414 Supermag Leveraction

[missionary5155]

Good evening
How much interest would there be in a 414 Supermag Marlin Lever action?
I wonder how many units would have to be ordered for Marlin to do a SPECIAL RUN ?
All they would need to do is a different barrel as the 414 has the same case head as a 375 Winchester or a 38-55 basicly.
No matter, I am going to head into that project on my own and have a rifle that will shoot that cartridge.

[adirondakjack]

Sounds like a fairly straightforward rebarrel situation to me. Buy a barrel and chamber reamer, cut, thread, chamber, dovetail and yer there. I don't see why feeding would be an issue if the case heads are the same, and COAL similar to the donor gun.

Marlin seems to be going the other way. unless Davidsons or somebody paid up front for say 414 of em, they wouldn't be interested.

[Thunder50]

If it is basically the same case head as you describe, then the 30-30 would work as a base gun. Buy a 41mag barrel and have it installed and chambered for the 414sm. You will probably have to modify the carrier (maybe use a 35rem one) for the shorter cartridge. Should work well, just be careful on pressures.

[J Miller]

Another couple questions from me;

What nitch does this cartridge fill,
Why do we need it?

In this case "because I want it" is not a valid answer to my question. There are many good nitch filling cartridges chambered in Marlin lever guns, what does this 414 Supermag do, the others do not?

Thinking minds want to know.

Joe

[AJMD429]

In this case "because I want it" is not a valid answer to my question.

...how about the parent-to-kid answer I use of "just because",

or my favorite,

"I already had a box of ammo so I had to get the gun - otherwise that expensive ammo would go to waste!"...

[J Miller]

In this case "because I want it" is not a valid answer to my question.

...how about the parent-to-kid answer I use of "just because",

or my favorite,

"I already had a box of ammo so I had to get the gun - otherwise that expensive ammo would go to waste!"...

Yeah I know where you're comeing from AJMD, but I still want to know "why". What will this 414SM do that a 38-55 or 356 or 444 wont?

Joe

[adirondakjack]

In this case "because I want it" is not a valid answer to my question.

...how about the parent-to-kid answer I use of "just because",

or my favorite,

"I already had a box of ammo so I had to get the gun - otherwise that expensive ammo would go to waste!"...

Yeah I know where you're comeing from AJMD, but I still want to know "why". What will this 414SM do that a 38-55 or 356 or 444 wont?

Joe

Oh, the answer is obvious. Such a rifle will run the .414 SM cartridge, of course. (This answer from the guy building a rolling block in Cowboy .45 Special JUST BECAUSE I CAN.)

[J Miller]

Never mind. I ask a serious question of the poster cos I never heard of such a round and all I get is goofy answers.


Joe

[Blaine]

Never mind. I ask a serious question of the poster cos I never heard of such a round and all I get is goofy answers.
Joe

Asking why is very dangerous....what if the WimminFolk started asing that? We'd be up stuff creek if they expected a logical anwser I could see it as what the .444 is to the .44mag: a real whup butt round. Marlins aren't the right action for a .405 Winchester.

[adirondakjack]

Never mind. I ask a serious question of the poster cos I never heard of such a round and all I get is goofy answers.


Joe

Joe, I can see yer la la juice is fully worn off and yer back to happy old Joe

Seriously, I'd never heard of the round either, but a quick google seach led me to a tale of the development of three rounds, a .357, a 44, and a 41, all initially offered in Dan Wesson revolvers for use in sillywet games. They run high pressures and would, I assume shoot VERY flat compared to the shorter parent cases. We're talking a .41 manglem stretched to a CASE length of 1.6" or some such..... Only 25 or so .41 SM Dan Wesson guns were made before they went belly up. Starline made a batch of brass, so it exists, etc..... The author showed a 200M target with a 5 shot group about 4" or so. That's with a .41 revolver pushing 210 grainers at 1600 fps (or about 400 fps faster than factory 200 grain .44-40s run out of a RIFLE....)

[Old Savage]

OK - so no one has a real answer to Joe's question.

[J Miller]

Never mind. I ask a serious question of the poster cos I never heard of such a round and all I get is goofy answers.


Joe

Joe, I can see yer la la juice is fully worn off and yer back to happy old Joe

Seriously, I'd never heard of the round either, but a quick google seach led me to a tale of the development of three rounds, a .357, a 44, and a 41, all initially offered in Dan Wesson revolvers for use in sillywet games. They run high pressures and would, I assume shoot VERY flat compared to the shorter parent cases. We're talking a .41 manglem stretched to a CASE length of 1.6" or some such..... Only 25 or so .41 SM Dan Wesson guns were made before they went belly up. Starline made a batch of brass, so it exists, etc..... The author showed a 200M target with a 5 shot group about 4" or so. That's with a .41 revolver pushing 210 grainers at 1600 fps (or about 400 fps faster than factory 200 grain .44-40s run out of a RIFLE....)

