30-30 - what is it good for?

[El Chivo]

Well I thoroughly enjoyed that last thread, so this takes a slightly different angle.

I am having trials and tribulations getting a nice accurate low-power load for 30-30, although my hunting load is fine. So, even though I hear so much about the versatility of the 30-30, it seems to me it's only good for one thing - deer sized game out to 200 yards.

Small game will explode if hit at 2000 fps, silhouette loads aren't that accurate, longer range hunting, well the bullets might hit but they won't expand (ask Barnes), a charging pig can live a long time with a .308 sized hole in him, a bear has to be hit right in the bridge of the nose to die, and coyotes can outrun the darn things.

So, except for deer, what is it good for?

[BlueStateSaint]

Seeing that the ballistics are almost exactly the same as those of the 7.62x39mm, look at what that round is used for, and you'll have your answer. For example, as a self-defense round, it's a pretty good one (for a long gun). And, you shouldn't attract a lot of undue attention brandishing a "cowboy gun" to protect yourself/home/family that you would if you were wielding an AK or an SKS.

It's early here. If this post offends someone, so be it.

[Borregos]

Looking for an accurate low power load?
I came back from the range yesterday having had a lot of fun with my old Winchester SRC 94 using 7.8gr of Trail Boss pushing a 150gr cast bullet. Nice soft load that will go under an inch at 50 yards off the bench

[JimT]

Well I thoroughly enjoyed that last thread, so this takes a slightly different angle.

I am having trials and tribulations getting a nice accurate low-power load for 30-30, although my hunting load is fine. So, even though I hear so much about the versatility of the 30-30, it seems to me it's only good for one thing - deer sized game out to 200 yards.

Small game will explode if hit at 2000 fps, silhouette loads aren't that accurate, longer range hunting, well the bullets might hit but they won't expand (ask Barnes), a charging pig can live a long time with a .308 sized hole in him, a bear has to be hit right in the bridge of the nose to die, and coyotes can outrun the darn things.

So, except for deer, what is it good for?

Please do not read this as a "slam" or "flame" ... but all your assessments of the 30-30 are based upon what you have experienced, not upon what has been done with the cartridge in the last 100 years.

Lighter powered loads have been developed by many that worked very well. Small game does not always "explode". The cartridge is being used in silhouette with excellent results. The Winchester 94 and 30-30 cartridge has been used very successfully for long-range hunting (the world record Big Horn Sheep being taken with a factory load at over 400 yards - using aperture sights in just one 'for instance'). Lots of bears including the big Brownies were taken using the gun and not with head shots (I believe the book to read is "Crusoe of Lonesome Lake" which chronicles Ralph Edwards war with the big bears in British Colombia) and we still kill lots of coyotes with it.

Just because you cannot or have not done it does not mean that it cannot or has not been done. It's a common mistake in this era .. to believe something does not work because I cannot make it work.

[J Miller]

You tell 'um Jim.

Joe

[madman4570]

I think Jim likes the 30-30 Me too Jim!

[JimT]

It's not always my first choice ... but to say something does not work because I can't make it work is a little short-sighted. I need to give El Chivo the benefit of the doubt as perhaps he did not mean it the way I read it.

Honestly though, most of the "30-30 is underpowered, short-range etc. etc." stuff ignores the history of the guns and cartridge. If riflemen and hunters made it work for almost everything 80 years ago, what has changed in the meantime so that it don't work?

Mostly it's us.

[Don McDowell]

"Low Powered' loads that are quite accurate are a dime a dozen. Many folks make the mistake of thinking they can use a hard cast bullet the same diameter as jacketed. If you're using cast bullets you need those bullets at least .001 over groove diameter, with .002 probably being preferrable.
There could be a problem with your rifle, that you can't get the accuracy you want. It could be something in your reloading technique.

What's the 30-30 good for? Anything you want it to be good for.
Read Jim T's 2 most excellent posts and think on it awhile.

[Old Savage]

If you knew El Chivo you would know he is asking an honest question. And, for instance, the question isn't can it be done as much as is this GOOD for this. Does anyone recommend the 30-30 for Brown Bears or 400 yd shots - I think not.

On the other hand it is good for much not normally expected by those who know what they are doing.

I once killed a possum in a chicken house with a 4 iron. Don't know it that is the recommended implement but it is better than a pitching wedge.

What the 30-30 is good for is evoking an emotional response.

