30WCF - What's so great about it?

[86er]

Let's hear both sides of this one. Up to now there has been very little bashing on this forum. Does that mean everyone here thinks it's great? Well maybe it is. Pros and cons please.

Great: tons of affordable, servicable and shootable rifles available that can be fed inexpensive ammo. Opposite view: The 303 British can be had in a $100 rifle and offers more power, better trajectory and just as short/light/compact rifle.

Not so great (NSG): optimistic 200 yd trajectory. Opposite: most WTD deer are shot within 80 yds in the US.

Bring it on .....

[cshold]

It Works

[CowboyTutt]

I appreciate the cartridge's significance in history, but I've never been interested in owning one. I suppose if your very recoil sensitive that could be another advantage to the 30WCF.
-Tutt

[BlueStateSaint]

In the Adirondacks, ammo is available almost everywhere. Not so with the .303.

[20cows]

The 30WCF is kinda like the family sedan. It is a good basic cartridge, capable of doing the job, but not a hotrod.

Lotsa' folks like hotrods, but drive the sedan most of the time.

[Noah Zark]

" . . . The 303 British can be had in a $100 rifle . . . "

Not anymore.

You obviously haven't been to a gun shop or gun show in PA since Obama got elected. I went to the show in Centre Hall, PA yesterday and found two sporterized Enfields for $285 and $375 respectively. A guy was walking a No1 MkIII in 303 and a Ishapore 2A1 in 308 asking $175 each. A "dealer" apparently bought them because the same guns with the same cable ties on them were on that dealer's tables for $250 for the 303 and $295 for the 308.


That said, nearly every other home in PA has a Winchester 1894 growing dust, and can be taken hunting simply for the asking because the current must-have, sure-bet, 4-20X 50mm scoped fad deer-killer rifles have the words "Short Magnum" in their names. Hunters use these Short Magnums at the same range to target and in the same woods that I hunted using my late father's open-sighted 94 in 30 WCF to good effect in the early and mid-1960s.

As casastahle succinctly put it, "It works."

Noah

[meanc]

...because the 30-30 comes in those neat little Marlins and Winchesters, especially those Trappers.

As far as ballistics go... I'm absolutely certain of the accuracy and killing power of the 30-30 on deer up to and past 200yds.

If I needed something along the lines of 303 for hunting I'd just get a 30-06 which has a little better ballistics and a larger supply of hunting ammo at almost any place that sells guns.

[86er]

Aw come on - my 45 Colt properly loaded comes in the same rifles and has as much or more power than 30-30 in a smaller, neater cartridge!

[Nath]

For how much powder it use's it's quite efficient.
Also it don't try to turn it's bullets inside out!

Nath.

[Lefty Dude]

When the 30WCF first arrived on the scene, I am sure it was looked upon as some sort of toad round with smokless powder. It soon became the caliber of the common Man.

Every small variety store in America that sell some Amunition has a box of 30-30's on the shelf.

[Old Savage]

Good short/medium range deer cartridge in nice handy and nostalgic rifles.

Now the fact that it can be stretched beyond that successfully by folks who know what they are doing and are good at it adds some pizzaz for them.

[COSteve]

I appreciate the cartridge's significance in history, but I've never been interested in owning one. I suppose if your very recoil sensitive that could be another advantage to the 30WCF.
-Tutt

The fact is that the 'thurty-thurty' has a relatively high recoil for it's performance. Add to that the fact that it's usually fired from a rifle with a steel buttplate and it's understandable that many will opt for a higher performance caliber, many times with less recoil.

Not convinced? Check out this Rifle Recoil Table and note that a 243 Winchester has less recoil and a 6.5x55 Swede has the same recoil while both calibers have much better trajectories and performance than a 30-30.

[CowboyTutt]

You go Steve!

-Tutt

[J Miller]

So far I've seen nothing posted to counter the fact that the 30-30 in the handy lever action rifle has been a total success for a 114 years. All the so called negatives have so far been nit pickings and inconsequential.

