Levergun ballance thoughts / questions

[J Miller]

I have a first year (85) Win 94AE Trapper in .45 Colt. The first five or six years of their production the .45 Colt Trappers came with a thin walled skinny barrel. After that they went to a bull barrel.

Mine is VERY muzzle light when empty. When you pick it up and hold it as you would normally hold a 94 Win you can feel the stock heaviness. When loaded it has just about a neutral balance. Kind of like how a Win 94 30-30 carbine with the 20" barrel feels when empty. But with each and every round fired you can readily feel the muzzle getting light. This gets disturbing after a while because the short barrel is not easily controlled in slow or rapid fire. You literally have to work to control it.

Without major modifications such as a new bull barrel, (I'm not opposed to this idea, just no wampum to do it.) what can I do to change the balance of this Trapper. I'd like to make it feel neutral when empty.
There is no room to add weight to the muzzle end, plus I don't want anything ugly or obvious.

So I was wondering about hollowing out the stock. Do you think enough weight could be removed from the stock without weakening it to achieve my neutral when empty balance?

Any other ideas?

Winter project ideas. Gonna snow soon.

Joe

[TedH]

Could you put a few lead slugs under the spring in the front end of the mag tube? You would loose a round or two capacity, but it would be easily reversed if you wanted to. You could easily make a wooden mold to cast one slug as large as would fit in the tube and as long as you wanted. Just drill a hole in a block of wood the right size and depth and fill it up with lead.

[Malamute]

Yes Joe, you can drill out the butt. My dad does it on rather fancy grade shotguns to get the balance just where he wants it. Just being careful, and using a sharp bit is probably the main points. I'd go as much as two holes bored side by side (up and down axis of the stock) to get the balance you want. In theory, you should be able to go most of the length of the stock without hurting it, as some are drilled through for the stock to receiver bolt. Staying in the center of the stock is the hardest part if doing it by hand. I think my Dad uses a 1/2" or 5/8" spade bit.

[J Miller]

Ted,
I could, but with nine (9) loaded rounds it's just barely balanced. So to put enough lead in the front of the magazine I'd end up with maybe five or six rounds capacity. Although it's something I've though of, it's not something I want to do.

Malamute,
Any idea of how much walnut you'd have to remove to equal the weight of 9 rounds of .45 Colt?
I'll have to weigh them to get an idea.
Note: I just weighed 10 rounds loaded with 255gr Keith SWCs and they came out to 8.5 ounces.

Joe

[Malamute]

I don't. You could just go trial and error til you get it like you want it, or weigh the stock before you start and see how much weight you take off per inch of hole depth. I believe my Dad just goes trial and error until he gets the balance point where he wants it. He likes to make all his shotguns balance an exact distsance in front of the trigger guard, or as close as he can make it. He also uses lead tape along the barrels inside the fore end to get the balance where he wants it. I think he gets it at golf supply places. You'd probably have to do some wood removal inside a leverguns fore end to get clearance for the lead tape.

[J Miller]

I don't. You could just go trial and error til you get it like you want it, or weigh the stock before you start and see how much weight you take off per inch of hole depth. I believe my Dad just goes trial and error until he gets the balance point where he wants it. He likes to make all his shotguns balance an exact distsance in front of the trigger guard, or as close as he can make it. He also uses lead tape along the barrels inside the fore end to get the balance where he wants it. I think he gets it at golf supply places. You'd probably have to do some wood removal inside a leverguns fore end to get clearance for the lead tape.

Alright! Lead tape is an idea to think on. I've never heard of it. But there is a golf course near me. I can check them out. Lead is heavier than wood so an 8.5 to 9 ounce strip of that might just do the trick.
Cool idea!

As for weighing the stock first then checking it frequently that's a good idea too. It came to me just as I was editing my previous post.

Joe

Joe

[LeverBob]

Hey Joe...how about routing out the forearm about 3-4", just under the mag. tube. Doesn't have to be deep, about 1/4". Make up a lead filler & glue it in with Elmers. Use a grinder to remove a bit if the balance isn't what you want.

