. Either will go into defrost mode at the same point and frequency. I think your's is running hard but working properly.

[Hagler]

...a bad starting capacitor? Interesting. I would not have thought of that, since the A/C function seems to work correctly, and does not exhibit the same symptoms. Thanks, I will keep that in mind.

================================

Rusty,

Thanks for that explanation. I have heard that a heat pump puts out plenty of heat, as long as the outside temperature remains above XX*. This is my first heat pump, so I have no reference point for that. Yes, I am running my heater in "emergency" mode.

================================

.45,

Thanks for your thoughts.

John hooked up his gauges, and ran the pump, and watched the gauges. I understand that proper charging means that you start from scratch. I am unfamiliar with the behavior of R-410, and I could not get a clear, continuous view of his gauges to watch what my system was doing. Again, I am running on emergency heat.

==================================

Thanks, guys, for the humor. About the largest caliber that I have is in my .44 Magnum B-92:

Shawn's B92 Rossi Lever.JPG

What do you think John & his assistant would say about the 1-year warranty 11 rounds of .44 Magnum from a levergun?

...any more ideas?

Thanks, again,
Shawn

[iceman]

Any news? Sounds like the temp sensor is snafu or wrong location. You said the board was changed, but doesn't mean it is ok. Once termination temp is reached, it should go back into heat mode, fan comes on, you see a cloud of steam if it is cold enough outside. It sounds like it is doing its complete time instead of temperature termination. Could also be a fan relay sticking and locking everythong in defrost but i am only guessing without see the wiring diagram.

[Hagler]

iceman,

No, nothing yet.

Thank you, for your thoughts.

Shawn