Joe

[Streetstar]

I guess for me its a family thing --- deer camps in SE Oklahoma/SW Arkansas with dad and his friends. Not all that many years ago, but then, a hunter was considered a rank amateur and was the brunt of jokes if he showed up in the Ozark deer woods with ........ say a 270 and a scope. Most 30-06's i ever saw were Remingtons little autoloader (740 or 742 -- i dont know - something like that)--- most people seemed to accept the 30-30 as a specialized hunting tool perfect for that little corner of the world (along with the light, handy carbine that usually chambered it, be it Marlin or Winchester)

I dont hunt there very much anymore (some bow seasons excepted) --- but if i did-- the 30-30 would be all i would ever need

[Marc]

It's an anemic little cartridge that isn't suited to the country I hunt. My levergun hunting has been done with a 356 Winchester which carries a lot more down range oomph! However I do like the 30-30 and own several that I use for levergun silhouette and fun shooting.

[Barcelona Rick]

My dad was a rifleman at heart. He owned a Brit .303, a Remington 725 in .280 and a '94 in .30WCF.....he loved the .280 for open country....the .303 was his first hunting rifle bought for a few bucks after WWII with a truck load of ammo but in 1949 along came the Winchester.....his woods and self defense weapon. Now he killed more deer with that .303 than the other 2 combined but he always said 30-30 ammo is dirt cheap and everyone carries at least some. His advice to me was hunt with a 30-30 or a 30-06 because of the ammo.......he would never buy more than a box at a time (Scotsman) and that usually lasted a good while. My boy has the .280, I have the 30WCF and the Brit went to an uncle who traded it for some goats......30 WCF works fine and is economical to feed.....

jumbeaux

[Old Savage]

Well 86er - you must have sensed it was a slow day for the boys.

There are levels of power that you are aware of and that creates lines of effectiveness. Take a look at my post on Power and Shock.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=20828

[JerryB]

I reckon that my 1939 94 30wcf killed my second deer last fall just as dead
DRT, as any of the super guns of this new modern world. It just seems to work well for my needs.

[Chuck 100 yd]

30-30`s are a poor excuse for a deer rifle and they should not be used on any animal larger than a possum
(with out the 'o') .
That`s why I am trying to buy all of them up I can. I want to get them out of the hands of unknowing hunters as we all know that you need a "Magnum" for shootin deers.

[J Miller]

30-30`s are a poor excuse for a deer rifle and they should not be used on any animal larger than a possum
(with out the 'o') .
That`s why I am trying to buy all of them up I can. I want to get them out of the hands of unknowing hunters as we all know that you need a "Magnum" for shootin deers.

Yeah right, you can't have mine
Not only that I need another one to replace the inefficient 30-06 loud-n-boomer that I'll never use. Way to much power and recoil. A normal person can't handle that much abuse to their body without a trip to the chiropractor.

Joe

[AJMD429]

After 45 years of owning guns, I bought my FIRST .30-30 this year. I was doing FINE without it.

But somehow, now, I finally feel "complete"... .

Besides, I think it is against the LAW to live in the Midwest and not own one... .

[86er]

"More deer are shot and wounded [and not recovered] with the 30-30 each year than all other cartridges combined". - Craig Boddington

"The 30-30 is still one of the most popular deer rifles. With all the new cartridges available, a proportionate share of whitetail deer fall to the 30-30, as has been the case since its introduction" - Craig Boddington

Well - if more shots are fired with the 30-30 at deer, then proportionately the # of "wounded deer" would naturally increase too.

"So many 30-30's are dusted off for deer season each year it is ritualistic" - Layne Simpson

Well if inexperienced, out of practice, once a year shooters drag a ton of 30-30's into the woods, many with open sights that are misused with trajectories that are misunderstood, it contributes to the other statements above.

Ah- but if it were a scope sighted 308 that was dusted off the sighting, trajectory and power would be more than adequate to provide lethal shots even if taken by marginal marksman, thereby increasing the # of deer killed and recovered.

Right?

[Old Savage]

Of Course.

[cshold]

Well 86er - you must have sensed it was a slow day for the boys.

There are levels of power that you are aware of and that creates lines of effectiveness. Take a look at my post on Power and Shock.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=20828

And I thought I took care of this with the Winchester poster pic.

[brucew44guns]

For quite a few years, I was of the notion that it had to be a .348, or maybe a 45-70, or just forget about hunting. A 30-30?, you gotta be kidding me using that small cartridge. But I finally acquired a like new 336-A 20 years ago, for 125 bucks at a shop in Oregon. I killed quite a few deer with that rifle, black-tails, and they all dropped like a rock. I have several 30-30's now, and believe in them, believe in my new .358 too!!

