The bullet study results are in!

[86er]

In preparation for my latest book that will be out the end of this year I conducted a big study. The idea is to find out what kind of bullets will put down a whitetail deer quicker with the popular behind-the-shoulder shot, cup and core traditional (fast expanding) or premium controlled expansion (including Barnes X and such). 100 hunters were mailed the questionairre and committed to the following:
1 - Shoot at least two whitetail deer, one with each bullet type
2 - Take a behind the shoulder lung shot - broadside
3 - Use a rifle with a cartridge traditionally intended for/used on WTD
4 - Shoot up to 150 yards, but no more
5 - Shoot primarily undisturbed deer such as at a feeder, from a treestand or using concealment
6 - Record the cartridge, bullet brand, style and weight
7 - Measure as accurately as possible the distance the deer travelled after being shot until a) it was recovered dead b) it was down but got up again c) it was found and shot again.

Initially I received some comments from folks that did not want to participate for various reasons, some common reasons were: No Rifle Hunting Zone, only use spot and stalk, refuse to take the behind-the shoulder shot, shoot most deer beyond 150 yards.

Some of the data was contributed by well know people like Larry Weishun, David Blanton, etc. I contributed too.

There were some oddities among the reports. One lady used a muzzleloader and reported Powerbelt Bullets (soft expanding) vs. Barnes (controlled expanding). A fellow stated for .44 Magnum from a rifle, Federal Hydrashok (premium) and Federal "regular" (cup and core). A few folks regarded the Nosler Partition bullets as Soft Expanding and others put them in the Premium catagory. Since they are designed to loose 30% or more weight and the front rapidly expands, I put them in the soft expanding catagory when I had a sample of a premium bullet of same caliber/weight to oppose it. Another bullet that was catagorized as premium was the Berger VLD. I don't know the answer to that one and it was excluded. A few hunters put the Federal Fusion in the premium catagory, probably because they are bonded. However they are made specifically for WTD and are very soft. They were not included in the final report either. There were more than 500 deer taken in 4 seasons, with some hunters sending a response for as many as 5 deer per season! I matched up 500 reports so that there were one of each bullet type from the same hunter, or in a rare instance like the Nosler Partion repots, I matched up an odd report that matched the bullet but with the opposing type. In all there were 250 shot with traditional cup and core and 250 shot with premium. The most common cup and core reported was Remington Core-Lokt. There was a tie for the premium catagory: Barmes (X, MRX, etc) and Swift A-Frame. The sampling was very broad covering Speer, Sierra, Winchester (silvertip and XP3, Failsafe), Remington (Core-Lokt and Bonded), Federal, Swift, Barnes, Nosler, Berger, Kodiak, Stewarts Hi-Performer, Hornady (gummy tips, Interlock and Interbond) and a few others.

The deer were variables - from 100 pounds in Texas to nearly 300 pounds in Saskatchewan.

The results:
Average distance a WTD travelled after being hit meeting criteria 1-7 mentioned above:
Tradtional Cup and Core = 41 yards
Premium = 90 yards

Interesting notes: Although everyone put the LeverEvolution bullets in the traditional soft expanding catagory the results showed that the deer hit with those bullets averaged the same distance as if the bullet was premium. This says nothing of the expansion or lack of - I did not collect that data. The one stand out cartridge that averaged only 18 yards whether hit with Cup and Core soft expanding or Premium (in this case the LeverEvolution was listed as the premium as was Kodiak) among 12 deer was the 35 Remington. There were 2 deer shot with a 375 Winchester but the actual type of bullet was left out of the report. However both of those deer were reported to be DRT. The 45-70 was represented and interestingly there was no difference between the averaged reported with 300 gr bullets compared to the average with 405 gr bullets. The 308 Win was represented well and it is noteworthy that regardless of the bullet type, the 150 and 165 gr weight produced a quicker knock down than the 180 gr weight. Between 150 gr and 165 gr the 165 gr had the edge. The 348 Win had one DRT with "silvertip" and another DRT with "Kodiak" both in 200 gr. 243 Winchester had the same results whether soft expanding or premium with 4 deer averaging 70 yards, all with 100 grain bullets. Another surprise, there were 2 deer shot with a 300 Rem Ultra Mag. One with Core-Lokt and one with Core Lokt Ultra Bonded. Both deer were among the furthest travellers at 96 and 116 yards repectively.

There were some other comments of interest: "I have always taken the high shoulder shot and never had a deer go as far as these lung shot deer. I am not submitting any more data because I'm going back to the shoulder shot. I hope you can convice some others that the shoulder shot is a better choice for shot placement". This guy is a guide in Bennette, CO. "I never realized I was spending money unneccessarily on high dollar ammo when the old fashioned cheap stuff actually works better - Thanks!" O.K. in OK. "My 7mm Rem Mag shoots clear through deer no matter what bullet I use. As long as I shoot through there is enough blood that I can find them. I can shoot whatever ammo is on the shelf and get my deer whether I spend $25 a box or $50." Richard E. in LA.

