Tell me about your SAA clone...sorry, kinda wordy...

[azmark]

I went to a local gun shop yesterday and checked some things out. As much as I like the Blackhawk, there's just something about the SAA that draws me to it. I think it's one of the best-looking designs I've ever seen; I suspect there are lots of folks who agree.

If I'm going to save my hard-earned money for one of these guns, I want to do my homework first. There are so many companies that sell them that I need help sorting through these things. Before I went to the LGS, I read a bit on the internet, and it seemed that reviewers are really impressed with the USFA guns, but they are on the pricey side. Because of my budget, I was thinking about the Rodeo, although the matte finish doesn't look all that great. The guy at the shop is sold on Uberti and says he has had good luck with them, but he did say he has had to bend the front sight a tad to get it to shoot to point of aim. I read on another forum that Cimarron is made by Uberti, but finishes their product better. I'll have to check this out. Then there's the Beretta Stampede. Gun guy said they're a different design and not a true SAA clone, but the one I checked out a while back sure was purty! Oh yeah; I checked out a Heritage Big Bore once, and it seemed to be well-made.

This revolver will never see a cowboy shooting match. It will serve as a general purpose gun that's easier to pack than my 6" GP100 (I plan to get the 4 1/2 in. barrel). I'd like to hear from actual owners about accuracy, durability, whether their gun shot to poa without mods, warranties, customer service from the manufacturer, etc. All that boring stuff that makes for a sound purchase.

[kimwcook]

USFA is making a very nice SAA. In fact most writers and knowledgeable shooters say they are on par with or better than Colt's current production SAA's. The rodeo is the same gun as their high end pieces only a lower quality finish.

Most of the imports have some type of safety system and I believe the Beretta uses a transfer bar type system. They aren't true clones due to that aspect. But, most of them now are quality pieces. Just depends on what you want and what you want to get out of it if you have to sell it. Personally I'd get a Colt or a USFA. I know they're spendy, but that's just me.

It's not uncommon to have to turn a barrel to get POA on a SAA. tweaking the sight isn't something I'd do. I'd rather turn the barrel. That's if it's not being loosened. SAA's aren't target pistols and most shooters find the guns favorite load and then just compensate with Kentucky windage. They usually won't be that far off from the factory.

[DarryH]

Having owned replicas from Cimarron and Taylors, I'd say both are very nice. Many copies are made by Uberti, but each importer can
request special things to make theirs a bit different.

Personal opinion only here:
Old model Ruger Vaquero - built like a tank. accurate. fun, I like em!
negative: not a true clone, a bit heavier than I prefer.
I had a matched pair for cowboy shoooting for 7 years.
Never a single problem with them.

Ruger Blackhawks - same positives as the Vaquero.
Has adjustable sights.
negative: factory grip too short for me. Weight.

New Model Ruger Vaquero: Handles better than the original.
Only negeative is it is not a true SAA clone.

Cimarron and Taylor's. - Love them both. great quality and handling.
I feel I have loyalty to both companies, so I will NOT pick a favorite!!! Negative: to many models that I want, and I can't afford them all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uberti, EMF, Pietta, so many names. Most are very good guns.
Some have safties that I would like to see gone.
Many copies made by one manufacturer, then branded with other
company's lables. Have fun sorting them out.

THe original Colt SAA is expensive. It does install pride of ownership.
It does keep it's value much better than any copy.
If you can raise the funds, do it, you will never regret it.
Just make sure to hurry and fire that first round. If you dawdle, you may decide it is too pretty and valuable to shoot.
At that point you might as well consider it a paperweight, and useless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Shootin!!
DarryH

[Hobie]

I have the USFA CC and dome blue, a Henry Nettleton and an earlier USFA SA. WONDERFUL gun. We have a Rodeo at the shop. As good as mine in fit but the polish (time consuming which costs money) isn't there. I have a New Vaquero which is a good gun, just not quite as good but you can carry 6. Dittos my OM .41 Mag. I really like the Lipsey's .44 Specials. I just can't get excited about others' products except, of course, for Colts!

[J Miller]

Tell me about your SAA clone...sorry, kinda wordy...
Nah, mines a lot wordier.

But first a word about gun names: There is no such thing as an "Old Model" Vaquero. ALL Vaqueros are NEW MODELS.
There is only the VAQUERO which was made on the larger 44 size frame and discontinued in 2005, and the NEW VAQUERO which is made on the mid sized frame and introduced in 2005. They are marked as such on the left side of the cylinder frame below the cylinder opening.
No need to add incorrect qualifying terms.
VAQUERO and NEW VAQUERO is all you need.
Now back to our regularly scheduled post:

Tell me about your SAA clone... OK, here goes:

Part One: The story;

On March 15th, 1975 I bought my first center fire revolver. It was an Iver Johnson’s, Uberti made Cattleman revolver, Model C45, caliber .45 Colt serial #20891.

Two months later a neighbor fell in love with it and made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

A Ruger Blackhawk, a Colt Frontier Scout later I was back looking at another Cattleman revolver.

I bought a second Cattleman April 13th of 76, same model, and same caliber and shot this one quite a bit. It was serial # 28916.

As I was shooting the second Cattleman I noticed the timing was slipping. I pulled it down and looked and the end of the bolt that works with the cam on the hammer had a sharp edge on it. This edge had cut a grove in the hammer cam and that was causing the timing to slip.