[Old Savage]

We didn't know about the poster when we shot the can.

[BigSky56]

Ive given up on gun writers that tell me I need the newest wizbang mag to kill a deer. Besides a 94 carries nice on a horse and kills elk just fine. danny

[Hobie]

What's so great about the .30 WCF? That it is right dead smack in the middle of everything. Neither too much nor too little. There are lots of uses to which, for the moment, we don't put it but it will do such as for moose and elk. It can be loaded down without much problem. It is available everywhere, even now. It can be reloaded using cheap bullets and a relatively light charge (compared to .308 Win and bigger cartridges) and still function just as intended.

You can't separate the cartridges from the guns in which it is chambered though. Most are light, handy, sufficiently accurate and durable and because of the cartridge not unpleasant to shoot.

What's so great about the .30 WCF? That there's nothing so bad about it...

[AJMD429]

What's so great about the .30 WCF? That there's nothing so bad about it...

That says alot - I guess that is the best answer so far...!

[L_Kilkenny]

Heck, I can't explain it. My 30/30 has enough recoil to make it uncomfortable for plinkin with factory loads. More than a 7mm-08, less than 30-06 IMO. As for cost of the gun, I could of gone out and bought a "well used" .270 for $200-$250. They are everywhere at the gun shows and the .270 would of had better balistics and range.

But the comparison to the .303 is pretty "off" IMO. Like already stated, .303 ammo is not nearly as available and I have never seen an Enfield that was as light and handy as a Win 94. For a better comparison someone sould pick about any deer capable sporting rifle out there. Mini-30's, common bolt guns, etc etc. Heck even compare it to the Savage 99 or the BLR. But not the .303?

In defense of the 30/30......It just palin works. It has style. It has history. And in it's most common action, the lever gun, it's just plain ol' fun! What's not to like about that?

LK

[rafter-7]

Everybody and thier grandmother has one.... It is the most over chambered round to date... With less than average results

In 30 years of shooting and collecting I have NEVER or will ever have a 30 caliber ANYTHING!!!!


Hows that was I to blunt/

OOOHH..... I sure do feel better now that I got that off my chest!

^
7

If you think I am kidding just ask Arjunky I HATE 30 CALIBER anything

[L_Kilkenny]

If you think I am kidding just ask Arjunky I HATE 30 CALIBER anything

Kinda like me and anything .44!

LK

[J Miller]

Several folks have said the 30-30 has too much recoil. BAH!!!!

What recoil? Been shooting Win 94s for over 40 years. Ain't no recoil to notice with factory level ammo. My 5.5" wife shoots them and don't whine about the recoil. My stepson when he was 10 years old didn't like my Win 94s in 30-30 because they DIDN'T have recoil. All he wanted to shoot was my Enfield 303.

Saying the 30-30 in a lever gun has too much recoil is like saying a mo-ped goes too fast.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Might depend on how they fit you.

[L_Kilkenny]

Several folks have said the 30-30 has too much recoil. BAH!!!!

What recoil? Been shooting Win 94s for over 40 years. Ain't no recoil to notice with factory level ammo. My 5.5" wife shoots them and don't whine about the recoil. My stepson when he was 10 years old didn't like my Win 94s in 30-30 because they DIDN'T have recoil. All he wanted to shoot was my Enfield 303.

Saying the 30-30 in a lever gun has too much recoil is like saying a mo-ped goes too fast.

Joe

Recoil is a funny thing. There's lots of people who think that a revolver in .357 has a lot of recoil. Heck I run hot 180gr loads in mine and it still seems like a ***** cat. With 125's I think it has less recoil than the Witness-P .45ACP I used to have. On the other hand, my 30/30 kicks more than I like for plinkin and benchwork. Hunting I never even notice recoil in anything including my lightweight 12ga. slugguns. Is the 30/30's recoil bad? Not really. But I definetly prefer shooting my 110-125gr, 2000fps reloads better.

LK

[Sixgun]

Its got to do with physics. The velocity of the 30-30 combined with the sectional density of the 170 gr. 30 caliber bullet makes it a cartridge that will plow through deer and even elk and bear at reasonable ranges. The reason it has lasted is the same reason the 30-40 Krag with its 220 grain bullet has lasted----------it works most every time. A personal friend of mine has killed 28 elk with a Model 64 Winchester. His father killed many more with the same rifle since he bought it new in 1938.