Bad thing is you have to take it apart every time you want to change the weight.

Just a thought...

LB

[J Miller]

Hey Joe...how about routing out the forearm about 3-4", just under the mag. tube. Doesn't have to be deep, about 1/4". Make up a lead filler & glue it in with Elmers. Use a grinder to remove a bit if the balance isn't what you want.

Bad thing is you have to take it apart every time you want to change the weight.

Just a thought...

LB

No router, but I can figger out a way to do it. If I can find some of the lead tape Malamute mentioned it will be easier.

Joe

[Tycer]

How long is the compressed mag spring and what is the inside diameter of it. I could cast you a slug rod.

[J Miller]

How long is the compressed mag spring and what is the inside diameter of it. I could cast you a slug rod.

Hmmmm, I don't know. I'd have to pull it out and measure it.

But if we did that then I'd be back to where I'd loose magazine capacity, which I don't want to do.
I think I'm going to try the lead tape in the forearm idea first. Then the holes in the but stock if that don't work.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

Because of the geometry involved, your gun is probably not gonna balance.

The ammo alone ends up centered about 6" ahead of the trigger. You'd need to remove an equal amount of wood at that same distance, and guess what, that'd be about HALF the stock's weight.

Now if you were to tape together say four 250 grain bullets, forming a 'roll", and stick em inside the spring, up front at the nose cap, AND hollow the stock, you'd be close, but no ceegar even at that. Nothing substitutes for steel up front. My 16" octagon BBL Marlin balances just at the receiver like a 20-22" round barrel rifle.

[J Miller]

Because of the geometry involved, your gun is probably not gonna balance.

The ammo alone ends up centered about 6" ahead of the trigger. You'd need to remove an equal amount of wood at that same distance, and guess what, that'd be about HALF the stock's weight.

Now if you were to tape together say four 250 grain bullets, forming a 'roll", and stick em inside the spring, up front at the nose cap, AND hollow the stock, you'd be close, but no ceegar even at that. Nothing substitutes for steel up front. My 16" octagon BBL Marlin balances just at the receiver like a 20-22" round barrel rifle.

Jack,
I was doing some carry experiments last night and I came to just about the same conclusion. As normally carried with the hand around the receiver just forward the lever, the butt is badly heavy when the Trapper is empty. With 9 rounds in the tube it's neutral, just barely. With it empty I pressed down on the barrel and it seemed like I was putting more than 8 oz of pressure on it, however 9 rounds in the magazine only weighs around 8 oz.
My wife's comment was put some lead under the forearm and lighten the but stock.
In lieu of that about the only thing I can think of is biting the bullet and putting a bull barrel on it. At one time I had one located but that was several years ago and finances wouldn't allow it.

Tycer,
I'll get the measurements on the spring later today.


Joe

[mescalero1]

At the risk of being kicked off the forum, Ram Line makes a plastic butt and forearm for the 94.

[J Miller]

At the risk of being kicked off the forum, Ram Line makes a plastic butt and forearm for the 94.

LOL, I've already thought of that. And in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22737 AJMD posted a pic of a clamp on light mount. That might work to add weight too. It's so butt heavy now it sure couldn't hurt one bit.

Joe

[mescalero1]

Joe,
Keep in mind, I have that duplicator, I do not have it set up yet but..........
It is entirely feasible I could duplicate you current stock from lighter less dense wood.

[L_Kilkenny]

While the weight under the forearm would help, I'd worry that the weight wouldn't be far enough forward. To see the same effect as 8oz on the end, I'm betting you will need 16 at the forearm. That's why the 8oz of ammo had more effect. Much of the ammo is towards the tip.

While balence is no doubt important, I worry about adding a pound of weight. Also, lead while heavy takes up space. I've not done casting but a 1oz fishing sinker is not small. Is there enough room in the forearm to make a difference?