[Kapincrunch]

El Chivo,
You a very funny man! LOL

[L_Kilkenny]

I can't think of one thing I wouldn't use a 30/30 for. It's main limiting factor for me is range. A lot of the coyotes I've shot with my 22-250 would have walked away laughing if I had a 30/30 in my hands. But the 30/30 has more than enough power to kill black bear, deer, coyote, antelope, small game and even elk, brown bear and moose. But it wouldn't be my first pick for a 300 or 400 yard shot on any of the above mentioned game. But let's face it, even out west where most hunters think they need a super flat shooting gun and big optics, all of the above mentioned game will be harvested "this year" with bows and front stuffers. I'm not talking past tense or ancient history in times when those weapons were all that was available but today, in modern times. So considering a 30/30 has about 4 times the range of a bow I guess range may not be as big of a deal as we like to think. I just need to learn to be a better hunter or adapt to a different style. Neither is a bad thing.

LK

[Old Savage]

Now, when you start including moose, brown bear and elk I think you need distinct qualifiers and I would like to hear what a brown bear guide would say when you told him you wanted to use your 30-30.

[L_Kilkenny]

OS, IIRC it wasn't that long ago that the .44 mag was the "go to" option for a handgun hunter going after Brownies. I can't imagine a guide liking a .44 hand cannon and disliking a 30/30.

LK

[Modoc ED]

You guys ought to get a hold of Sam Fadala's "Winchester .30-30 Model 94, The Rifle America Loves". Covers not only the rifle but hunting from little bunny rabbits right up to the big stuff. It is out of print but an excellent read if you can find a copy. I got mine from http://www.amazon.com .

Personally, I've used the Model 94 .30-30 for Elk and some years ago I got an Antelope not to mention many white tail deer and mule deer over the years. Oh, and by the way, if you hit a rabbit in the neck or head with a full load 150gr or 170gr .30-30 round, you do not blow it up. Even if you hit one in the shoulder, there is still some good serviceabe (edible) meat left on it.

Old Savage brought up the Brown Bear and 400-yard shots. I'd have to agree with him that 400-yard shots with the .30-30 are a stretch but many Brown Bears have been killed with a .30-30. When the "smokeless powder" .30-30 hit the market, it was hailed as the new do-all, end-all, round and many people used it for all manner of game.

Although I like having various rifles of various calibers, were I to have only one rifle and if it were a .30-30, I'd be a happy camper.

[O.S.O.K.]

The .30 WCF is good for all kinds of hunting, self defense and gaming (like lever silhouette, CAS long range, etc.).

Its easy to load down as mentioned with .309-.310" cast boolits and pistol powder for varmints, squirrel, etc. - the only limitation there is the leverguns that chamber it usually need an alternative sight as the issue sights won't regulate the "special" loads. But that's no biggy as they are almost all d/t'd for a receiver mount aperture sight.

Its also easy to load up in velocity with light jacketed bullets.

Its probably the most versitile rifle/carbine round available as it can be chambered in just about any kind of long gun along with single shot handguns like the Contender.

The .30 WCF was the cartridge that I used to take my first buck. It worked very well and still does.

If I were ever (God forbid) limited to owning just one rifle, it'd be a Marlin 336 chambered for 30-30 Win.

[Old Savage]

The 30-30 is not the most versatile round available.

[Buck Elliott]

It has just occurred to me that the ONE thing the .30-30 is best suited for is DISCUSSION...

Other than that, there is NOTHING for which the old .30 W.C.F is BEST-suited.

It does its job(s) and is fine for most things, but there are better cartridges around, and (blaspheme..) better guns for most jobs.

Going along with Jim's line of reasoning, I will say that the .30-30 has failed me on more than one occasion -- even when I did my part, and has served me well in other situations. So far, I have managed to avoid actually owning a .30-30, in any form, so all my experience with the cartridge has been with borrowed rifles. That aside, I did 'get to know' the various guns before I ever used them for serious purposes. and as I said, sometimes the little .30 did well, and sometimes NOT. While that can happen with ANY cartridge/gun combination, the .30-30's rate of failure, in my hands, is a problem I don't need. .44 Mag & .45 Colt leveerguns have proved to be far more reliable, in my hands...

to each his own, and God bless his choices...

[76/444]

I think the old faithful 30/30 is just like the numerous other middle power range cartridges, that have been used on everything in North America,...it all depends on who is shooting it and how well they do it.