About then I went into my favorite gun shop again and was going to ask the gunsmith to fix the problem when I noticed a Cattleman box on the counter. In it was a, or what was left of an Iver Johnson’s Cattleman. It was a wreck. Its serial number was 28928.
The story of this revolver I've told here before, but for those who have forgotten here's what Wendell Bond the stores owner told me.
Two young guys came in and bought one of these Cattleman revolvers for each of them. Some time later they returned and griped about one of the revolvers not working properly. But rather than return it for a refund or repair, they had taken a .22RF and shot it to pieces. Literally. In the box which had phonetic obscenities written on the outside were the remains.
The top strap of the frame was pock marked with bullet impacts and bowed down badly. The top three chambers of the cylinder were caved in. The ejector rod housing was bent badly. The loading gate, although badly dinged up was still unbent and functional. The brass grip frame and trigger guard were broken into pieces, and the one piece wooden grips were splinters. Strangely enough the action was undamaged. The hammer, still cycled, the notches were untouched. A sudden light bulb went off in my mind and I asked Wendell if he could sell it to me. He looked at me like I was totally off my rocker. I then explained that my other Cattleman was having trouble and the parts in the ruined one would probably fix them. He wasn’t sure he should sell it. He was afraid the guys might come back. I asked him if he really thought they’d be back after what they did to it. He sold it to me for $5.00. The hammer and bolt fixed up my shooter Cattleman just fine and so the old wreck got laid aside for a while.

Some time later I got curious. I rigged up a bolt with nut and washers and straightened the top strap enough that the cylinder from my shooter would enter and rotate. Then I put the wreck back together as much as possible and decided to see if it would hold together with some hot loads. Sort of a test. I asked around and was told that 10 grs of Unique under a 255 or heavier bullet would be a considerable over load for that revolver. I was casting my Keith bullets then and they cast out at 268grs. So I assembled three rounds of that load and took the wrecked Cattleman to a gravel pit near the Salt River bottom south west of Phoenix. I tied it to a big truck tire I found there, tied a string to the trigger, loaded the one good chamber in the ruined cylinder, cocked it and crouched down behind my car. I fully expected to see the gun go to pieces when I fired it, but when I pulled the string all I heard was a boom. I went to the gun, it was intact, extracted the fired round and put the second one in, and again crouched behind my car as I pulled the string.
I ended up firing all three of the “proof” loads and the wrecked cylinder and damaged frame held together. I put it back in its box and put it away.
Somewhere along the line, the brass parts got tossed into the scrap brass bucket and recycled, and the ruined cylinder got tossed. I regret that now, as I took no pictures of the carnage when I had all the remains.

Twenty years later I found it buried under the ammo cans on the shelf under my loading bench. I thought, maybe I should get this rebuilt. So I took it to a local gun shop and asked the gunsmith if he could send it out to be magnafluxed. (By that time Bonds Gun Shop had gone out of business.) Just to make sure there was no hidden stress cracks in the frame. It came back with a clean bill of health. I was surprised. I left it at the gun shop and then things went sour in Phoenix and I moved to IL. Several years later in 2001 my stepson went to AZ on his vacation. I gave him a letter of authorization to pick up the revolver and bring it back to me.

After he brought it back I took a few pictures of what I had left. Not much but here they are:

If you look at the upper left corner of the box that’s where the phonetic obscenities were written, they were scratched out before I got it.


Here’s an overall view of the frame and barrel. Pretty scarred up.


Top and right side. You can clearly see the pock marks from the .22 bullets.


Top view. Why the frame did not crack or fracture is one on me. Glad it didn’t though.

Fast forward to August of 2006, after much thought I contacted Steve Young of Steve’s Guns in Texas. He and I discussed various ways to repair this gun and so I shipped it off to him for an estimate in October of ‘06. The money I had for this got frittered away on other things so it sat in his shop for over a year. Then in April of 2007 with the govt “stimulus check” I was able to send him some money to get the project actually started.
At first I wanted to order all new parts and fix it that way. But that was just way too expensive. So Steve suggested he look for a donor gun and use the parts from that.
As much as I hate to part out a perfectly good gun to fix another one I said go ahead. It took quit a while to find just the right donor gun and then Hurricane Ike got in the picture, delaying things even further.

I got a phone call last week, Oct 27th ‘O8 from Steve. We discussed the project and he told me a lot of what he’d had to do with it. He said he was able to cold swage the remainder of the bow out of the top strap to within .005”. I said that should be close enough. Probably can’t even see .005” of bow. We were going to use the hammer from the donor gun, but the geometry wasn’t right. The timing was off. So he ended up repairing the original hammer. He told me he had to order an oversized base pin and cylinder bushing due to the fact the base pin holes in the frame were bigger than normal. And that he had put a taller front sight on per my request. He then asked me what we were going to do about refinishing the gun. I replied, nothing. Steve said the marks on the top strap are still there, so I replied; if you refinish the gun that will take away the marks. If the pock marks are removed, so is the story behind the pistol. That’s why I didn’t want it refinished. He also mentioned that the bluing on the barrel would be ruined when he put in the taller front sight. I said, I don’t care, I’d rather put up with that than have to aim at the ground to hit the target. Besides, I already have two .45 Colt revolvers with cold blued gunsmith custom taller front sights, so it will be right at home. Steve said it would be done soon, but he still had some parts coming in and he couldn’t say exactly when.

Last Wednesday, 10-29-08, I finally got the word, it was nearing completion. Send a check for the balance and it would be done pretty soon. Oh joy, WHOOPPIIIEEEEE!!!
Check sent, and I got an email with pictures of the results 10-31-08.

I’m overjoyed.
My 31 year Iver Johnson’s Cattleman project is finished.

Oh joy, I’m like a kid on Christmas Eve, I’m anxiously awaiting the delivery of my rebuilt Iver Johnson’s imported Uberti made C45 Cattleman .45 Colt.
I can’t stand the anticipation.