LK

[J Miller]

While the weight under the forearm would help, I'd worry that the weight wouldn't be far enough forward. To see the same effect as 8oz on the end, I'm betting you will need 16 at the forearm. That's why the 8oz of ammo had more effect. Much of the ammo is towards the tip.

While balence is no doubt important, I worry about adding a pound of weight. Also, lead while heavy takes up space. I've not done casting but a 1oz fishing sinker is not small. Is there enough room in the forearm to make a difference?

LK

LK,
I have had the same thoughts. To make this think balance it needs the weight as far forward as possible. But to put weight in the end of the magazine tube will decrease the mag capacity and that I don't want.

I'm thinking that nothing short of a bull barrel will do the trick.

M1,
That's an interesting thought. But wood that's lighter in weight would also look funny and out of place. I've not seen any that would match even when stained. But then again, I've not seen everything.

Joe

[RANisbet]

The lead in the mag may not reduce ammo capacity.
Remember that the mag spring when compressed still has length and other than a small portion of the mag follower that extends into the hollow of the spring, the balance of the hollow in the center of the mag spring can accept a lead slug.
To get an idea of the compressed spring length, measure one bullet's length, multiply by the number the mag will hold, then see where the total length falls when you measure from front of receiver to a spot on the mag. That distance from the measured spot to the end of the mag will be the hollow, minus mag follower and mag cap.
Bob Nisbet

[J Miller]

Bob,

Been there, done that. There is virtually zero room left when the spring is compressed in this Trapper. Here is a pic I took a couple years ago for some reason:

94 Trapper w ammo.JPG

You can see that with 9 rounds stacked end to end, there is little room left. How that spring compresses into that small space is beyond me.
Without reducing the magazine capacity, there isn't any way to get more than one bullet worth in there.

Joe

[Gun Smith]

It seems that me that selling your gun and buying a bull barrel model would be best. Might be the cheapest, simplest way to solve your problem and not have something kind of cobbled up . Just my $.02 worth.

[J Miller]

It seems that me that selling your gun and buying a bull barrel model would be best. Might be the cheapest, simplest way to solve your problem and not have something kind of cobbled up . Just my $.02 worth.

Yeah, that might be the easiest but in this case I won't part with this one.
I've had it since 86. It was the first handgun caliber lever gun I bought and of course it's in my favorite caliber. So I won't part with it.

Like I said earlier I don't have the funds to go hunting for a bull barrel, so that idea is way off on the back burner.

Most likely I'll just do what I've been doing for 22 years ..... just live with it.

Joe

[CoopertownBob]

I was going to suggest the same thing as gunsmith, but since you stated you won't part with it, then the only other thing I would suggest is to carefully clean and store it away. In the mean time, buy another, newer model with bull-barrel, and use that one while carefully maintaining the older, first year production collectors item in an unmodified state. Then again, if you're like me, just modify it to suit your purposes and don't worry about the collectors or the looks.

[J Miller]

I was going to suggest the same thing as gunsmith, but since you stated you won't part with it, then the only other thing I would suggest is to carefully clean and store it away. In the mean time, buy another, newer model with bull-barrel, and use that one while carefully maintaining the older, first year production collectors item in an unmodified state. Then again, if you're like me, just modify it to suit your purposes and don't worry about the collectors or the looks.

Bob,
It was "modified" 20 years ago when I drilled and tapped it for a receiver sight. It's no longer a collectors item. Matter of fact I don't own anything collectible, I shoot 'em all.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

Joe, to give ya an idea how much my .45 Marlin's barrel weighs, It started life as a 24" octagon. I had it cut to 16 1/4". The piece of steel cut off weighs 12 ounces. With the taper and all, I suspect the barrel I have left weighs on the order of 26 or 27 ounces. So I suppose your round barrel to weigh like 18 or 20 ounces, and MOST of the difference is toward the muzzle, owing to the taper of the round pipe.

