Trying lead bullets in my 30-30s

[J Miller]

For years I've been ignoring everyone who talks about lead bullets in 30-30s and other normally jacketed bullet rifle cartridges. Recently I got curious and mooched some off of forum member Leverbob. He also sent me a larger caliber bullet to bell the cases with. Unfortunately I can't get a consistent bell with that and the bullets are getting scraped up as they are seated.
Leverbob uses a Lyman M die expander for his. My question is, who else makes an expander die for use with lead bullets in rifles?

I figure if I'm going to do this experiment right, I want to load these bullets as good as I can.

Joe

[45-70marlin]

rcbs makes cowboy dies just for lead bullets. I have a set for both my 30-30 and 45-70. they work great. I think you may be able to get just the expander die at midwayusa.com.

[LeverBob]

Howdy Joe...glad you're back & makin' trouble!

LEE makes a "Universal case expanding Die" Part #006-90798 from Midsouth Shooters Supply. They cost about 10 bucks each + shipping.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/d ... =Reloading

I use the Lyman because the die plug expands the case neck a little bit & flairs the case mouth at the same time. Makes the neck a little friendlier for the boolit. The LEE only flairs the case mouth. The RCBS will expand the neck, but it is about $18.00 compared to the Lyman, which is about $12.50 from Midsouth Supply.

By the way...you're not a mooch, you're a good pard!

Best to you Pard

[flatnose]

I have always used the M die, it does a good job.
I use bearcreek cast bullets @ $28.00 per 400. 10grns unique, or 8.5 grns of green dot. Accurate in my rifle.

[J Miller]

Howdy Joe...glad you're back & makin' trouble!

LEE makes a "Universal case expanding Die" Part #006-90798 from Midsouth Shooters Supply. They cost about 10 bucks each + shipping.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/d ... =Reloading

I use the Lyman because the die plug expands the case neck a little bit & flairs the case mouth at the same time. Makes the neck a little friendlier for the boolit. The LEE only flairs the case mouth.

By the way...you're not a mooch, you're a good pard!

Best to you Pard

LB, I meant mooch in a good way . I check out the Midsouth place and see what they've got.
..................................................

rcbs makes cowboy dies just for lead bullets. I have a set for both my 30-30 and 45-70. they work great. I think you may be able to get just the expander die at midwayusa.com.

Can you answer me a question? Does the RCBS unit expand as well as bell? I've never used one of theirs before.

Joe

[Wind]

Hey there Joe - What took ya so long?? Yep the RCBS expander die also flares. Use the least amount of flare you can get by with. It will increase the longevity of your cases. I'll also second that 10 grains of Unique under a 170 grain (gas checked) bullet load recommendation, but don't tell anyone I said so!! Best regards. Wind

[J Miller]

wind and flatnose,

Thanks for the confirmation and load data.

Joe

[jhrosier]

Joe,
I use a Lyman M die for most of my cast bullet loading, however, I have used a tapered punch from my tool box for some calibers that I don't have an M die.
It takes a bit of fussing to find the right amount of bell the first time out.
I put a bit of magic marker or a piece of masking tape on the punch so I get about the same amount of bell each time. I don't think that it is critical to have it perfect, just a bit larger than the bullet.

When I had a bunch to do, I put the punch in my drill press and set the depth stop to control the amount of flare. It worked very well.

Jack

[J Miller]

Joe,
I use a Lyman M die for most of my cast bullet loading, however, I have used a tapered punch from my tool box for some calibers that I don't have an M die.
It takes a bit of fussing to find the right amount of bell the first time out.
I put a bit of magic marker or a piece of masking tape on the punch so I get about the same amount of bell each time. I don't think that it is critical to have it perfect, just a bit larger than the bullet.

When I had a bunch to do, I put the punch in my drill press and set the depth stop to control the amount of flare. It worked very well.

Jack

Thanks for the tip Jack, I'll see if I can rig something like that up.

Joe

[LeverBob]

I have always used the M die, it does a good job.
I use bearcreek cast bullets @ $28.00 per 400. 10grns unique, or 8.5 grns of green dot. Accurate in my rifle.

FN...I've been using that load (10 grs. Unique, 170 cast) since about 1964. I do believe it is the Holy Grail for 30 WCf for small game & plinking. Ed Harris uses that load. I think everybody found that load.

It's an old load that goes back to the beginning of Unique. Haven't used it on deer (it will work on deer out to about 100 yrds. or so I'm told by old timers), but have used it on tons of small game. Works in any 30 WCF rifle. Any decent cast 170 gr. boolit. No recoil at all. Great for training 'youngins & the ladies love it.

If you take your kin out to shoot, better make 500 loads...they'll shoot every one of them in no time!

Best to you pard...

LB

[Lefty Dude]

Just buy the lyman "M" die for 30 caliber. It's the best one I have used.

I use mine for 30-30, 30 remington, .308 & 30-06

[txpete]

Just buy the lyman "M" die for 30 caliber. It's the best one I have used.

