OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

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Chas.
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OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by Chas. »

Give me a revolver anyday. The lady who used to help my wife with the housecleaning had 2 sons, one 20 and the other 11. 2 days ago, her and her husband were out for a while and the 20-year old was baby sitting his younger brother and another younger boy. For some reason, they got their dad's 9mm out. The older removed the clip, and while the younger was checking it out, it discharged killing the older brother. There was still a round in the chamber. The deceased had enlisted in the AF but had not left yet. He was also an Eagle Scout. Fine family and this is a very sad time.

There are many "wrongs" here and the cost couldn't be higher. I know that blaming the gun is wrong, but anyway, I hate autoloaders.

edit: And here's yet another one I heard about this evening.

"A 19-year-old died early Wednesday morning in an accidental shooting in White Pine, according to the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. Sheriff David Davenport said William Clarence Evans, of White Pine, was killed around 1:30 a.m. at a home on Bridle Way. Evans and two friends, a 16 and 17-year-old boy, were playing with a semi-automatic 9mm handgun they thought wasn't loaded. Davenport said the 16-year-old boy was holding the gun when it went off, hitting Evans in the forehead and killing him. The names of his friends haven't been released."
Last edited by Chas. on Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ysabel Kid
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Re: I HATE autoloaders

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Could have happened with a revolver, or any other firearm. Easier with an autoloader, but still possible with any firearm. I myself prefer single-actions above all (handguns), but the autoloader does have it's uses.

Such a sad event, such a waste of young life. :(
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Tycer
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders

Post by Tycer »

Apparently the four rules were not properly taught in that family.

Sad.
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Dave
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders

Post by Dave »

Mighty rough. I hope they can get through it.
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TedH
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders

Post by TedH »

I hate to hear these stories. Prayers offered.
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C. Cash
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders

Post by C. Cash »

Very sorry to hear this!
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AJMD429
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders

Post by AJMD429 »

They are certainly NOT for novices, and I hate to see the gun shops sell them to the inexperienced folks.

Maybe the buyer/owner was 'experienced', but unforunately not the kid who got hold of it.
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders

Post by J Miller »

I understand the pain. But it isn't the guns fault. It's the older boys fault for not properly clearing and safeing the pistol. Plain and simple.

My condolences to the family and especially the younger boy, he'll never get over this.

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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders

Post by adirondakjack »

Chas. wrote:Give me a revolver anyday. The lady who used to help my wife with the housecleaning had 2 sons, one 20 and the other 11. 2 days ago, her and her husband were out for a while and the 20-year old was baby sitting his younger brother and another younger boy. For some reason, they got their dad's 9mm out. The older removed the clip, and while the younger was checking it out, it discharged killing the older brother. There was still a round in the chamber. The deceased had enlisted in the AF but had not left yet. He was also an Eagle Scout. Fine family and this is a very sad time.

There are many "wrongs" here and the cost couldn't be higher. I know that blaming the gun is wrong, but anyway, I hate autoloaders.

Too much tragedy here. I've been close enough to see the aftermath of something like this. December, 1983, my then 13 yr old brother killed his best friend when an "empty" dan Wesson .357 revolver of my dad's that he was showing off went "bang" when he dry fired it, fooling around. Somebody (likely my dad) put it away loaded, though the rule in the house was always "unload em before you bring em in". Since that was the rule, the kid thought it was empty. His buddy is dead, buddy's mother never recovered, died by her own hand some years later, and my brother is a career drunk with little going for him......

GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE, negligent people kill people.
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by Doc Hudson »

My condolences to the families of the kids, such accidents are tragic.

But i gotta ask. Just how he devil does a kid make Eagle Scout without a firearms merit badge and learning how to clear a weapon and proper gun handling?
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geobru
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by geobru »

Doc Hudson wrote: But i gotta ask. Just how he devil does a kid make Eagle Scout without a firearms merit badge and learning how to clear a weapon and proper gun handling?
The shooting merit badge is not a required merit badge for the rank of Eagle.

There is no substitute for learning at a young age how to handle a weapon. (Like its loaded!) Every time there is an accident of any kind, there was an opportunity at some point for an easy fix in most cases. Unfortunately, in cases like this there is no undoing what has been done. The survivors are scarred forever. What a shame for all involved.... :(
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by Rifleman »

A gun is always loaded until YOU verify it isn't.

Yesterday my brother was telling me about our neighbors derringer and how hard the trigger was to pull. I was curious to know if his trigger pull was harder than mine. So I unloaded the derringer and gave it to him to try. His first action was to open the gun and check to see if it was indeed empty.

He watched me unload it but still verified that it was unloaded himself. That is how we were taught.
Chas.
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by Chas. »

Rifleman wrote: He watched me unload it but still verified that it was unloaded himself. That is how we were taught.
That's exactly how I was taught. I hear the question so many times "is it loaded?". The answer to that is unequivocally "yes", unless you see yourself that it's not, but even then, they're treated as if they were. I never ask that question. They're all loaded as far as I'm concerned.

I was also taught never to have the muzzle pointed toward anyone, EVER - not even wave it by them.