[L_Kilkenny]

Other than that, there is NOTHING for which the old .30 W.C.F is BEST-suited.

It does its job(s) and is fine for most things, but there are better cartridges around, and (blaspheme..) better guns for most jobs.

I will say that the .30-30 has failed me on more than one occasion -- even when I did my part

I'll agree 100% with both of the first 2 lines. I can think of nothing the 30/30 and/or a lever gun can do that another gun or cartridge can't do better.

I'd like to know more about how the 30/30 failed you. With proper bullets/loads and an accurate, well placed shot I can't imagine how it failed. Not pickin a fight, just curious. I've seen deer run a long ways even with a well placed shot from a 12ga Foster slug. I also bow shot a buck 1 time and hit it high and over the belly. Shot didn't come anywhere close to the vitals. But that deer didn't run 100 yards before piling up. I hit the artery that runs along the back bone. Sometimes odd things happen and can't be explained. Sometimes you get lucky, other times not so much. Most of the time I wouldn't blame it on the caliber though.

Most of the time I think caliber wars are silly. Whether it be SD or hunting. The fact of the matter is that if you use "enough" gun a critter or person isn't going to know the difference givin equal shot placement. Obviously, I'm not talking about "undergunned" being OK. No .22LR or .22M deer for me thanks. Dead is Dead. Good shot is good shot.

LK

[Griff]

The cartridge is good for whatever purpose you wish to put it to... whether you are is an entirely different question.

[Blaine]

Ouch, ouch and OUCH.....Tough crowd today I'm not really a good enough hunter to chime in on this, but I'll say that just because a firearm/boolit CAN do something does not make it the best choice, IF you have something else better. Now...everyone have a Prozak

[Modoc ED]

The 30-30 is not the most versatile round available.

No it's not. It's not a long range round for sure. BUT it does a lot of things and kills a lot of things well.

Like I said above, if I were left with only a .30-30, I'd be a happy camper.

[Old Savage]

Well so would I. But then that would just require a different approach, which, might be more enjoyable.

[TedH]

The old 30-30 is good for what 99% of folks who own one use it for, short to mid range hunting for deer and anything down from that. I would take one of mine out for black bear over bait, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

[Old Savage]

LK, I can't imagine the guides liking that either. I just can't feature any professional just wanting to be close to a brown bear that a client had screwed up on with a 44 Mag pistol. No doubt some would do it. And, same with a 30-30 - marginal power for the job and you have clean up any mess this amateur creates?

And on killing anything dangerous with marginal power - just because it has happened doesn't mean it is a good idea to plan it.

[gundownunder]

There are perfect guns for everything from rabbits to rhinos and any distance from a few yards to a thousand yards but would you really want to go out and hunt with 3 rifles slung over each shoulder, or just the one that will do most things on most days most of the time.

[Borregos]

The 30-30 is a darned good round for handgun silhouette shooting as well as everything else, I know because I use it in a number of categories and got my first 40X40 with it

[Old Savage]

Wow, now we are at rhinos at 1000 yds - a new high water mark.

[meanc]

My hunting has been limited to coyote, hog, white tail, and mule deer. So far, the 30-30 has been good for whatever I've shot with it, from 30yds to 205yds.

Never had to shoot twice with it and never had to track anything more than 50yds.

The only time anything ever got more than 50yds away from me was a buck hit with a 30-06 at about 70yds. The hit knocked it down cold. After a couple of minutes of waiting I made my way to it. Half way out it got back up and ran off as fast as it fell. I found exactly six drops of blood.

After four hours of tracking I found it about 110yds away. The bullet hit a rib and almost completely flattened out. Several pieces penetrated into the top of the heart which eventually killed it.

The bullet was found just under the offside ribcage.

So, while the 30-06 may be a "better" cartridge in some's eyes, for my hunting, you'll have a hard time convincing me of it.

[Old Time Hunter]

What JimT and Griff said +2

[pokey]

just the one that will do most things on most days most of the time.

this is my whole philosophy.

i have others but the 30wcf is my favorite.

[gon2shoot]

Ok I'll chime in here. I've killed elk with a 22 and had yotes run off after being hit with a 375H&H.

The best gun or load is the one that you can shoot and gets the job done.