A-Jack,

OK, now I understand a bit. I suppose I could have done a google too, but didn't think of it. Duh ....

And it's not so much that my giggle juice wore of it's that my wife found a couple papers in the stuff the hospital sent home with me that said I have to call back in a week to get the biopsy tests. They never told me nuthin about that. So now I'm back to the waiting game again and I hate waiting.

Anyway, I guess an easy way to build one like this would be to stick a rechambered 41 mag barrel on a 336 action and go to town. That would work wouldn't it?

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

This is basically just a lengthened 41 Mag - like they did with the 357 Supermag and 445 Supermag - lengthening the 357 and 44 mags.

The ballistics look very similar to standard 44 Magnum ballistics... maybe even slightly less.

Doing this kind of thing is basically silly from a practical point of view - but then, who said everything has to be practical?

[missionary5155]

Good evening I apoligise I was not able to get back sooner. I tried to reply this A.M. but something was not working.
First the 414 Supermag (1.6" case length) was another of those cartridges developed for shooting steel (Elgin Gates). The 357SM (alias Max) was iffy at 200 meter rams. The 375SM is fully able to pop the 50 lb Rams hit anywhere with the 235+ grainers. I shoot the standard 255g Ideal cast bullet at about 1350fps cast in WW in my Dan Wesson SM revolver.
When the 414SM made debut I was in Peru & did not have the funds to buy one until they were all gone and discontinued.
So I built my own this summer & fall. I received a 414 cylinder from Dan Wesson {NOS} (now CZ) & fitted it to my 375 frame. The barrel is a custom made .410 but thrreaded to match my 375 frame.
So the 414SM revolver (8") will push a 265 gr gc cast of ww to 1500+fps. I have not yet tried for the ULTIMATE velocity. This particular load is more power than I need for deer & is accurate in my revolver.
So why not have a lever gun that will shoot the same ammo ? It should add another 300 fps+- to that velocity without much effort. It could get to 1900+. And it should easily handle 300 gr gc cast. That weight pushes the 414SM revolver's rounds down to 1250+ fps. But a 20" tube should keep cooking to near 1600... maybe more.
So sure the 444 can do that BUT you seen any revolvers in 444 ? I already have all the molds,sizers,brass, revolver and the desire... GOOD Enough reasons for me to build a lever gun.
Standard 41 mag dies work nicely. A pile of brass sits at Starline.
Merry Christmas everyone !!!

[adirondakjack]

Joe, yes a .41 barrel, .414 SM chamber reamer, and a donor gun with the right bolt face is 90% of the job.

Having just today finished reworking a .44mag 1894 to run .44 mag, spl and .44 Russian, I'm pretty conversant on timing a marlin action.

Missionary, if ya do this project, you might run into some feeding issues, but there is absolutely no reason to suspect they can't be worked out with careful timing of the carrier and maybe a little massaging of the carrier's top deck. Not a plug-n-play deal necessarily, but doable.

[AJMD429]

OK - so no one has a real answer to Joe's question.

Of course not, that's why they call us "gun nuts"...!

[O.S.O.K.]

I was basing my comments on ballistics off of this site: http://www.ihmsa.org/tom/techarticles/d ... permag.htm

Shows 1650 fps with 210 grain bullet from a revolver (1270 ft lb.s). I didn't look to see the barrel length.

44 Mag in a revolver will give 1550 fps with a 240 grain bullet (1280 ft lb.s).

Basically the same except that the 414 will have better sectional density and most likely better bc's, so its better for IHMSA.

Having a revolver chambered in this round already is a good enough excuse to want a levergun to match

I've got this in three calibers myself - all "standard" though...

[Wrangler John]

The Super Mag cartridges were developed by Elgin Gates back in the 70's & 80's. I still have two revolvers in these, a .357 Maximum (Super Max) and the .375 Super Magnum. They are all good cartridges, even more so today with the greater assortment of powders available.

If you want some advice as to what is possible check this list of cartridges and contact them. http://www.reedercustomguns.com/informa ... ridges.htm

I recall they used to convert Marlin lever rifles to such cartridges. His Big Horn Hunter is in .41 or 410 GNR for $1,295. There may be some problem with length and feeding or pressure related to the Super Mags. I recall Marlin canceled their offering in .475 Linebaugh for similar reasons.

[missionary5155]

Thanks Wrangler... I will do so.

[Buck Elliott]

As a one-off project, it might be interesting. As a commercial venture, I sincerely doubt it. There just isn't enough interest in the cartridge to warrant the job.

Not to say the cartridge doesn't have merit, within its parameters; just that it has always been seen as a very specialized item, and has been overshadowed by otheres in that class -- notably the .454.

FWIW, Elgin Gates & Dick Casull were two examples of a "breed apart," who never got along together.