OT: Blowing up your shotgun with brass shells

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:21 pm

Gents, I am seriously contemplating purchasing a beautiful old SxS sidelock made around the mid-1870's that is for sale at the local shooting supplies. It locks up tight as a vault, breeches tightly on face, patches of case coloring, shiny bore, damascus barrels, etc. made by J.P. Clabrough. It has 2 & 1/2" chambers, which may explain that it doesn't seem to have seen much use in the past 100 years. Don't bother giving me all the usual urban legends regarding damascus barrels. Sherman Bell has laid those to rest in this year's issues of The Double Gun & Single Shot Journal.

There is one big warning on various internet sites regarding using brass shells in double barrelled shotguns. Specifically, the cartridge in the second barrel gets its shot load shoved forward during the recoil of the first barrel. The shooter then fires the second barrel with the shotload already partway down the barrel and ends up bulging or blowing up the barrel. The solution that some use is to put a card over the shot, and then pour in a thin layer of 'Waterglass' (sodium silicate, available at the pharmacy).

Question for those who actually use brass cartridges in their 12 gauge and use Waterglass to seal and anchor the overshot card and shoot these loads in a double barrel.

How many years have you been doing this?

Approximately how many brass case/waterglass rounds have you fired?

Have you ever observed the waterglass-sealed brass cases getting the shotload breaking the waterglass seal?

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:55 pm

Kirk, I'd love to be able to answer your question, but alas I can't. I did buy that L.C. Smith I posted a while back. Can you believe it my administration was going to chop it up until I saw them carrying towards the back door of the office and saved it from a miserable death. Love those old doubles. I need to re do the forend as the original is shattered beyond repair, but that'll just take a little bit of work and add more sentiment to me. I'll post some pics when I get it done.

shawn_c992001 · Post by **shawn_c992001** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:58 pm

Doesn't some manufacturer have something called "Vintage Doubles" loads available now for older guns? No idea about the 2 1/2" shells though. Aguila makes those "Mini Shells" I figure those should be pretty safe, come in 7 1/2 shot and slugs, I think some buck shot too possibly.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:02 pm

I have loaded brass shotgun shells for about 5 years. I have used that product and I have also used melted wax to hold the shot card in place. I currently use them for my circa 1890's Midland hammer gun 12 bore and my damascus barrelled parker 20 gauge. I have had zero problems with either problems. I agree with you, the damascus barrels are not a concern if they are sound to start with. I am sure Joe can weigh in on that. I have shot lots of damascus side by sides and I have not found 2 1/2 inch shells to be a problem to find.

Barcelona Rick · Post by **Barcelona Rick** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:05 pm

KirkD,

When I was a kid I had an old worn out Newport 12 ga S X S...I bought a Lee Loader and had one box of Remington hulls. I used the power piston wad, PB powder and number 5 shot....I reloaded these hulls so many times that the crimp wouldn't hold and sometimes the shot would come loose. Now I am not recommending this but I would use a cardbord overwad (cut out of what ever I had laying around) and a dab of silicon on top. This always worked and I shot these hulls until they finally failed at the brass. You are correct...the last year of Double Gun and Single Shot Journal has been interesting about firing the proof loads....

jumbeaux

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:20 pm

Over here 21/2" is also known as 65mm, apart from 65mm being available we can also get 67mm which are ok in a 21/2" gun.
Is all your ammo 70mm/23/4" these days apart from 3" and 31/2"?

Sorry I can not help but then again ,,,,, I do remember speaking to a wildfowler whome stalked the forshore ditches with an 8gauge. When I looked at one of his brass cartridges the over shot card was held in place by bluetack!

A little bit of cleverness and a star crimping tool may allow you to just nip the edges of that case in six places to hold a tight card!!!!

One more thing, I don't get my loads creeping forward in the unused barrel of my M/L shotgun no matter how many times I fire just the right barrel. I only use cards, cards for wads and one on top of the shot. Even real thin ones don't move when cut from my own made card punch.
It cuts them around .735" IIRC.