And even to this day, with the action pieces laying all over the workbench, I don't feel completely comfortable looking down the barrel from the muzzle end.
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Borregos
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders

Post by Borregos »

Tycer wrote:Apparently the four rules were not properly taught in that family.

Sad.
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by AJMD429 »

In our family the rule is that you open the action and leave or lock it open before handing the gun to someone.

One 'extra' rule to keep in mind is that the other people who have handled (or are about to handle) that gun may NOT follow all the other rules.

Even though a death is just as irreversable and tragic if it involves an electric appliance, choking, an automobile, sports, or any number of other causes, if a gun is involved, it just seems worse somehow. To the non-gun-owners it may be that way because they can't imagine what anyone would have a gun for in the first place, and to the gun owners, it is probably because we see how totally preventable they usually are if someone just had followed the BASIC rules.
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by fordwannabe »

I was at a gunshop about a year ago when a fella came in with a revolver he wanted to sell. he pulled it out of the rug and started to ask about selling it and yada...yada...yada. the owner of the shop took the gun(after the guy had been waving it around mind you) opened it and sure as poop there it was fully loaded with black talons(IIRC). My LGS owner who is a mild mannered and fun guy came UNHINGED on this dude. He called him every name in the book and a few he made up on the spot told the guy "you dumb son of a (we'll go with "gun" here) you get out of my shop and don't you ever come in here again, your a danger to good people!" I tell you I haven't seen that reaction from somebody about a gun since I was a kid(and I'll never forget the lesson..guess who was being yelled at). LGS owner said he wouldn't help somebody that (uuummmn we'll go with "stupid" here also) to have money. The rule at our house is if I hand the kid(he's 16) a gun he checks it even if I tell him it's unloaded(it's a test and he knows it). If he hands me a gun I check, no animosity or disrespect just the rule. Better to check it 3 times in one minute than not to check at all. People who don't know the rules shouldn't have access to guns unsupervised.
Sorry for the families loss.
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by pdawg.shooter »

I dont post much here, but I have to chime in this time. Dont blame the firearm. I raised 2 kids with guns in the house by teaching them not to touch till they were old enough to to learn how to safely use them. All firearms in my house are loaded, at all times. Everyone knows this so they treat them as loaded. No mistakes.
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TedH
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by TedH »

AJMD429 wrote:In our family the rule is that you open the action and leave or lock it open before handing the gun to someone.

Exactly. If we were to hand a gun off, the cylinder is swung out, slide locked back, lever pulled down, etc. The recepient doesn't have to wonder if the gun is safe.
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by kimwcook »

It's extremely tragic when a person is hurt or killed by unsafe firearm handling, but it is incorrect to blame the firearm. No matter what make or design of action. It's the improper handling that's to blame. Pure and simple. As a number of replies here have stated, if you're handed a firearm check it yourself. And, don't get mad if you hand a firearm that you've already checked to someone and they check it for being unloaded. That's only proper gun handling etiquette.
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by CaptainFinn »

Whe I was an RO (County-run public range) we had fourteen signs between the parking lot and the firing line stating that all guns had to be unloaded, actions open, mags removed.

I know lots of shooters have huge problems with ranges and gun stores that have 'no loaded guns' rules, but we did it simply because not all shooters are safe. Many novices (and waaaay too many 'experienced' gun owners) do not practive the rules of firearms safety.

In addition, as a goverment-operated public range, we had liability issues. If some dingleberry came out, and accidentally shot themselves or someone else, you can bet it would be us, the county, who would be sued and held liable.

Anyway, before a range officer would take a newly-arrived shooter and assign & walk them to a shooting bench, we would ask them at the entrance gate, "Sir, are all your firearms unloaded, actions open, magazines out, etc"

HUNDREDS of times we would then walk to the bench, where the RO would check the firearms for, amongst other things, barrel obstructions (more then one time I have found the barrel plugged with old cleaning patches, dust bunnies, odds and ends, even a wasp nest and one time a squib slug halfway down the barrel.), and find that there was a round in the chamber.

Invariably the customer would protest "But I thought it was empty". I would gently ask them "So if I had taken this gun and asked if it were empty, would you have been comfortable taking the gun and placing the muzzle against your head and pulling the trigger ?"

I wasn't trying to be an A-hole, I was trying to drive home the old adage about never pointing a gun at something you don't want to see destroyed.

Even today, years later, in our home, you don't point guns at anyone. Not even toy guns. The first time I chided my son for pointing a toy gun at his sister, my wife was like "What's the big deal" ? But after seeing more then one story on the news about kids and guns, she has come around to my way of thinking.

And as much as I love and trust my kids--and as responsible as my 12-year-old son is--I don't leave any guns out in the home when I'm not there. Everything goes in the safe if the kids are home and I'm not. Nothing on rifle racks, nothing in drawers, nothing loaded .
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Re: OT-I HATE autoloaders updated with another one

Post by wavetrain75 »

Ugh.

A friend of mine celebrated getting his concealed weapons permit by buying himself a Baby Eagle .380. "Look what I got," as he held it to his temple. "It's not loaded."

It wasn't, as it turned out. But I walked away and crossed him off the list of people I'll go to the range with.

Really can't blame the autoloader in my opinion. Safe gun handling is the responsibility of the operator, which includes keeping it locked up if that's the only way to keep it away from the kids.
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