Part two: The arrival and range trip; It's home!!! IJ Cattleman RANGE REPORT W/ PICS

The Cattleman got here today. Steve had shipped it out Wednesday the 5th. The last two days were like when I was a kid looking at the presents under the tree waiting for Christmas Day. My anticipation meter was pegged to the max.

I was following the progress on the Fed Ex tracking page and when I knew it was on the delivery truck, I looked outside every time I heard a truck drive by. Finally at 12:10PM I heard the truck I wanted to hear. I met the Fed Ex driver at the door and signed his scanner.

After that I sat down and worked like crazy to unwrap this thing. Steve had it wrapped well in bubble wrap and then in newspaper.


I examined it from muzzle to grips and was quite impressed with Steve’s work. I really had no idea it would look as good as it does. He was able to work 99% of the bow out of the top strap. What little bow is left isn’t visible, and unless you know it’s there you won’t see it. The fit of the rest of the parts isn’t too bad either. Considering the cylinder frame and barrel is over 33 years old and the remainder of the parts is a later vintage. Even the replacement front sight blends in to the point I wasn’t sure it was a new sight.
I noticed a roughness I couldn’t find, but I wanted to get to the range and shoot it as quickly as possible so I didn’t bother looking for it.

My wife got home about then and said; “What’s it look like?” So I showed it to her. I think she’s impressed. She even asked me if it was a .357. Ha Ha, I said look at those holes, do they look like a .357? I think she was hoping it was so she could abscond with it.

As we were talking I got her to take a picture of me with it. Finally home in my hands. A project completed. Only took 33 years.


I got everything packed up and headed to the range. I took my two Ruger Blackhawks too. I got there around 2:30PM.
It didn’t take me long to realize I was so excited about getting the Cattleman back that I forgot to bring my ear muffs, safety glasses and diopter. What a dunce.
I borrowed a set of muffs from the range owner and bought a cheap set of glasses. I like them. They are totally clear, and almost weightless. It’s like wearing nothing.

Then I set up the first target and ran it out to 7 yards. I timidly loaded 5 rounds of R-P factory ammo into the Cattleman and fired off the first 5 shots. Then reloaded and fired another 5 rounds. I was utterly amazed at where the holes appeared in the target. The original front sight on the Cattleman revolvers was too short, so you ended up shooting way high. Steve told me the sight he put on for me was 1/8” taller. It seems that it is just about perfect. Here are the first 10 shots on target;


Here is IJ posing after his first 10 shots in over 30 years.


After that I shot several more groups, the next one another 10 shot group, was even better. I took a bit better aim.


I shot my Ruger .45 a bit, I had some odd ball .45 ACP stuff to shoot up, and then I went back to the Cattleman. I ran the target out to 50 feet and really tried to shoot a good group. Well, the front sight is a narrow tapered one, and the big hot pink bull looked like a fuzzy blob of cotton candy so I didn’t do quite as good as I thought I would. But you can see how the sights put the bullets just a hair under the point of aim.

Then I moved the target out to 25 yds and again tried to shoot a good group at the fuzzy pink blob. I didn’t do as bad as I thought I would, but it wasn’t great either.

You can see the elevation was right on. I just pulled them left. I do that sometimes.

I found a sillywet in my range bag and put it up. Ran it out to 7 yards and was getting ready to shoot it when another shooter came in. Since I was by myself, wifie was working, I asked him to take a picture or two of me shooting the Cattleman. He obliged and took this one;

Here’s the result of my fearful encounter with the dastardly red hearted blaggart sillywet;

Gotcha, HA! John Wayne eat your heart out.

While I was shooting the first box of factory ammo I slipped in a couple of my slightly warmer loads. My cast 268gr Keith SWC over 9.0grs of Unique. Not bad, not bad at all. I’ll have to give that load a real try out next range trip.

I fired off the rest of the box of factory ammo, and then started on a box of reloads. The reloads were loaded with Winchester brass colored primers. I had a half dozen misfires from that box. They would usually pop on the second try, but a couple of them just would not go off. I had to shoot them out of my Ruger.
While I was shooting the reloads I played around by shooting groups at different points on the target.

IF I did my part all the holes magically appeared close together. I was more and more impressed by the accuracy of this old revolver.

I fired a couple more groups from another box of older R-P factory ammo and a couple more misfires. Hmmmmmmm ??? I was getting a bit worried.
Well, I ran out of energy. I’d shot a bunch out of my Rugers as well as the Cattleman, so I was really ready to pack it up.

My range stall;


I had a great day. My Cattleman project has exceeded all expectations. Steve Young did a really good job getting this relic back up and running.
There are a couple things that will need to be addressed, but they are nits and nothing to get worried about.
The roughness I noticed when I first got it is the top of the main spring rubbing on the underside of the hammer. I’m not sure how to deal with it. And Steve thinned the mainspring a bunch to lighten the action. It might have been too much as I insist on my guns being able to pop every brand of primer.

Now the old shooter is back snug in its box. All warm, comfy and happy to be back in the world of the living.


This project has been a long time getting finished. I’m as happy with it as I would have been with a new gun.

Thanks Steve.


Joe



IJ Cattleman update:


The rubbing of the mainspring was because the spring had been arched to fit the donor guns hammer. When that hammer wouldn’t work Steve put in the old hammer but didn’t check the spring. I trimmed a tiny bit off the end of the spring and that cured that.
When I made the next trip to the range I dug through my ammo and found two boxes of .45 Colts loaded with CCI primers. IJ fired them all without a problem.



Epilog:

March 16th 2009.
As thrilled as I was about getting IJ back, a very long project finally completed, I found I didn’t like the brass grip frame trigger guard. Nothing new, I never have liked them on cartridge guns. Cap and ball revolvers are fine, but not cartridge revolvers.