When I made .410 loads with 444M brass I put a very slight roll crimp using 243 sizer die IIRC to keep the card in place, the brass was too thick but a good chamfering made it ok.

HTH KD, nice find.

Nath.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:30 pm

give 'em both barrels...

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:12 pm

You know, of course, that the double-barrel muzzleloading shotguns have the same problem. Just thought I'd mention it as they have no case on which one could slightly turn the case mouth down to hold the over-shot card wad. Sometimes the problem is improperly fit wadding which was made for paper or plastic shells. Might this be a problem with brass cases and their thinner case walls?

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:28 pm

Kirk,

When loading all-brass shotgun shells I seal the overshot wad around the rim of the shell with a sparing amount of plain old Elmer's glue. Never had one lose the wad prematurely.

I have had problems chambering brass shells that are ever so slightly out-of-round. My doubles won't chamber them at all, but my Winchester '97 will with a forceful forward stroke of the pump action.

I prefer forgetting the all-brass shells and using paper hulls. They are very easy to obtain, can be trimmed to 2.5" with the trimmer available from Ballistic Products, and a MEC 600JR loader can be set to load the shorter shells using a standard folded crimp.

I have a mint old Ithaca 10 ga. hammer damascus double that is chambered for 2 5/8" shells, and this method is working well for me.

Good Luck!

SHASTA

perry owens · Post by **perry owens** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:54 pm

I have used the CBC brass shotshells since they were first available, about 8 years ago as I recall. I use 11gauge wads for a nice tight fit and used a waterglass seal up until recently. I must have fired about 5-600 rounds through a double and my 1897 without any problems. When I went to live in the US I left some loaded rounds in store back in the UK and when I came home after 5 years I found that the waterglass had become very brittle and lost its adhesion. Nowadays I use a thin bead of silicone bath sealant to fix the overshot wad in place - I fill a medical syringe from the sealant cartridge and use it to spread the sealant around the case. I fired 100 rounds today through my coach gun with no problems. The load I use is 80 grains of FFG, milk carton overpowder wad,5/8in lubed fiber wad. 1 1/4oz #7 shot and a 1/8in overshot wad. I made my own wad cutter so the wads are a tight fit in the Magtech cases.

fatoldfool · Post by **fatoldfool** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:04 pm

I am with Shasta, all I ever used on my 10 ga heavy loads was Elmers Glue. I always loaded them a few days in advance of firing so they would dry well....Never had a problem. As far as those Damascus barrels, well, after seeing one vent through the side about a foot in front of the breech, I am afraid of them....You guys go ahead and use them. I won't even though I did before seeing that.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:12 pm

I think I would use Federal Champion paper cases shortened to proper length and roll crimped. Remember the 2 1/2 " measurement is of the shell after firing with the crimp opened up.

I have a bunch of Fed. Champion paper trap cases that are once fired. If you want a hundred or so. You can have them for the postage.

OH Kirk, I forgot you were in Canada. Any problem shipping there?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:17 pm

Thanks a lot fellows for all that input. I want to load my shells by hand without any press or dies, so that is why I'm leaning toward brass hulls. A question for the fellows who use silicone as the overshot sealent for the card ....... I'll be shooting black powder. Does the silicon cause any problems with black powder fouling?

Chuck .... just saw your post. No problem to ship to my sister-in-laws in the USA. They can bring them up. PM is about to be sent. Thanks.

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:36 pm

My dad bought a muzzle-loading shotgun by mail order back in the early 60's. He didn't know it had damascus barrels until it arrived. He told us about the horror stories of what was likely to happen if we shot it and it's been hanging on his wall ever since. Though it has been years since I examined it, I remember the nipples were severely corroded and may be impossible to remove,

Let's say that I can get the nipples out and find replacements through Dixie. Where would I go from there to check out the shootability of it with black powder?