I use mine for 30-30, 30 remington, .308 & 30-06

+1 it also works on the 7.62X54R and 7.7 jap

pete

[Noah Zark]

I'll also second that 10 grains of Unique under a 170 grain (gas checked) bullet load recommendation, but don't tell anyone I said so!! . . .

Thirds!

And 12 gr of Unique under a 150 gr cast bullet.

Noah

[tdoor]

Hi -

As others have noted, the Lyman M dies works well, I've used one in 30 for 30-30/308 for many years. However, more recently I've been using the Lee Universal die for a variety of other cartridges : less expensive, covers me for 45's, 43's, 40's 35's 33, 25's & 32's too.
tdoor
ps- the Unique load noted is a fine one. For the 30-30/32 spl/32Rem that use for deer hunting however, I use about 28 grains +/- of H4895 (depends on specific gun/cartridge), with some success and zero leading- no deer has ever complained:)

[Don McDowell]

Another get the "M" die guy here.
If you're short on unique then run 15 grs of 2400, and if you have any of that 5744 left go with 18 grs.

[jlchucker]

Another + for the Lyman M die. One thing about this that may be worth noting--Lyman sells their M dies in a "short" and "long" designation. The real difference, I found, isn't in the die itself, but in the stem and flaring part inside. The external part of these short and long dies appear to all be the same. Some day, when you decide to try cast bullets in something like 30-06 (and they work very well in that caliber) you could get by with only a new stem for the 30-30 die you already have.

I found this out the hard way once when a Lyman quality slipup was discovered when I ordered a short M die to use in loading 25-20. I got one with a stem that was perfect for 25-06. Then ended up sending me a new stem because what I had wouldn't reach what I was trying to flare.

[Modoc ED]

Why waste your time Joe. The writing is on the wall. It won't be long before lead bullets/projectiles will be banned across the country -- especially, on public owned lands. If you don't have them, why bother to invest in expanders for lead bullets?

I know, I know, I'm just an old pessimist. Enjoy your new lead bullet adventure.

[w30wcf]

Joe,
DEFINITELY, get the Lyman "M" die. It is superior to the rest for the most accurate bullet seating.

w30wcf

[cfplinker]

I too am just now starting to cast for rifle calibers and have chosen to start with the 30-30. Lyman catalogs a number of M dies. They generally use either the short M1 body which is about 2.88 inches long or the long M2 body which is about 3.35 inches long. For 30 caliber, you can get the 30R plug or the 31R plug. The 30R sizes the neck to .306 and flares the mouth to .310. The 31R sizes the neck to .310 and flares the mouth to .315. This compares to the .307 diameter of the expander on my RCBS die. If you look at the Midsouth or the Lyman catalog you will see the M dies described as 30S, 30L, 31S, and 31L. This tells you which plug (30 or 31) and which body (Short or Long) you are getting. Both of these come with a stem (Lyman calls it a plug holder) that is 1.75 inches long. The short body will work with cases up to about 2.25 inches long while the long body works with cases longer than about 2 inches. The overlap covers the 30-30 and 308 cases so you can use either die with these lengths.

You didn't say what diameter you will be sizing your bullets to. This may determine whether you need the 30R or 31R plug in that if you are sizing the bullet to .311 or .312 the 30R may not expand the neck far enough.

[J Miller]

I too am just now starting to cast for rifle calibers and have chosen to start with the 30-30. Lyman catalogs a number of M dies. They generally use either the short M1 body which is about 2.88 inches long or the long M2 body which is about 3.35 inches long. For 30 caliber, you can get the 30R plug or the 31R plug. The 30R sizes the neck to .306 and flares the mouth to .310. The 31R sizes the neck to .310 and flares the mouth to .315. This compares to the .307 diameter of the expander on my RCBS die. If you look at the Midsouth or the Lyman catalog you will see the M dies described as 30S, 30L, 31S, and 31L. This tells you which plug (30 or 31) and which body (Short or Long) you are getting. Both of these come with a stem (Lyman calls it a plug holder) that is 1.75 inches long. The short body will work with cases up to about 2.25 inches long while the long body works with cases longer than about 2 inches. The overlap covers the 30-30 and 308 cases so you can use either die with these lengths.

You didn't say what diameter you will be sizing your bullets to. This may determine whether you need the 30R or 31R plug in that if you are sizing the bullet to .311 or .312 the 30R may not expand the neck far enough.

Now I read this, "after" I've sent in my order. Arrrgghhhhhhhh!!!!!!

[J Miller]

cfplinker,

Just double checked with the Midway folks and they do not have the different plug sizes in their product info. All the guy could give me was the Lyman Product #. That is 7340003. Can you tell what version this is from that number?
Also the bullets I have are .310".

Thanks,

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
Yep...that's the one. The Lyman 30S die is the one for the .30-30. It will have the expander for the .310" bullet.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p ... ber=409943

w30wcf

[shdwlkr]

J Miller
I am also getting into casting in sort of big way have 40 moulds at last count an am on the look out for more, as to lead going away maybe but so could firearms with any bullet.
Life is meant to be enjoyed and as long as I can I will do what pleases me and give me some fun times.
I also cast my own bullets now when I can't find commercial bullets
Just for you my collection of levers is now at 7 and growing, I hope to build a lever action 256 win mag next year. Why because I can and I have been looking at a few other levers just to add to the herd. Money is short this year so looking is all I can do.