BEFORE:


So I began looking for a steel grip frame / trigger guard assembly. I found a used one for sale on The Ruger Forum. I bought it, and then bought a new one piece walnut grip from VTI. After some fitting and a little touch up finishing of the new one piece grips IJ is now like I want, more Colt like in feel and appearance.

NOW:


IJ is neither a Colt, nor a high dollar USFA, it’s just a parts gun. But it’s a fun gun to shoot and represents my very first center fire revolver I bought many summers ago.

[Gun Smith]

JMILLER, what a wonderful story. I would be buried with that gun, if was me!

[kimwcook]

Professor, I'm with ya on the steel guard and backstrap. I've never cared for the brass either, especially on a cartridge piece. You IJ looks real nice with that steel on there.

[tman]

i have a colt new frontier that 1 use to hunt small game. i've handeled and shot many of the clones; they are all functioned and shot quite well. as frugal as i am, i 'll still take an authentic COLT any day over any of the clones. even if it means eating oddles of noodles for two weeks straight. i can't explain it, maybe it's one of my blind spots.

[J Miller]

i have a colt new frontier that 1 use to hunt small game. i've handeled and shot many of the clones; they are all functioned and shot quite well. as frugal as i am, i 'll still take an authentic COLT any day over any of the clones. even if it means eating oddles of noodles for two weeks straight. i can't explain it, maybe it's one of my blind spots.

I'll never get rid of IJ. However owning a real Colt SAA is my goal. I've wanted one for as long as I knew what a revolver was. You can blame that on John Wayne. First western I remember seeing was a J.W. movie on the big screen when I was a wee little lad.

JMILLER, what a wonderful story. I would be buried with that gun, if was me!

Yeah, I said that, but my wife said no. She said she'd keep IJ for me.
Uh huh, not sure I like that idea.

Professor, I'm with ya on the steel guard and backstrap. I've never cared for the brass either, especially on a cartridge piece. You IJ looks real nice with that steel on there.

kimwcook, I appreciate the compliments. Brass has it's place, just not on a SAA copy.

Joe

[Kansas Ed]

Nice story Joe.

As for the Colt SAA. I wouldn't recommend the new ones. Picked up my new one a couple of months ago.

Problems:
1) Action terrible. Very Gritty. Hammer sticks in the down position. Heat treat slag still on the mainspring. Cleaned up most of it myself, and it's much better, but the hammer still slightly sticks when you start to pull it back. Suspect the firing pin is off center slightly.

2) Bore (38-40 cal) is .401. All cylinder throats at .396-.397 Took it to my cousins machine shop and put it on his Sunnen hone. Took throats out to .401-.402.

3) Lousy finish. Sighting groove in top strap still has machine marks in it. Can see them through the nickle plating. This was not the case with my 3rd Gen SAA.

Called Colt left msg, and after several days they finally called back. Suggested I send the gun in and they would assess it. Wouldn't give cyl bore specs to me on the phone. Left it as, they would assess the gun and let me know if they thought it needed work. Didn't see the point in letting them have a second chance, nor did I trust their workmanship to fix it properly. Decided to not do business with them again, and deal with the issues myself. The hammer issue is the only thing left besides the finish issue, and until a wear pattern develops so I can see exactly where I need to adjust, I'll live with it.

Ed

[Streetstar]

Those 22 pockmarks on the top strap of that IJ give it a character that can't be re-created (well i guess a guy could if he wanted to-- but i doubt any of us on here would)

That is a very cool little revolver



to the OP: buy the best one you can afford, even if it means brown-baggin' it for a few weeks. For me, a new Colt would be the ultimate self indulgence, but if i wanted the ultimate shooter and was really going to use it , i would lean towards a new USFA .

That said -- Uberti and Beretta make some really cool guns that Colt doesn't -- i especially like the Thunderer, which is a 3.5" barrel model with birdshead grips -- Beretta also makes one and the case coloring on the Berettas is awesome. A thunderer will probably join my collection before long because they are so darn cool

I like adjustable sights though -- i really have my heart set on a 3rd generation New Frontier in either 45 colt or 44 Special.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

My perspective on the various SAA's is from a gunsmiths view. Not what they cost or how well they retain their value. Purely from the mechanical perspective.

If you want tuff out of the box, Ruger is the way to go. Even though the New Vaquero looks very much like a Colt SAA I don`t consider it to be a clone.

This is a stainless New Vaquero with colt grips


The ruger lock works were designed in the 1950's. It is nothing like the colt style lock basically unchanged since 1836.

Comparing Rugers to colts is like comparing model T`s to 60`s muscle cars.

As for the colt style SAA's I think the current USFA gun are the very best SAA available today. The current colts are good guns too, but a few years back I had issues with some of the 3rd gen colts so I'm a bit gun shy toward colts. If their QC stays at current levels I may change my mind.

You mentioned the Berretta Stamepedes and Taurus gaucho's. Those guns have had some problems mostly related to timing issue and some have had small parts related to the transfer bar failures. Both the Berretta and the taurus are based on the colt style lock work but have had the add-on tranfer parts added. The colt style lock work is a robust design but does not lend itself well to these small delicate add on parts. Over the long haul these small parts don't hold up.

Comparing the Berretta Stamepedes and Taurus gaucho's to the Ruger would be like adding a catalitic converter and a smog pump to that Model "T".

As for the Italian SAA's, I think the EMF GWII's (made for EMF by Pietta) are the very best SAA coming out of Italy now.