(Kirk, forgive me if this drifts your thread too far off course).

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:28 pm

Well, with the barrels off the gun they should ring rather than give a thud which would indicate a major separation of the layers. Not all pattern steel barrels were actually pattern welded. Some process was used to make some look pattern welded much as Ruger uses to make a color case on the New Vaqueros. But a muzzleloader, I'm not sure what Dad was expecting, a modern repro perhaps.

TX Gun Runner · Post by **TX Gun Runner** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:30 pm

Damascus barreled gun should NEVER , I said NEVER be shot with anything . The Damascus barrel a very very unsafe to shoot due to rust and age . You are rolling the dice when you shoot one . If you shoot one warn the guy next to you , you are shooting one and to stand back so he don't get hurt too . I got hit with the pieces of barrel and forearm of one blowing up next to me . Quote "I've own this gun and shot it for over 40 years " . The gun was in like new condition . I should have sued the ******* for my medical bills . http://www.republicmetallic.com/page12.html

OI phones in... · Post by **OI phones in...** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:34 pm

RE: 2-1/2" shells (16ga)

Polywad corp ( http://polywad.com/ ) sells 2.5" in both their "Vintager" low pressure series and in their "Spread-R" series. Both types work well. I'm quite pleased with the product.

BUT I too am looking to start loading brass for my Drilling. Just seems more proper somehow - and easier/cheaper than cases of plastic hulled ammo.

Barcelona Rick · Post by **Barcelona Rick** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:40 pm

KirkD....I only used smokeless PB powder with the silicon....

jumbeaux

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:22 pm

I have to agree with tn gun runner, when I was gunsmithing we went through the same thing with Damascus barrels. I had customers that shot DUCK loads through their old guns for years with no problem. But that's just scary! I saw only one blown up Damascus shotgun in the shop. It had blown with a light field load.
The problem is the way those barrels were laminated together. Moisture gets into the microscopic seams both internally and externally and over 75-100 years create weak pockets of corrosion that can cause a failure. And with the higher pressure smokeless powders they could let go on the first shot or the 1000th shot. Remember how BP residue absorbs moisture. It's virtually impossible to clean a BP barrel quickly enough to prevent some moisture collecting in the barrel. Also old timers treated their guns as tools, and most didn't do a very good job of maintanance.
High quality guns Smiths, Parkers, etc. are probably safer than the cheap SxS that are out there, but I recommended to my customers to hang that old gun on the wall and get a modern gun to replace it.

perry owens · Post by **perry owens** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:06 am

Kirk,
The silicone seal seems to blow out with everything else and does not cause me any cleaning problems. My loading tool is a piece of wooden dowel to press the wads in but I do have a 12gauge shell holder so I can use my Ram Prime to insert the large pistol primers that the CBC shells use.
Perry Owens

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:29 am

Loads of twist damascus barrels are reproofed over here all the time and pass.
Using smokeless in a heavy patinered gun is not to clever IMO. BP is fine in a sound looking example.
Lets remember lots of modern barrels burst too for all sorts of reasons!!

Hobie has it and Perry, go up a size in the wading. I guess thats just what I did. (In my M/L).

What you hunting Kirk with it?

Nath.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:17 pm

Nath, I might use it for pheasant or grouse, as well as geese and varmints.

For those of you who are a bit nervous about Damascus barrels, I've been hearing dire statements about Damascus barrels for over 30 years. However, there are a lot of damascus (laminated) barrels still in use today. This past year, Sherman Bell wrote a couple test reports on these old damascus barrelled shotguns. They included two major types ...... old beaters that were badly worn and very loose ...... and cheap old beaters, shotguns made from cheap belgian damascus barrels. He fired modern Remington hi pressure smokeless PROOF loads through all of them, making a total of 1,100 detailed measurements before and after. The result was that some of the actions loosened up and some of the old stocks split or broke off, but them old cheap, worn, pitted damascus barrels emerged unscathed. Keep in mind we are talking about cheap old beaters that even I, in my most irresponsible teenage years, would never have fired.