[junkbug]

I use the Lee expander die. It has a plug that can be flipped either way for a large range of calibers. It may not be truly universal, but has worked to my satisfaction for everything from 6.5mm Carcano to 45/70 Gov. Consistency is in the manner of use, and it fits right onto my Lee hand press.

Maybe not good enough for cast boolit bench rest, but good enough to make ammo as accurate as I can hold off an informal shooting bench position.

Sean

[cfplinker]

The Lyman numbers are:
7349003 for the 30S
7349002 for the 30L
7343006 for the 31S
7349005 for the 31L.

If you have an M die and just need a plug, Lyman sells them as parts for $4.00. If you have the long die body and need the long stem (plug holder) to use with a case shorter than about 2 inches, Lyman also has them for $3.00. The shipping will be another $4.00 to $6.00 of course.

[Lefty Dude]

The Lyman "M" die was designed for lead bullet expanding & belling. I do not know about the Lee or the others.

I have always bought and used the Lyman, because they work very well.

[J Miller]

w30wcf, cfplinker,
Thanks for the confirmation and extra info. I'll bookmark this thread for when I need it again.

shdwlkr,
I don't know how many molds I have. Most of them are handgun caliber bullets, with only one being for a rifle. I used to cast a lot before I got married. I lived with my mom who was a smoker and she didn't seem to care if I stunk up the house casting on the kitchen stove.
Unfortunately my wife and two of the step kids had asthma and that pretty much curtailed my indoor casting. I pretty much quit as I had a lot of things in the way.
I have continued buying molds though. I have a few now that I haven't even used.
That should be interesting when I can get set up to cast again.

junkbug, Lefty Dude,
I prefer the standard angled belling dies on my pistol caliber cartridges. The Lyman M die has one requirement that really makes it a pain in the @$$ to use on pistol cartridges, that is the cases must be all the same length or the M die will not work. So for my .45s, 38s, .357s, I use the belling dies in my RCBS sets.

Now for the 30-30 cases, those I can keep trimmed to the same length so the M die will work fine. It should keep the bullets from being scraped up as they are seated.

Joe

[Chuck 100 yd]

The M die is the best. It also enlarges the case mouth a little more than the average full length sizing die with an expander ball. Cast bullets do not need a lot of bullet pull and they endure less damage on seating with the m die. (why force a .310/.311 bullet into a case mouth that is sized to .306 and expect that soft bullet to not be damaged)
15gr. 2400 or 18 gr IMR 4198 are very good under 150/180 gr. cast bullets. Have fun!!

[Modoc ED]

Hi Joe. It's me again.

I tried to order some LEE dies a while back and couldn't find any anywhere so I tried ordering direct from LEE and lo-and-behold, I had them four days later.

Since these reloading components are getting harder to find these days, try ordering directly from the OEM company. Maybe Lyman will shoot you out some of those M dies you had such a hard time finding.

I was joshing you above. Hope your new found lead bullet interest works out for you.

[LeverBob]

I too am just now starting to cast for rifle calibers and have chosen to start with the 30-30. Lyman catalogs a number of M dies. They generally use either the short M1 body which is about 2.88 inches long or the long M2 body which is about 3.35 inches long. For 30 caliber, you can get the 30R plug or the 31R plug. The 30R sizes the neck to .306 and flares the mouth to .310. The 31R sizes the neck to .310 and flares the mouth to .315. This compares to the .307 diameter of the expander on my RCBS die. If you look at the Midsouth or the Lyman catalog you will see the M dies described as 30S, 30L, 31S, and 31L. This tells you which plug (30 or 31) and which body (Short or Long) you are getting. Both of these come with a stem (Lyman calls it a plug holder) that is 1.75 inches long. The short body will work with cases up to about 2.25 inches long while the long body works with cases longer than about 2 inches. The overlap covers the 30-30 and 308 cases so you can use either die with these lengths.

You didn't say what diameter you will be sizing your bullets to. This may determine whether you need the 30R or 31R plug in that if you are sizing the bullet to .311 or .312 the 30R may not expand the neck far enough.

Now I read this, "after" I've sent in my order. Arrrgghhhhhhhh!!!!!!

Joey...you're OK. You probably ordered the short body & the .308 plug. It will handle the .310s & .311s with no trouble

LB

[oldboot]

I have been using the Lee Universal Expander for a while now and I have no complaints. It takes a little adjustment but once you bell the case mouth just right you will not have any problem seating the cast bullet. After I seat the bullet I crimp it with the Lee Crimping Die with excellent results. It seems that the Crimping Die squares everything out. By the way, I use 7 grains of Unique under 170gr cast bullet for my practice/small game load. This load works great in my winchester and not so great in my marlin. Not alot on muzzle blast or recoil.