When EMF decided to import these, Will Hansen, EMF`s manager sent one to me for a look-see. He told me take it apart, shoot it, whatever I wanted to do. These guns are late 2nd gen configured with 3rd gen style bolts with the rounded finger tips. This helps prevent premature bolt cam wear. They even have firing pin bushings like the originals but EMF did have them change the weakest link in the colt action, the leaf type hand spring. They changed to the Ruger style coil spring and plunger. The only add-on safety is the two position cylinder base pin. this part is easy to change.
The current Uberti guns are good guns. Uberti no longer makes there old "D" cam guns. These early Uberti guns were prone to go out of time prematurely. Uberti has up dated to the Ruger type coil spring for the hand spring. They are much better but aren't as close to the originals as the GWII.

Note,
Joe's IJ got the newer bolt and hammer. His old parts were the dreaded Uberti "D" cam parts that were prone to premature wear.

[Ysabel Kid]

I have to admit I love my Colt 3rd Generation SAA, but I am hooked on my clones. I can get 2 or 3 or more guns for the price of a real Colt. I have had nothing but great luck with my Uberti guns - both revolvers and long guns (leveractions!!!). I have a bunch of them - cap and ball as well as cartridge.

NKJ is absolutely correct, as always. I don't think anyone beats a Ruger in pure toughness. I love my old model Blackhawks and Super Blackhawk. I just can't stand the new model action though. To me, and SAA needs to have "4 clicks" otherwise it just doesn't feel right. That is my only complaint about the Pietta-made Heritage Rough Rider I got - 3 clicks. Still, I couldn't resist the price.

Joe wrote a small novel! A story with a happy ending too!!!

Kim - who made those grips? That is exactly the color - pure white - I've been looking for!

[kimwcook]

I made'em, or I carved everything away from ivory blanks that wasn't a grip. An elephant actually made'em.

[J Miller]

kimwcook,

I think I'll let you make my next set of grips. Those are sweet!


NKJ,

Not meaning to hijack this thread too far, but since you brought up the subject, could you post a comparison picture of a "D" cam hammer and the old style bolt, and the newer hammer with the rounded finger tip bolt for those of us who have no idea what the difference is?

Joe

[Ysabel Kid]

Kim -

You do excellent work. I didn't realize real ivory was that white!

[Lefty Dude]

If you want class & vintage, buy genuine Colts. If your requirement is a work horse piece that will stand up to almost any load it is given to digest. There is only one, a Ruger.

I have both, for CAS/SASS I use and shoot a pair of 44 Colt SAA 4 3/4" from the Colt.. custom shop.

For other 44 requirements I have a Ruger Super BH made in 1973, with it's 7 1/2" barrel this piece is very accurate.

I also have a pair of Uberti 44-40 Bisleys, Colt clones. Since I got the real Colts they reside in the Gun Safe. There is no comparison between a Colt and a Clone of any color or Flavor.

"Colts Rule"

[Ysabel Kid]

"Colts Rule"

Agreed, but unless you are made of money, shooting original Walker Dragoons, Open Tops 1872's, and some others just isn't in the cards...

[azmark]

You guys love your SAAs and clones. Aside from the emotion these guns obviously evoke, what I'm seeing from a practical standpoint is that it's commonly agreed that USFA makes the best quality clones, followed by Ubertis imported by Cimarron and EMF. I'm hearing that the Vaquero is serviceable and strong. Aside from preferences in action design, as a practical shooter, from an accuracy and reliability standpoint do any of these have a real advantage?

I wonder about the USFA Rodeo; is the finish low-quality or just not real pretty?

[kimwcook]

USFA says their Rodeo's are every bit the same quality as their high end models. It's just the finish that's different. The one I handled looked and felt like a phosphate finish. I didn't have the oppurtunity to shoot it. Someone on the singleactions forum took a Rodeo and used lapping compound or something like that and rubbed the phosphate finish off and it looked every bit a 100 year old gun. Looked really neat to me anyway.

[Rexster]

Colt makes a third-rate clone of the USFA.

Sorry, just had to throw that in there!

I am lucky, in that I live near a large dealer in collectible firearms, and can closely examine the pre-owned guns, Colt, USFA, or Italian, before purchase, and also live near both Alan Harton and NKJ, who can make right that which is not right, with no shipping involved. Life is good.

Just to be clear, I do love Colts, and the Colt heritage.

I own a USPFA built in the USA with Uberti parts. (USPFA changed to USFA.) I own five USFAs, some of which presumably have some imported parts, while the most recent was made in the all-USA era. I own an NRA Commemorative SAA, late Second Generation, which is a shooter. I own a Third Generation Colt Sheriff's Model; this one and the preceding Colt were purchased pre-owned, and are quite good. I did buy one 3rd-gen Colt new, still oily in the bag and box, which was a HUGE disappointment, internally and externally. No more "unturned" Colts for me!

[kimwcook]

and also live near both Alan Harton and NKJ, who can make right that which is not right, with no shipping involved. Life is good.

You're a very lucky man.

[Rexster]

and also live near both Alan Harton and NKJ, who can make right that which is not right, with no shipping involved. Life is good.

You're a very lucky man.

Very true. Now, if I would just stop buying guns, I could afford the custom work.

FWIW, I did sell off the disappointing 3rd-Gen Colt. Its front sight was too short, it seemed to have gravel in the action, and the hammer would not fall smoothly. I traded it to a dealer who had a buyer in mind, with full disclosure of its faults. Looking back, I should have kept it, and had Mr. Harton or Mr. NKJ work it over, as it stands as the only SA sixgun that has left my hands. Therefore, I have no personal experience with Colt's customer service.

My other Colts, and USFA and Ruger sixguns, have not required customer service. One of the early USFAs could use a trigger job.

[Old Savage]

My Pietta 1860 Army is excellent.