The urban myth seems to be this: if a modern shotgun blows up, it was because of a barrel obstruction, but if a shotgun with damascus barrels blows up, it was those durn tootin' damascus barrels.

The real story seems to be this: both modern shotguns and old damascus barrelled shotguns blow up from time to time, and they blow up for exactly the same reasons ..... either a barrel obstruction or an overcharge.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:52 pm

I posted my query about the possible danger of brass shells on a forum up here in Canada to see if anyone had any prolonged experience with them in SxS shoguns. For the sake of those who might be following this thread with the same questions, here's the best I've got on the Canadian forum .....

"I've been shooting brass in my SXS's for about 12 years now, and have NEVER seen this problem.
I cannot fathom a shotload halfway down a barrel and with resitance enough to cause that kind of a pressure spike.
I have used spray contact cement, crazy glue, and latly just a dab of silicone to seal my shells.
I use FFG and Pyrodex in my guns, and they kill flying things and clay birds quite well"

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:15 pm

Thems picture are going to be real good

N.

TX Gun Runner · Post by **TX Gun Runner** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:15 pm

So how do we check a Damascus barrel for broken or fractured welds? This is were we leave the gunsmith’s shop and head over to the automotive machine shop. What’s a 120 year old gun barrel and a 500 hp hemi V8 have in common? Both should have been magna fluxed. This is a non-destructive process that allows any fractures or broken welds to become visible. If any show up then the gun becomes a wall hanger or gets re-barreled. If you know more then the experts just keep jamming the shell in it and if your lucky it will never blowup and hurt anyone next to you . When you proof test it I hope you did not crack a weld doing it . http://www.republicmetallic.com/page12.html ........ http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/damascus_barrels.html

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:53 pm

Magna flux is a good thing to do, but if there is a crack there, a modern high pressure proof load is going to change the dimension of the bore in the area of the crack. Sherman Bell took numerous measurements down the bore of each old shotgun he tested, before and after. Actions loosened up, stocks cracked, but the bore dimensions remained the same. One thing I wish Sherman Bell had done in his testing is to keep firing proof loads in the most badly pitted of his damascus barrels to see how many it would take before letting go. Judging from his results, however, the action and stock would pack it in before the barrel would. As for me, however, I won't be firing any proof loads in my old shotgun. It will be a black powder gun. Also, I've heard of so many modern shotguns blowing up over the past 35 years that I think I'll just stick with old antique shotguns with damascus barrels just to be safe.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:04 pm

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:59 pm

KirkD wrote:Gents, I am seriously contemplating purchasing a beautiful old SxS sidelock made around the mid-1870's that is for sale at the local shooting supplies. It locks up tight as a vault, breeches tightly on face, patches of case coloring, shiny bore, damascus barrels, etc. made by J.P. Clabrough. It has 2 & 1/2" chambers, which may explain that it doesn't seem to have seen much use in the past 100 years. Don't bother giving me all the usual urban legends regarding damascus barrels. Sherman Bell has laid those to rest in this year's issues of The Double Gun & Single Shot Journal.

There is one big warning on various internet sites regarding using brass shells in double barrelled shotguns. Specifically, the cartridge in the second barrel gets its shot load shoved forward during the recoil of the first barrel. The shooter then fires the second barrel with the shotload already partway down the barrel and ends up bulging or blowing up the barrel. The solution that some use is to put a card over the shot, and then pour in a thin layer of 'Waterglass' (sodium silicate, available at the pharmacy).

Question for those who actually use brass cartridges in their 12 gauge and use Waterglass to seal and anchor the overshot card and shoot these loads in a double barrel.

How many years have you been doing this?

Approximately how many brass case/waterglass rounds have you fired?

Have you ever observed the waterglass-sealed brass cases getting the shotload breaking the waterglass seal?