Talk to any seasoned guide. They will be happier if a guy shows up in camp with a 30-40 Krag than a 300 thumper-ma-jig.

I never did like Craig Boddington (or however you spell his name) Yea, he probably forgot more than I will ever know, but his attitude that "he is the worlds most knowledgable shooter" turns me off. Plus, he just looks like a worm. Elmer Keith would have given Craig the cold shoulder.

Sure, more deer are wounded with the 30-30 and left to die because many novice hunters use a 30-30 and are not accomplished rifleman. Here in Pennsylvania, every third rifle in the woods is a 30-30, usually wielded by a youngster. Its nothing to hear 7 quick shots and see the deer still running. Put that same gun in the right hands and it will take down almost anything. Can't say the same for the 243 and other so called hot shot calibers.-----------------------Sixgun

[Gun Smith]

Looking at the popularity of the original 1894 30/30, it may come from this. It was a step up in power to the M.1892 and one of the first rifles chambered (25-35) for smokless powder. Since it had more power than the M.92, but was similar in function it became the logical next gun for levergun hunters looking for a new rifle at that time. You can argue pros and cons forever, but with over 5,000,000 sold, something was right.

[TedH]

The way a gun fits obviously has a lot to do with what ya feel when you light one off. I have a buddy that is 6'2", 230 lbs, and he finds my Rem 700 270 Win much more uncomfortable to shoot than his Howa 300 Win Mag.

[Old Savage]

I think they actually went over 7,000,000 to increase your point. It is a neat rifle, really cool as is the 92 and many of us grew up watching the cowboy and previous groups always associated them and in the east and northeast distances are usually short and often in the woods. That rifle is perfect for that.

[meanc]

Aw come on - my 45 Colt properly loaded comes in the same rifles and has as much or more power than 30-30 in a smaller, neater cartridge!

Agree totally. That's why I have them in that caliber, too. Don't forget the 44mag or 357mag either...but, the .303 doesn't (except the 1895, which is out of most hunters price range anyway).

Another point is that 303 factory offered hunting ammo availability just can't match the 30-30s.

If I had to reload for it, I might as well go to 30-30AI for almost the exact same ballistics and keep using my handy little 94s

[rjohns94]

I have only two animals to base my opinion on. the ram I shot in Hondo with "ugly Duck" I shot with 170 grain power points. the distance was under 30 yards. The shot was behind the shoulder and the ram ran off and it took half the crew Hours to locate. Later that day I shot a blackbuck with 150 grainers at 100 yards with much different results. I'm really not impressed at the current time. I could take it or leave it.

[El Chivo]

well, I've thought about getting a 270 bolt gun and probably should, but the thought of carrying that heavy thing makes me put it off.

the 336 is handier. I've had two opportunities at legal deer (only took one) and both were within 75 yards. Easy for that gun. I've also sighted on non-shootable deer from even closer. Out of about a dozen situations, only one was over 100 yards. Around here the brush is pretty tall and dense. I sometimes see birds on the next mountain over, they are 300+ yards away, but I never see deer that far out. They're in there but the brush is over their head and they're almost impossible to see unless they're on the move. Lately I've been hearing them before seeing them.

[w30wcf]

Before magnumitis.........
From the WInchester 1897 catalog:
Teddy Roosevelt sure liked it and who woud argue with Teddy!
Honorable Theodore Roosevelt, late President of the New York Board of Police Commissioners , an enthusiastic sportsman and authority on big game hunting, recently expressed the following opinion of the Winchester, Model 1894, and the .30 Winchester cartridge.

"While on the cattle ranges recently, and obliged to use my rifle for fresh meat, I made quite a full trial of the .30 Winchester using a half jacket bullet, the nose being of naked lead. The bullet mushroomed on both tissue and bone, and it is as wicked shooting a little weapon as I have handled."