[SAAJim]

USFA says their Rodeo's are every bit the same quality as their high end models. It's just the finish that's different. The one I handled looked and felt like a phosphate finish. I didn't have the oppurtunity to shoot it. Someone on the singleactions forum took a Rodeo and used lapping compound or something like that and rubbed the phosphate finish off and it looked every bit a 100 year old gun. Looked really neat to me anyway.

Here are a couple of images of one of my Rodeos after a couple of "treatments" with a de-rusting fluid (called Right Stuff Metal Conditioner) I bought at Advance Auto Parts. It took off the blue and gave the gun a dark aged mottled gray color and also gives rust protection. I used cotton swabs to apply the fluid and rubbed some initially to remove the bluing, then let fluid set on the gun for about 5 minutes and then wiped with a dry cloth. I took the gun apart to do the job so the fluid didn't get into spaces where I couldn't wipe it off. The longer it sets or the more treatments, the darker the gray. The gun is only a few years old but looks like it's "been there & done that". I have premium finished USFA guns and the Rodeo other than the finish is every bit their equal.

BTW, azmark, the EMF Great Western II guns are made by Pietta, not Uberti.

Jim

[J Miller]

Jim,

That's a pretty good aging job. I like it. Who made the grips?

Joe

[SAAJim]

Jim,

That's a pretty good aging job. I like it. Who made the grips?

Joe

Joe,
Believe it or not, I bought those grips as a kit on eBay for about $18 and fitted them myself. The scanned image of the Rodeo makes them look more yellow than they are. They look more a creamy off white. They're certainly not premium grips but they feel pretty decent and I couldn't beat the price. The image below is of a recently purchased USFA SAA with optional CCH hammer; bought it from Gary Granger of USFA. I bought a walnut grip kit from Collins Craft grips - http://www.collinscraftgrips.com/kits.php - they turned out pretty nice. In case you didn't notice, I really like USFA guns. The new Colts are much better in quality than the earlier 3rd Gen Colts but Colt still can't seem to get the .45 Colt cylinder throats the proper size which is a pretty glaring problem for the price they're charging.

Jim

[kimwcook]

Both of those are nice looking pieces.

[J Miller]

Both of those are nice looking pieces.

Boy howdy that's an understatement.

Jim, do you remember the seller for the creamy off white grips? I've been tempted to do a set similar to that for my IJ, but I'd probably screw them up so I don't want to spend a lot of money.

Working with wood is not one of my strong points.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

In the end, ya either accept the basic limitations and potential for it to leave ya flat of a SAA design, or ya swallow hard, (some would say give up the eyes of a child) and get ya a Ruger. I personally like the .44 sized vaquero, but there is a lot to recommend the smaller New Vaquero. A gun is a tool, and all the fancy and "feel" in the world doesn't help ya when a spring breaks and ya got an expensive poor excuse for a hammer. Ruger is an AMERICAN MADE tool that is tough and not half bad looking. Take yer ruger out on the trail, shoot heck out of it, and in the event it ever does need servicing, send it to Ruger and they will make it like new at ZERO cost (unless ya shoot it to death with another gun, of course).

[J Miller]

The strange thing is, I've owned several Ruger single action revolvers, center and rim fire. Now that I exist in IL I don't shoot much any more at all.
But when I was in AZ I shot them a lot. I never had one break.

Now, I've also had three Italian center fire single actions, and two Colt rim fire single actions and I've shot them a bunch.

Never had a Ruger break.

Never had a flat spring break in any of the others either.

I dare say that unless it's the cam side bolt finger that breaks, a person can put his old style SA back in action in a short period of time. That is assuming he has some spare parts and screwdriver.

With a Ruger when they break, it's generally beyond being fixed in the field.

Just my opinions based on living with these things for many years.

Joe

[SAAJim]

Both of those are nice looking pieces.

Boy howdy that's an understatement.

Jim, do you remember the seller for the creamy off white grips? I've been tempted to do a set similar to that for my IJ, but I'd probably screw them up so I don't want to spend a lot of money.

Working with wood is not one of my strong points.

Joe

Joe,
Those grips were purchased some years ago and the link I have for that eBay seller goes to an eBay page that says no such eBay Store, so the guy is no longer in business. Do an eBay search for SAA grips and see what they have. I saw one guy there selling Colt 2nd Gen SAA grips for $29.99 + $4 shipping. You'd have to email him and see if they would fit your IJ.

Here's some links you might explore:

http://www.cowboyandcowgirl.com/html/new_grips.html
http://www.gripmaker.com/
http://www.westernandwildlifewonders.co ... hp?cPath=1 - $40 for grips. You send in a tracing of your grip frame and they make the grips to fit.

Jim

[SAAJim]

In the end, ya either accept the basic limitations and potential for it to leave ya flat of a SAA design, or ya swallow hard, (some would say give up the eyes of a child) and get ya a Ruger. I personally like the .44 sized vaquero, but there is a lot to recommend the smaller New Vaquero. A gun is a tool, and all the fancy and "feel" in the world doesn't help ya when a spring breaks and ya got an expensive poor excuse for a hammer. Ruger is an AMERICAN MADE tool that is tough and not half bad looking. Take yer ruger out on the trail, shoot heck out of it, and in the event it ever does need servicing, send it to Ruger and they will make it like new at ZERO cost (unless ya shoot it to death with another gun, of course).