Forget waterglass. I use a thin overshot card (make sure it is a good fit, usually an 11 ga card is needed) and a small dollop of Elmers PROBOND CARPENTERS GLUE (not white glue, the yellow stuff), swished around with a Q tip. Ya just need enough to make a little bead around the edges, not a ton. It's shock proof, water resistant, and hermetically seals yer BP case. I've dropped em, shot em in the rain, cold, etc, and never had a failure. No residue in the fired shell worth worrying about, just load em again and whatever minimal crud is left makes the next gluing stick even better.

Shooting CAS I have run thousands of em through a SXS with ZERO issues. Waterglass can fail if ya look at a box of shells crossways, leave em in a cold car, etc.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:09 pm

Excellent experience, adirondakjack. Based on your experience, that glue sounds like it has a proven track record. Thanks.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:54 pm

I use a 12 ga. chamber brush on the inside of the case mouth, this roughs up the brass wall and helps the Elmers to attach the brass more secure.
I like AJ, have never had a OSC let go. I shoot lots of 16 ga. brass shell loads with my SXS double and my Winchester 97/16.

I have 50 Hammer Double shells,with 209 primers. And 150 magtech's, that use the large pistol primers.

It's the waterglass users that have the spillage.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:27 pm

KirkD wrote:Excellent experience, adirondakjack. Based on your experience, that glue sounds like it has a proven track record. Thanks.

FWIW I started out using Duco cement, but it's messy and a pain to use. One day I ran out, grabbed the 16 ounce bottle of probond which I had around anyway (which is only like $5) and tried it. You can use a 16 ounce bottle of probond for YEARS, it's water-soluable when wet, so any drips come off with a wet paper towel, has no odor, (for those loading in momma's living room like I was then) and Walnuts carries it.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:55 am

KirkD wrote:Excellent experience, adirondakjack. Based on your experience, that glue sounds like it has a proven track record. Thanks.

Kirk,
I've been shooting BP loads in brass or plastic for 18 years. These were for my CAS shotguns and I would say easily thousands down range now. I too started with sodium silicate but have for years been using the yellow carpenter glue. I was using the brass hulls before they were reproduced. I found something better and the prices of the antigue brass hulls went crazy so I sold all 300 of them.
Now days I use the all plastic ACTIV hulls. They are getting hard to find but I have enough to last me. The part that goes bad on a plastic hull is the crimp. So I cut them off and still glue a OSC in with the wood glue. IT's really simple. I just re-prime, reload, no cleaning or resizing needed. (That was a PITA with the alll brass).
On occassion, we will have a tough knock down target that just doesn't want to go down. I have a special load for it. Just before I put the card over the shot i pour in about a tablespoon of glue over the shot, then add the card and glue. Slugs aren't legal for SASS but it's just a wad of stuck together shot, right.

Here's one of my favorites. It's sidelever 12ga much like the one used in the Kevin Costner Wyatt Earp movie.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:38 am

Excellent confirmation for Elmer's yellow Carpenter's glue! Looks like that is what I'll be using. Regarding 'stuck together shot', another fellow up here in Canada achieves something similar by pouring molten wax into the shot. He found that it made one big hole in the paper, except for a few shot balls that came unstuck. I wonder if that would make a good deer load?

Mike Hunter · Post by **Mike Hunter** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:30 pm

Kirk
May want to post your question over on the DoubleGun Forum, lots of good folks there that know and shoot fine old doubles, to include Damascus.

Mike

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:28 pm

Thanks, Mike. I didn't know about that forum.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:19 pm

KirkD wrote:Thanks, Mike. I didn't know about that forum.

Well then you must not be reading my blog! I'm hurt and offended!!!

Seriously, that's one of the forums I list on my blog. I tried to winnow the wheat from the chaff on forums. I'm registered on over a hundred...

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:28 pm

When you need the shot to stay together longer, but still pattern, try vasoline in with the shot. Get ya another 20 yards.