Put another way, my gun, with the barrel cut to 16 1/4" weighs 5lbs, 15.5 ounces empty. It balances perfectly empty, with two fingers supporting the receiver, right behind the forearm. Since I normally carry it afield (where balance really counts) with only 3 or 4 rounds loaded, one of which is in the chamber, and the others extend back to the loading gate, the balance doesn't change hardly at all.

For CAS, where I'm "locked in" tight and running it fast, I don't notice any initial barrel-heavy or that going away as rounds are spent.

Now the 24" marlin balances on the forearm empty, and is way barrel heavy when fully loaded.

[horsesoldier03]

Joe,

Everyone knows that GOLD is heavier than LEAD. You might put a couple ounces of gold in the end of the mag tube!

[Grizz]

You can hang a weight off the rifle from a string and move it along the length of the rifle to find the point where that particular weight balances the gun as you like it. You would know a couple of things that way and have something specific to work with...

Grizz

[gimdandy]

Joe,
Seems to me Mescalaro Has the perfect solution. You might have to stain it several times to get the exact tone you want . I guess it depends on how bad you want to change the balance how much effort you are willing to put into changing it
Another Idea could be to build metal strips to go between the barrel and the mag tube much like they use on double guns between the barrels, thickness and length could be predetermined using Grizz' method. Wouldn't be expensive to make (bench grinder and/ or couple files) and either soldered or attached w/ barrel bands
still like Mescalaro' idea as best and easiest. You can make it color you want and if you look at the Beretta (my Tekneys shot gun has it and I think they are doing it on most 391 model semi auto's )that are coming out they have been showing up w/ all sorts of wood grain designs
good luck what ever you do.

[NonPCnraRN]

You don't need a router to open up the barrel channel. Get a round rasp and remove wood from the barrel channel. You can purchase tungsten powder and mix it with epoxy. I would think you could make it pretty thick. Bed the forearm just as if you were doing a regular bedding job. The tungsten powder will add weight and the epoxy will add strength back to the forearm where the wood was removed. IIRC tungsten is heavier than lead.

[J Miller]

All kinds of ideas. But when I do get to it I think it will take working on both ends. I'm doubtful I'd be able to put enough weight in the forearm area to achieve the results I think I want.

The one idea I really like though is the gold weight in the front of the magazine. Only problem with that is where do I get it?

Hmmmm, I wonder what a gold Keith bullet would weigh??

Joe

[mescalero1]

I have the gold, but at $1218.00 an ounce,
it is an expensive solution.
It is 99.8% pure as it comes out of the ground, soft and mallable, it would not stand up to the recoil and would deform.

[adirondakjack]

Weight on the forearm is gonna mean ya need LOTS of it, as close to the point of balance as it is. Sure, you could rout the thing to a shell and fill it with acraglass mixed with fine shot, but to make it balance, ya'd end up with about a 6.5 to 7 lb. rifle.

[J Miller]

I have the gold, but at $1218.00 an ounce,
it is an expensive solution.
It is 99.8% pure as it comes out of the ground, soft and mallable, it would not stand up to the recoil and would deform.

That makes panning for it look mighty interesting. Hmmmm, ifn I could find just three or four ounces and sell it then I'd have enough to move west.

Well, I'd need more than that cos I wanna cast up some gold Keith bullets. Just because.....
............................................................

A-jack, You are very right about adding that much weight. I'd probably have to add at least a pound of weight at the forearm, maybe more. That would make it quite a bit heavier.

Joe

[mescalero1]

Forget the bullets Joe,
I know how much it takes to fill a .45 Colt mold.

[J Miller]

Forget the bullets Joe,
I know how much it takes to fill a .45 Colt mold.

Naw, I gotta make at least a couple.



Joe

[mescalero1]

It is not going down,
gold production has been falling for the last ten years, mining companies must go deeper for poorer grade ore, raising production costs.
I am watching that forty acres go up-up-up.