AJ,
I wouldn't argue with you for a minute about the Rugers but those of us who love the SAA, there are a number of things that can done to the venerable old design that dramatically increases its reliablilty. The frame can drilled to use a Ruger plunger/spring to replace the flat hand spring, Wolfe or Lee's main springs are lighter than stock springs and I've never had a Wolfe spring fail in my SAAs, replacing the flat trigger/bolt spring with a wire spring also greatly increases reliability. I've done these mods to all my USFA guns as well as drilling/tapping the inside of the trigger guard to fit an allen set screw which stops the hammer dead in its tracks just after it reaches full cock so the hand is not putting pressure on the bolt/cylinder notches after the gun reaches full cock. With all that said, if I were in the market for another USFA gun, I would buy it from Long Hunter as he does all that (except the hammer stop) as well as opening the rear sight notch & cutting forcing cone to 11 degrees, all before you ever get the gun and for not much more than you can buy one stock. Will they ever equal a Ruger for toughness/reliability? No. Will they come pretty darn close, yes. I love the old SAA; too many cowboy movies when I was a kid, I guess. The Rugers, esp the new Vaquero, look pretty close to SAA but in feel and action, they're not even close.

Two links of interest:
http://www.longhunt.com/usfa/index.htm
http://www.longhunt.com/blog/?p=42

Jim

[redlevel42]

I have never owned a SAA. I used to lust after one, but I just couldn't afford it. Now, I could probably afford one, but I just really don't want one. I bought a three-screw 7.5 inch Blackhawk in 1973 when they introduced the .45 Colt. I bought a Vaquero in .45 Colt about 12-15 years ago. The Blackhawk is pretty slick. I did a little stoning, but very little. Mostly, I just shot it and dry fired a lot. The Vaquero was never as slick as the Blackhawk, but is more than acceptable. Besides being a much more than adequate handgun, if you shot it dry in a self-defense situation, you would still be well armed, because it would make a heck of a club.

My only experience with a Colt clone was a Uberti Cattleman, a Sheriff's Model that I traded a perfectly good S&W Model 24 for about 10-12 years ago. It might have just been a lemon, but that particular one was junk. Worst gun trade I ever made. From now on, I'll stick with Ruger Single Actions and Smith & Wesson Double Actions. Except, of course, for my nickeled early 70s vintage Python.

Three screw Blackhawk from 1973. I think I gave my local dealer $100 for the gun and a box of shells. It got me started hunting with a handgun and reloading.

[SAAJim]

A beautiful old 3 screw blackhawk; no doubt about it. If I were to buy a Ruger, that is the very gun, I would be looking for.

Jim

I have never owned a SAA. I used to lust after one, but I just couldn't afford it. Now, I could probably afford one, but I just really don't want one. I bought a three-screw 7.5 inch Blackhawk in 1973 when they introduced the .45 Colt. I bought a Vaquero in .45 Colt about 12-15 years ago. The Blackhawk is pretty slick. I did a little stoning, but very little. Mostly, I just shot it and dry fired a lot. The Vaquero was never as slick as the Blackhawk, but is more than acceptable. Besides being a much more than adequate handgun, if you shot it dry in a self-defense situation, you would still be well armed, because it would make a heck of a club.

My only experience with a Colt clone was a Uberti Cattleman, a Sheriff's Model that I traded a perfectly good S&W Model 24 for about 10-12 years ago. It might have just been a lemon, but that particular one was junk. Worst gun trade I ever made. From now on, I'll stick with Ruger Single Actions and Smith & Wesson Double Actions. Except, of course, for my nickeled early 70s vintage Python.

Three screw Blackhawk from 1973. I think I gave my local dealer $100 for the gun and a box of shells. It got me started hunting with a handgun and reloading.

[azmark]

Lord, what have I gotten myself into? I thought this might be simple... Here's what I'm seeing. Everybody loves their single actions. Most are good quality guns. Something I've noticed is that it seems that no matter what I choose, I'm going to have to do something to make it shoot to point of aim. I mean, besides choosing the right load. Is that about right? I would have expected the New Vaquero, at least, to come out of the box 'shooting straight'.

It looks like my best bet to get one of these that I might not have to 'tweak' would be the USFA Rodeo. Too bad the finish is so-so.

Am I being unnecessarily negative here? Maybe I'm just ignorant of this breed of gun, which I can accept.

[J Miller]

I got one of them 7.5" barreled OM BHs. Must have been a Monday or Friday gun. It's never broken but when I got it the front sight was tilted and WAY too short. Got that fixed and have been shooting and customizing it till I finally fixed it enough to suit me.

CLC yellowed AM Holly grips 12-23-06a_cropped.JPG

Joe

[SAAJim]

azmark,
My single actions sometimes shoot just a little left but I have discovered that the left shooter is most often the shooter, not the gun. I have watched my sights during dry fire and I often see the front sight move to the left as I'm squeezing the trigger. If a shooter does not pull the trigger straight back, the angled pull will move the shot left; probably the opposite for a left handed shooter. When I do my part, all my USFA guns shoot straight. Depending on the load, they may shoot a little low. Single actions often have tall front sights so you can file them down to raise impact point. If you want a Rodeo, I'd strongly suggest buying it from Long Hunter (link in one of my posts above). While I haven't purchased one of his guns, his reputation on the SASS Wire is the best. As I mentioned, that's where I would buy one.

Jim

Lord, what have I gotten myself into? I thought this might be simple... Here's what I'm seeing. Everybody loves their single actions. Most are good quality guns. Something I've noticed is that it seems that no matter what I choose, I'm going to have to do something to make it shoot to point of aim. I mean, besides choosing the right load. Is that about right? I would have expected the New Vaquero, at least, to come out of the box 'shooting straight'.

It looks like my best bet to get one of these that I might not have to 'tweak' would be the USFA Rodeo. Too bad the finish is so-so.

Am I being unnecessarily negative here? Maybe I'm just ignorant of this breed of gun, which I can accept.

[J Miller]

Lord, what have I gotten myself into? I thought this might be simple... Here's what I'm seeing. Everybody loves their single actions. Most are good quality guns. Something I've noticed is that it seems that no matter what I choose, I'm going to have to do something to make it shoot to point of aim. I mean, besides choosing the right load. Is that about right? I would have expected the New Vaquero, at least, to come out of the box 'shooting straight'.