I don't think I "proved" anything but it does give a large amount of data to consider, and really points towards different shot placement (on the shoulder) as a viable option. Well, whatever you get out of it - Enjoy! (Oh- yeah and buy the book when it comes out - Hunting the Introduced Species in North America by Josef A. Riekers

[jimc]

You've probably seen this but others maybe not, and it tends to support some of your posted observation.

http://www.scilowcountry.org/cedar_knoll_deer_study.htm

[CowboyTutt]

We determined that deer shot in the shoulder ran significantly shorted distances (3 yds.) than those shot in the heart (39 yds.), lungs (50 yds.), and abdomen (69 yds.). There were no significant differences in the efficiency of weapons when grouped by caliber. However, deer ran significantly less frequently (42%), less distance (27 yds.) and left sign more often (88%) when struck with soft type bullets than when struck with hard style bullets (60%,43 yds., and 81%).

Yup, sounds like the study supports Joe's conclusions. Nice work as always Joe! That took a lot of work.

-Tutt

[86er]

Heck if I knew about that study I could have saved myself a lot of work! At least I am now comfortable that the results are repeatable and independently verified.

[rjohns94]

great work Joe. I'll be getting a copy of your book for sure

[Old Ironsights]

We determined that deer shot in the shoulder ran significantly shorted distances (3 yds.) than those shot in the heart (39 yds.), lungs (50 yds.), and abdomen (69 yds.). There were no significant differences in the efficiency of weapons when grouped by caliber. However, deer ran significantly less frequently (42%), less distance (27 yds.) and left sign more often (88%) when struck with soft type bullets than when struck with hard style bullets (60%,43 yds., and 81%).

Yup, sounds like the study supports Joe's conclusions. Nice work as always Joe! That took a lot of work.

-Tutt

That always made intuitive sense to me.

Disable the Motive structures and Mobility becomes radically impared. Maybe not the quickest kill, but you sure don't have to go far for a finisher. (Note my oft posted buck with the detonated shoulder...)

[86er]

Another side note: In reviewing my data collected I see that the SWIFT SCIRROCCO resulted in less travelled distance than the equivalent SWIFT A-FRAME across the caliber range (.24, .25. .284 and .30). This is exactly opposite the findings I have with large exotics and elk between 350 and 750 pounds. On those large animal, but with no set parameters like in the deer bullet study, the A-Frame knocked down the animals quicker than the Scirroco. Interesting phenomenon....

[1886]

Looking forward to that book, Joe. 1886.

[piller]

Now if only the animals will read the study and adhere to it. Good information, Joe. Now I need to find time to see if I can hunt an animal and put the info to good use.

[meanc]

I'm a firm believer in the high shoulder shot whenever the deer are standing still long enough for it.

I believe it was in 99' that I took a 10ptr and two does with my 30-30. The distances were 125yds/75yds/95yds

I was using Rem Cor-Lok 150gr.

The buck @ 125yds was "nose to the ground" crossing the road. I grunted, he stopped and looked around long enough for me to get the high shoulder. He jumped once, landed, took a step and dropped. Complete pass thru too. Tore up the shoulder and severed the spine, then exited behind the offside shoulder.

The 1st doe @ 75yds was in cover facing a down-slope hill. I knew if I took the traditional "heart- lung" it had a chance of running down that hill clean over to another club's property. So, I took another high shoulder shot to bust her running gear so she wouldn't get too far. At the shot she took 4 steps, leaned sideways and dropped. Both shoulders and the spine were crushed.

The 2nd doe @ 95yds was in a clover field with two others. She was perfectly broadside to me and slowly walking. I grunted at her once but she kept moseying along. So, I committed to a heart lung shot thinking that's the safest shot if she doesn't stop. Then I figured a loud whistle might make her stop for just a second, long enough to get a perfect shot. Well we both did.

She ran more than 80yds. 40yds to the left and about 40yds toward me. Blood just spewed a trail. The bullet landed perfectly where I aimed. Both lungs and the heart were all jelly. It was also a complete pass thru. I've never seen a deer run that far that had that much damage to it.

So, with the exceptions of starvation or a trophy buck (and a few friends to track it), I won't take any other shot.

And just so this post is "On Topic"... the Remington 30-30 150gr Cor Lokt bullets work great

[Tycer]

I have four undisturbed, perfect heart/lung broadsides to report with the 360 Dan Wesson 207 grain WFN 21 BHN @ 1850 fps. All four acted the same - Fell down, got up, ran 30 yds, expired. Huge blood trails at every step. Ranges 65-95 yards.

[horsesoldier03]

Not sure where my preference falls both IMO have pros and cons. All my deer have been taken with a 30-30 in Win or Rem promotional cup and core type ammo with only one of them being at 200 yrds. Like many I have shot deer in the shoulder as well as double lung.