"Nothing that I struck got away. There is no recoil and no smoke; the weapon is very light and handy, and the range and penetration are excellent. On the whole I think it is the most satisfactory rifle that I have ever had. It knocks down an antelope as if the beast were hit with a sledge hammer, and I should myself, without hesitation, use it for any game in America. The last shot I made with it was in company with a western friend, with whom I killed my first buffalo thirteen years ago. The antelope was 180 yards off, running. I struck him in the flank, the bullet ranging forward and coming out of the opposite shoulder, bringing him down before he had made another jump. My companion came up and looked at the hole the bullet made, shook his head and said solemnly, ‘I guess that little WINCHESTER is the ace‘; and I quite agree with him. “

More .30-30 praises:
S.M. Emery, Director of the Montana Experimental Station at Bozeman, recently shot 5 blacktail deer with a .30 caliber, Model 1894, WINCHESTER. Three of the deer were shot at 425 yards, one at 275 yards, and the other at 175 yards. The one at 275 yards was shot through the body lengthwise, the bullet entering just under the tail and coming out the middle of the neck where it joins the shoulders. The deer did a complete somersault and dropped in her tracks. In shooting all deer, Mr. Emery did not change his sights, which were set for 100 yards. Nothing could show more plainly than this the wonderfully flat trajectory of the .30 cartridge. (in the hands of an experienced hunter.)

The experience of hundreds of hunters with these cartridges loaded with smokeless powder and soft point bullets has been similar to those cited. These cartridges have been subjected to the most severe tests and proved to be unequaled for accuracy and tremendous killing power.
Winchester Repeating Arms Co. 1897.

And all this with ammunition that was 10% less powerful than the .30-30 cartridge of today!

w30wcf

[fordwannabe]

#1 It is the Ford truck of the gun world! Sure there are others that shoot farther, faster, louder ,impress the guy next to you more ect.ect.ect but it does it all. Not the best power, not the prettiest, not the most technically advanced but when there is work to be done you can rely on old faithful.

#2 My Ggrandfather had one, My grandfather had one, My Dad had one, I have several, my brothers all have one. It's the American way.

#3 It looks like something John Wayne carried and that should be reason enough.

#4 Obama/Pelosi don't want me to have it!
My story and I'm stickin to it,.Tom

[Gary]

The 30-30? Ammo is in every shop that sells ammo because no one buys it. It's everywhere! Now, deer are smarter and tougher than they used to be. No hunter uses the 30-30. Modern hunters know that you need a belted magnum case to harvest even a small deer. To handle the magnum, you need a 12-14 lb bull barrel bolt action rifle with a $2,000 scope.

The "30WCF" is an adequate mouse gun. I have a lot of mice in my area so please send them all to me.

[CowboyTutt]

Before magnumitis.........
From the WInchester 1897 catalog:
Teddy Roosevelt sure liked it and who woud argue with Teddy!
Honorable Theodore Roosevelt, late President of the New York Board of Police Commissioners , an enthusiastic sportsman and authority on big game hunting, recently expressed the following opinion of the Winchester, Model 1894, and the .30 Winchester cartridge.

"While on the cattle ranges recently, and obliged to use my rifle for fresh meat, I made quite a full trial of the .30 Winchester using a half jacket bullet, the nose being of naked lead. The bullet mushroomed on both tissue and bone, and it is as wicked shooting a little weapon as I have handled."

"Nothing that I struck got away. There is no recoil and no smoke; the weapon is very light and handy, and the range and penetration are excellent. On the whole I think it is the most satisfactory rifle that I have ever had. It knocks down an antelope as if the beast were hit with a sledge hammer, and I should myself, without hesitation, use it for any game in America. The last shot I made with it was in company with a western friend, with whom I killed my first buffalo thirteen years ago. The antelope was 180 yards off, running. I struck him in the flank, the bullet ranging forward and coming out of the opposite shoulder, bringing him down before he had made another jump. My companion came up and looked at the hole the bullet made, shook his head and said solemnly, ‘I guess that little WINCHESTER is the ace‘; and I quite agree with him. “

More .30-30 praises:
S.M. Emery, Director of the Montana Experimental Station at Bozeman, recently shot 5 blacktail deer with a .30 caliber, Model 1894, WINCHESTER. Three of the deer were shot at 425 yards, one at 275 yards, and the other at 175 yards. The one at 275 yards was shot through the body lengthwise, the bullet entering just under the tail and coming out the middle of the neck where it joins the shoulders. The deer did a complete somersault and dropped in her tracks. In shooting all deer, Mr. Emery did not change his sights, which were set for 100 yards. Nothing could show more plainly than this the wonderfully flat trajectory of the .30 cartridge. (in the hands of an experienced hunter.)