Chivo, for a lighter load 30-30 I like 15 to 18 gr. of 4198 under a cast boolit. Try it you'll like it

[El Chivo]

Chivo, for a lighter load 30-30 I like 15 to 18 gr. of 4198 under a cast boolit. Try it you'll like it

Thanks, I already tried 18 and 19, maybe I'll try the low end. But I wanted about 1600-1700 fps. But I do have the 4198 already.

Regardless of what I pick, my 30-30 targets look like they have the measles, whereas my .357 targets look like the Fruit-of-the-Loom logo. I shot a silhouette round with the .357, a new load, and got a 33. I did the same with the 30-30, and got a 17. One shot would bounce at the turkey's feet, the next would be 6 feet up the berm (I guess the high shot could be from a ricochet, but who knows?)

I've been trying 4895 and 4198 because they are Extreme Powders, as I sometimes shoot in 100 degree weather.

[Don McDowell]

If you're looking for good accuracy in the 1600ish area. Try 15 grs of 2400 , or 18 grs of 5744, or 9 grs of unique,or 12 grs of bluedot with your 150 or 170 gr bullets.
But if you don't get the cast bullets to at least 001 over groove diameter there's not going to be much hope of accuracy, and if those cast bullets have a gascheck step on the base, but no gas check seated,,, seat the gas check and watch things happen for the better.

Also should probably mention going into the barrel and doing some serious lead mining, before you do any more shooting. Pure gum spirits of turpentine on a patch and jag will lift alot of lead out of a "clean" bore. Leading begets leading ,and leading leads to poor accuracy. So if there's any lead any place in the bore it'll just continue to strip the bullets, and you'll continue to see bullets spray all over the place.

[76/444]

My hunting has been limited to coyote, hog, white tail, and mule deer. So far, the 30-30 has been good for whatever I've shot with it, from 30yds to 205yds.

Never had to shoot twice with it and never had to track anything more than 50yds.

The only time anything ever got more than 50yds away from me was a buck hit with a 30-06 at about 70yds. The hit knocked it down cold. After a couple of minutes of waiting I made my way to it. Half way out it got back up and ran off as fast as it fell. I found exactly six drops of blood.

After four hours of tracking I found it about 110yds away. The bullet hit a rib and almost completely flattened out. Several pieces penetrated into the top of the heart which eventually killed it.

The bullet was found just under the offside ribcage.

So, while the 30-06 may be a "better" cartridge in some's eyes, for my hunting, you'll have a hard time convincing me of it.

Hmmmm,... ought6 is one of my all time favorites, but I always prefer big and slow to small and fast. Have you tried the 220gr RN? I like what they do and how they do it up to 200 yards. It just may be the ticket to changing your opinion.

[Bogie35]

If you knew El Chivo you would know he is asking an honest question. And, for instance, the question isn't can it be done as much as is this GOOD for this. Does anyone recommend the 30-30 for Brown Bears or 400 yd shots - I think not.

On the other hand it is good for much not normally expected by those who know what they are doing.

I once killed a possum in a chicken house with a 4 iron. Don't know it that is the recommended implement but it is better than a pitching wedge.

What the 30-30 is good for is evoking an emotional response.

LOL! The pitching wedge would be a couple inches too short for safety's sake! Thanks OS!

bogie

[MrMurphy]

I've always thought of the .30-30 as one of the "one gun" calibers.

If someone isn't a rifleman or a "gun person" but have a rifle....the .30-30 will generally keep them covered. It's not perfect for any particular role but does reasonably well with most of them. A .30-30 was fine for my grandpa against deer and coyotes, and it served well enough for my grandma to see some bad guys off the back porch without firing a shot (Winchester 94).

It'll do the deed on various pest animals, handle larger ones with good shooting (and several extra shots just in case). There was a lady during the Gold Rush in Alaska whose husband died, living in the middle of nowhere with her kids. She ambushed 2 moose a year with a .30-30 Winchester as they came to drink. She didn't do a one shot stop, but a little 100lb woman dropped half a dozen moose with about 20 rounds and kept her family alive. She may have gotten some other smaller game as well, but you get the idea.

I'd rather have something with a larger magazine (AR15, etc) for defense out of personal familiarity, having lived with an M4 attached to me. But a Marlin 336 would do in a pinch (I had one as a truck gun for a while).

I think of it as the rifle equivalent of a .357 revolver. It won't do everything perfectly but it will get by doing most things well.