It looks like my best bet to get one of these that I might not have to 'tweak' would be the USFA Rodeo. Too bad the finish is so-so.

Am I being unnecessarily negative here? Maybe I'm just ignorant of this breed of gun, which I can accept.

Mark,

Single action revolvers are no different sight wise than a S&W Mdl 10.
Each gun is generally sighted in for the most traditional factory produced SAAMI spec load of that caliber. Emphasis on generally.

For instance the Mdl 10 I mentioned would be generally sighted in for the 158gr standard pressure load.

The .45 Colt single action revolver would be generally sighted in for the 250-255gr standard factory load as produced by Remington and Winchester. None of the other brands of ammo can be said to be the standard .45 Colt round.
Now,having said that, every Uberti made IJ imported Cattleman I've owned ( 3 ) had a too short front sight.
My S&W 25-5 front sight was too short.
My OM Ruger I posted the pic of above had a short front sight.
All of them needed and got taller front sights.

So, is this a problem with .45 Colt guns in general, or me?

Over on the The Ruger Forum there are many many posters who've had taller front sights installed on their big bore Ruger SAs. And many more who've asked questions about having it done.
So I'm leaning towards the factories not paying attention to details on the height of the front sights.

In later years Uberti has installed taller front sights on their single actions, and Ruger has done the same thing. So at least they eventually have paid attention to the shooters.

As for windage, I will say without any hesitation that 75% of the time it's shooter error. Almost without exception when a single action pulls left or right consistently it's the shooter using too much finger on the trigger and pushing the gun to the side.
Now then, did J Miller learn this by reading on the internet, no. I learned it by shooting my guns and being driven NUTS because when I shot from the bench with the rear sight centered the gun shot centered.
But when I stood up on my hind feet and shot off hand I'd pull the groups left all day long.
Since I knew it was not the gun I refused to adjust the rear sight to compensate for my mistakes. I had to figure out just what the heck I was doing wrong. Eventually I figured out that I was using my trigger finger as an extra support for the gun, and sticking my finger in all the way to the joint on the trigger. Pushing the gun to the left.
When I shoot with just the pad of the end of my finger on the trigger it shoots straight.

Don't over analyze problems you "might" have. And don't create problems for yourself. If you want to buy a single action do so. They are beautiful guns. They do require a learning curve that's different from double action revolvers, but that's just the way of it.

Joe

[azmark]

Wow, good answers, guys. Come to think of it, I used to have a Single Six that always shot left (I'm right-handed). I suppose I could use this as an excuse for shooting more

[adirondakjack]

Both of my Ruger Vaqueros shoot to the same POA, and I've shot one-hole groups (standing, two hands, no rest) on more than one occassion with them. They withstand the rigors of CAS and the carry in ice and snow (not to mention teaching an actor to fan) with no ill effects.

The BH of course has adjustable sights. I did shoot it until it was battered out of time, but that was back when a plinking session was a 3lb coffee can of 250s over 10gr. of Unique. After five years of that kind of use (not to mention a thousand or more 250 JHPs over 21.5 of H110) I sent er back home to New Hamster, and in two weeks got er back all fixed, as good if not better than new, with a new bolt, new hand, and a recut forcing cone/barrel set back one turn. (no charge of course) You simply CAN'T do that with a colt or clone. They won't stand it.

[kimwcook]

Adirondakjack, I'm not trying to flame anyone here, but you're talking apples and oranges. You're BH didn't take it either, ie.. sending it back to Ruger and getting it rebuilt.

Colt SAA's and their clones weren't built with the same size frame as a Vaquero, BH, or SBH and therefore aren't designed to take the pressures. Ruger's New Vaquero can't take it either, they're designed on the SAA size, again because there's not enough meat in the frame. SAA's were designed in the late 1800's and do just fine for their intended purpose. They weren't designed to race, but can be made to do so. What's Evil Roy pack, Colt SAA clones. He seems to do fine. Apples and oranges.

If one is looking for a piece that'll do some hotrodding, get a Ruger big frame revolver. If one is looking for an easy packing, piece of history, get a SAA or clone. Get the right tool for the job.

[adirondakjack]

Adirondakjack, I'm not trying to flame anyone here, but you're talking apples and oranges. You're BH didn't take it either, ie.. sending it back to Ruger and getting it rebuilt.

Colt SAA's and their clones weren't built with the same size frame as a Vaquero, BH, or SBH and therefore aren't designed to take the pressures. Ruger's New Vaquero can't take it either, they're designed on the SAA size, again because there's not enough meat in the frame. SAA's were designed in the late 1800's and do just fine for their intended purpose. They weren't designed to race, but can be made to do so. What's Evil Roy pack, Colt SAA clones. He seems to do fine. Apples and oranges.

If one is looking for a piece that'll do some hotrodding, get a Ruger big frame revolver. If one is looking for an easy packing, piece of history, get a SAA or clone. Get the right tool for the job.

I dunno,

It seems to me a gun that took several thousand rounds of HOT handloads and the "beating" meant recutting a forcing cone and replacing two small parts that were out of spec. to put er back to 1.5": groups at 25 yards TOOK IT just fine. A model 29 smith in .45 Colt woulda been in the junk box, and a SAA woulda likely cracked to pieces long ago. The vaquero is essentially the same gun, and I've run everything from 120 grainers at 600 fps to 318 grainers at 1300 fps through this one (LOTS OF THEM).



What WAS bad on it was the CCB finish that developed leprosy after repeated shooting with BP and maybe inadequate cleaning in the field.

I stripped and plum browned it 5 years ago. It's held up very well since.