The experience of hundreds of hunters with these cartridges loaded with smokeless powder and soft point bullets has been similar to those cited. These cartridges have been subjected to the most severe tests and proved to be unequaled for accuracy and tremendous killing power.
Winchester Repeating Arms Co. 1897.

And all this with ammunition that was 10% less powerful than the .30-30 cartridge of today!

Here we go!! I love this part!! This is where the 30-30 transforms from the anemic little cartridge to the "flattest shooting, hardest hitting" magnum of non-magnums!! Why, my Great, Great, Great Grandpa Puxatony Fred used this cartridge to hunt elk. Grandpa Fred routinely shot at 500 yards with NO HOLD OVER! One time while aiming at an elk that was part of a herd, the bullet did a complete pass-through of TWO ELK, went through an oak tree, and imbedded itself 3 inches into SOLID GRANITE!! You could actually feel the earth MOVE when it hit that piece of granite. At least it moved for me. Did the earth move for you too??

Seriously guys, glad you love your 30-30's. Within its limitations it is an adequate cartridge. But it would personally never be my first choice for hunting. People make do with what they have, and historically people got VERY GOOD at using their 30-30's for anything and everything. But ballistically speaking, there are many better choices of cartridge today even in a levergun and without having to purchase any "super short magnums."

OK, let her rip!

-Tutt

[w30wcf]

Similar post running at Marlinowners. Going on 11 pages with a little humor thrown in.
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... cseen.html

Here we go!! I love this part!! This is where the 30-30 transforms from the anemic little cartridge to the "flattest shooting, hardest hitting" magnum of non-magnums!! Why, my Great, Great, Great Grandpa Puxatony Fred used this cartridge to hunt elk. Grandpa Fred routinely shot at 500 yards with NO HOLD OVER! One time while aiming at an elk that was part of a herd, the bullet did a complete pass-through of TWO ELK, went through an oak tree, and imbedded itself 3 inches into SOLID GRANITE!! You could actually feel the earth MOVE when it hit that piece of granite. At least it moved for me. Did the earth move for you too?? -Tutt

Tutt, are you sure the range that Granpa Fred routinely shot with no holder wasn't closer to 700 yards?

For me, the .30-30 is more at home in the woodsy east with venison as the quest. There it performs admirably. In fact many years ago a fellow I know decided to try out the .308 in a M88 Winchester after harvesting deer successfully for many years with his '94 .30-30. After several seasons he said that the .308 didn't drop them in their tracks like his ole' .30-30 did. Flat nosed .30-30 bullets do work well........





w30wcf

[Old Savage]

Tutt, after a couple hundred yards they actually climb a little.

[COSteve]

A few points I think we can all agree on.

* Many here live and hunt in the Eastern parts of the country where dense woods and/or brush are the rule. There shots under 100yds are common. In addition, Eastern deer species are on generally on the smaller side of the spectrum.

* Others of us live and hunt in the Western parts the country where open spaces rule. There shots well over 100yds are common. In addition, Western deer species are generally on the larger side of the spectrum.

* The 30WCF in a '94 is an adequate rifle for deer in the Eastern areas. It's a classic round and weapon that will get things done in a shorter range environment, even on larger game than Eastern sized deer.

* The 30WCF in a '94 is not normally an adequate rifle for deer in most parts of the West where longer range shots are the norm because of it's limited range unless the prey is stalked to a closer range.

* In the hands of a skilled shooter who knows the limitations of the specific round and weapon and the resulting effective range they have to work with for the specific weapon they carry, a 30WCF can be an adequate caliber for all sized deer.

* Many of the western shooters use scopes because of their perceived benefit at the longer ranges they hunt. That's not to say that they need the scopes, they just feel they will shoot better with them.

* Many shooters choose too powerful of a round for deer sized game. They think that a bigger, more powerful caliber can make up for lack of hunting ability and practice shooting.

* A hit with a 30WCF is more deadly than a miss with a 300 H&H Magnum.

Bottom line, the choice of a weapon and caliber are much more 'local area specific' than has been addressed here so far.