Gobbler

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:35 pm

Gobblerforge, Wow--Vaseline Can you really use that??? How about on 00Buck??

OI phones in... · Post by **OI phones in...** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:38 pm

Lefty Dude wrote:.... I shoot lots of 16 ga. brass shell loads with my SXS double and my Winchester 97/16.

I have 50 Hammer Double shells,with 209 primers. And 150 magtech's, that use the large pistol primers...

Which do you like better?

I want to start loading 16Ga brass...

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:44 pm

KirkD wrote:Excellent confirmation for Elmer's yellow Carpenter's glue! Looks like that is what I'll be using. Regarding 'stuck together shot', another fellow up here in Canada achieves something similar by pouring molten wax into the shot. He found that it made one big hole in the paper, except for a few shot balls that came unstuck. I wonder if that would make a good deer load?

Before the "Home Guard" were issued .303s in WW2 some 12 gauge shells were treated to the hot wax treatment to make them more lethal, I've even heard of the Home Guard cutting 16 gauge shells down and the portion containing the shot pushed into a 12 gauge shell that only contained powder and wads.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:25 pm

OI phones in... wrote:
Lefty Dude wrote:.... I shoot lots of 16 ga. brass shell loads with my SXS double and my Winchester 97/16.

I have 50 Hammer Double shells,with 209 primers. And 150 magtech's, that use the large pistol primers...
Which do you like better?

I want to start loading 16Ga brass...

Hammer Double shells are no longer available. For hunting Brass shells I would contact, Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co. There brass are CNC from brass bar stock, 209 primers are used and the inside of the hull is the same size as a plastic SG hull. You load with your favorite receipe. Either Smokless or BP.

I use the Hammer double, & RMC's for hunting. Magtec's for CAS/SASS I use smokless loading only. I have 10 RMC's, they are quite pricey and $5.00 @.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:20 pm

Boys, I made the big purchase today ..... $475 for this old hammergun. Still has patches of case color on the action, bores are shiny, and it locks up with absolutely no play and the breeches are tight on face. I showed a bunch of detailed photos to a collector. He says the gun was made circa 1892-1893. Here's a couple quick photos ....

.... and here is its new location ....

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:26 pm

Congratulations Kirk! I know you will enjoy your new purchase. Unless I missed it, you never mentioned what gauge it is? I assume either 12 or 16. It is a very solid looking piece.

I used to collect old hammer doubles as they were easily obtained and cheap. One of the best reference books for these old shotguns is "The Golden Age of Shotgunning" by Bob Hinman. If you can find a copy it is a great reference covering early hunting, target shooting, and hundreds of early brand names of shotguns. A truly good read!

Keep us posted on your experiences with this shotgun.

SHASTA

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:43 am

Top man

Hows the choking? (Is there any?)

Does it fit ya?

Nath.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:06 pm

Nath, the right barrel is cylinder and the left is marked 'choke'. I don't know how much the choke is, but the right muzzle has a bore diameter of .734 and the left one has a bore diameter of .693. So someone who knows what kind of choke .693 could let us know.

As for fit, it seems to fit real nice, although I'm pretty flexible when it comes to fit.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:19 pm

KirkD wrote:Nath, the right barrel is cylinder and the left is marked 'choke'. I don't know how much the choke is, but the right muzzle has a bore diameter of .734 and the left one has a bore diameter of .693. So someone who knows what kind of choke .693 could let us know.

As for fit, it seems to fit real nice, although I'm pretty flexible when it comes to fit.

That sounds like full choke in 12g Kirk.

Cool, one barrel for the close stuff and the other for the long ones

Nath.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:13 pm

That's a fine looking Birmingham gun. They were quality pieces. I have an F Willaims "fine Damascas field gun" that is still as tight as a bank vault, but the stock broke when an old (poor) repair failed. Gotta get it together again one day.

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:16 pm

.040" = Full choke. Yours, .041" is called "Extra full choke".