In my experiances, the deer shot with a double lung shot do tend to travel but few have traveled more than approx 20 yds. After waiting approx. 15-30 min, and walking to the deer every one of them were graveyard dead at that point. On the other hand, when I have taken shoulder shots, those deer did hit the ground hard exactly where I shot them. What I hated was seeing deer thrash around on the ground and having to get over to them and shoot a second time to put them out of their misery! When cleaning them, you can pretty much throw away the shoulder that you shot them in. Lots of meat damage not to mention bone splinters throughout the shoulder.

I am certainly not enough of an expert to swear to what works best, I have only killed about 15 deer, but in my experiances I felt my double lung shots were the most humane.

[Goat]

I was taught as a lad to "shoot 'em behind the shoulder." That always works but you may have to look for them just a bit because they usually run after the shot but most likely not far. I "accidentally" made my first shoulder shot nearly twenty years ago and have used it intentionally many times after seeing how well that it works. I had read about the shoulder shot but because I thought I would lose too much meat I never tried it until I began to hunt places where a deer could be easily lost if it goes very far at all. My experience is that if you are able to break both front shoulders they collapse. Or if you take the upper shoulder and clip the spine it's game over. I rarely get a deer to stand still in the open much less get them to stand broadside like they do on the hunting shows. Because of that I have learned to take deer on any angle except straight away. I have done that(base of the tail to break spine) but do not intend to again unless it is a wall hanger and I have my 358 loaded with 225gr Nosler Partitions. Since I am willing to shoot deer on strong angles I like the Nosler Partitions and will continue to shoot them in calibers up to and including 270. I am well pleased with the 200gr Core-lokt in my .35 Remington and will continue to use it on any angle except straight away. Bullets are a cheap part of the hunt and one of the parts of the equation over which I have control and I will continue to shoot what has proven itself in the real world of whitetail hunting.
Goat

[Ysabel Kid]

Heck if I knew about that study I could have saved myself a lot of work! At least I am now comfortable that the results are repeatable and independently verified.

But wasn't the "work" fun?

[Old Ironsights]

Yeah, busting the shoulder DOES wreck a lot of meat... but it's a definate "bring it down now" hit. (It was a bummer to lose that whole shoulder on my deer.)

I'm willing to look a little longer to preserve the meat, but if you are an Antler/Trophy guy who is not interested in/donates most of the meat then anchoring probably makes the most sense.

[86er]

I think the whole "wasted meat" thing is a bunch of crapes. I have taken both shoulders off at the joint and removed the skin and leg at the top of the "elbow" One shoulder was shot through, broken and a large hole in it. Did this on 4 separate occassions. Guess how much less the shot-up shoulder weighed, averaged. 4.2 ounces on my postal scale. Now I'm pretty sure there are very few of us on this forum that are starving and really need that 4.2 ounces of meat (maybe less meat if bone was missing too). And, if you know how to care for your meat you can soak it in brine and remove ALL the blood coagulation out of it. Worst case you won't have shoulder chops but you will still have meat for chilli, stew and such. I think the visual effect deters folks from wanting to try to eat the meat and mess with it more than the actual loss of the volume of meat. I understand you there are some instances where you actually blow apart a shoulder or ham but a broadside shoulder shot doesn't ordinarily do that. I've taken the time to conduct these experiements numerous times in order to prove to reluctant clients that the shoulder shot will not lighten their cooler on the trip home. I don't mean to pee in anyone's cornflakes but this irks the snot out of me - I've heard it soooo many times and I just can't re-create it enough to swallow it as fact. I'm done.

[Nath]

Where I take deer the timber is real thick and a shoulder shot is my fave. Any bloody shoulder meat boiled up makes to keep the dog keen for deer hunting

Thanks for your efforts 86er.

N.

[Old Ironsights]

... I understand you there are some instances where you actually blow apart a shoulder or ham but a broadside shoulder shot doesn't ordinarily do that...

Well, that IS what happened to me... I had so much bone frag & jellying in that shoulder it was amazing.

But I have never repeated the shot so I had nothing else to base my comments on.

[piller]

Getting away from .30-30, using a .270 and 130 grain Silvertips I usually took the shoulder shot (took because I can't find Silvertips where I live---nobody carries them that I have found) and it made a thumb sized hole, broke the leg and killed the deer pretty fast on a broadside or slightly angling shot. I did cut away some meat, but I don't think I lost much. Meat loss does seem to be a factor of caliber+bullet+velocity+size of game. There are those on here who harvest more game in a year than I have taken in a lifetime and their experiences are much more reliable than mine. If they tell me what I observed is typical/not typical then I will have to defer to them. Kind of like on my job when someone tells me that they know all about the medicine being given to them because they are such-and-such, it sorta annoys me because they usually have 1/100th of my knowledge of drugs. The people with more knowledge are willing to listen, at least in my experience. Does this carry over into any other area, nobody can truly know.

[O.S.O.K.]

Interesting. Looking forward to the book coming out!

I will add that you get the same results with light/fast vs heavy/slow in the same caliber. Ie: 150 grain vs 220 grain in 30-06. The heavies basically act just like a premium bullet - less expansion and deeper penetration. The difference is in the range since they are moving at a slower rate.