45 Colt Bullet testing. (Pic Heavy)

[RKrodle]

Well I spent my Saturday and part of Sunday testing 45 Colt bullets. I had mentioned in an earlier post that I wasn’t happy with the standard Hornady 250gr XTP. I felt from the results on raccoons they appeared to be a bit explosive causing me to wonder if they were opening up to fast at the speeds I was driving them. So I gathered up a sampling of what I feel are some of the better 45 Colt jacketed bullets. I acquired some Hornady 240gr XTP Mags, 250gr XTP’s, 300gr XTP Mags , Nosler 260gr Partitions, Swift 265gr A Frames, and 300gr A Frames. I want to thank cnjarvis who so graciously supplied the Hornady 240gr XTP Mags. All the loads used H110 for powder at a near max load. I loaded up 10 of each bullet. I just picked a load and used it; I was more concerned with pushing the bullet hard then with accuracy. My intent for the testing is to supply me with the data to pick the best bullet for my hunting situation, and then I will work up an accuracy load with that bullet. I want a bullet that will penetrate, expand, and hold together at the velocities that I’m getting with my Winchester Trapper for use on hogs and deer. I want something that will kill efficiently.
For a testing medium I debated whether to use wet news print or water. I settled on water as I couldn’t come up with near the amount of news print that I thought I needed for testing. Now I thought it would be no big deal stopping a .452 caliber bullet moving around 1500 to 1700 fps. WRONG! I started off with a plastic tub about 3 feet long. The first bullet to try was the 240gr XTP Mag, it blew through it like a water spout. I go down to the barn and find a second, and bigger, tub. I try another 240gr and the first tub blows apart but the second tub stops it but just barely. I tape up the first tub and put a trash bag in it to hold the water. Time for a 250 XTP……the second tub blows apart. I don’t have trash bags big enough for it so I go in the house to regroup and think, normally a dangerous thing. Then it hits me. I’ll build a water trap out of ¾ inch plywood and 1 X 12’s that I have left over from another project. I made the trap 12” X 13” X 8 feet long. I used at least 5 pounds of screws and a tube of caulk. I fill it full of water and touch off another 250 grainer. I wish I would have had a movie camera. Water flies everywhere, but it rips my high class water trap apart, stuff. About this time Joe (86er) shows up and says “ hey let’s put water jugs inside the thing water trap you built and shoot them” , well I was just about to do that anyway, or so I told him. Long story short, that worked out very well. So all the testing was done shooting though a piece of ¾ inch plywood into the water jugs.
Penetration was good with all the bullets but some were exceptional. The Hornady 240 XTP Mag and 250 XTP had the least with about 2 ½ feet. The first 300gr XTP Mag penetrated well but did not expand at all. The second one broke off parts of it nose. One of the 240gr XTP Mags also did not expand. The 260gr Nosler Partition penetrated good and expanded just as you would expect a Partition to do. Check out the picks below of the Nosler, pretty awesome looking. The Swift 265 and 300gr A Frames both penetrated very well with the 300gr winning out. Both A frames also retained their weight very well.
I came to the conclusion that for what I want out of a 45 Colt bullet for my trapper and my hunting situations is that the Swift A frames are the way to go with the Partition coming in a close second. The Hornady’s were a little disappointing in that the 240 and 300gr didn’t expand consistently and the 250gr didn’t penetrate as well as the others. The 265 and 300gr A frames only lost .6 and 1.3 percent of their weight respectively, but the worst was only 13.5 percent for the Partition. The only true disappointment was the Hornady 300gr XTP Mag. It acted more like a solid in this testing then a jacketed hollow point. Also take into account that this was a very small sampling. If I had the time and money I would fire more samples of each bullet and it could tell a different story. But I’m satisfied with it.

[Buck Elliott]

What are you planning to hunt with these loads? FWIW, the bullets are already .45-caliber, and have no real 'need' to expand. They start out bigger around than most .30-cal. slugs will expand to. I prefer complete penetration to expansion, anyway. Gives you two holes for the price of one shot. Don't worry about the drivel of "energy transfer" and all that rot. A bullet that penetrates completely 'transfers' as much -- if not more -- energy than one that stays in the animal. The one that doesn't exit just ran out of gas before it could leave the scene.

Most of the "energy transfer" referred to, is the energy required to deform the bullet, and has little to do with 'knocking down' an animal. 'Knock down" comes from hitting major skeletal structure or short-circuiting the CNS. No bullet you could fire from a shoulder-mounted firearm can generate enough kinetic "knock down" energy to flatten even a deer-sized critter.

[86er]

Lucky you thought of the water jugs idea to save the day! I like the 265 A-Frames and the 300 A-Frame looks good on water jugs and worked okay on the Addax at long range. I don't mind the outcome of that NP either, although it did loose weight. Hey whatever you want to load us is fine with me.

[2ndovc]

I wouldn't write off the 300 XTP just yet.

Don't forget shooting thrugh plywood and into water is not the same as
shooting into a soft skinned animal.

jb

[RKrodle]

Buck, i don't hold much in the energy transfer stuff either, what I do know from my own hunting experience is a good expanding bullet kills better. As I said in the post I'll be hunting hogs and deer mainly. My problem with cast bullets is just what you said, it's a 45 caliber bullet making a 45 caliber hole. Why not use a 45 caliber bullet to make a 60 caliber hole and still penetrate completely. My whole intent when I shot something is to put it down RIGHT NOW, not 150 or 200 yards later when it bleeds out in a thorn thicket that you need a bulldozer to get your animal out. A good jacketed bullet is always my choose over a hard cast for hunting.

[RKrodle]

I wouldn't write off the 300 XTP just yet.

Don't forget shooting thrugh plywood and into water is not the same as
shooting into a soft skinned animal.

jb

The only true disappointment was the Hornady 300gr XTP Mag. It acted more like a solid in this testing then a jacketed hollow point. Also take into account that this was a very small sampling. If I had the time and money I would fire more samples of each bullet and it could tell a different story. But I’m satisfied with it.

I didn't write it off. But I don't believe I can push it fast enough to make it expand reliably. The only bullet out of these samples that I ever recovered from an animal is the 300gr A Frame and it expanded nicely then also.

[BigSky56]

RK, I have used 255's HC WFN @ 900 fps out of a 71/2" bbl ruger and shot clean thru on wt deer behind the shoulder that I rattled up I dont know if they expanded or not, they dropped right there. I believe that a 45 doesnt need to expand to work but penetration is the secret,when comparing jacketed to HC bullets from my experiences whether pistol or rifle HC has always beaten jacketed bullets. danny

[RKrodle]

I had no intentions of this turning into a cast verses jacketed debate. I merely wanted to share with fellow forum members the results of my testing of jacketed bullets. I don't believe anywhere in my post I said these are the end all be all. Again just merely trying to share info.

[zack coyote]

Thanks for sharing the info. I think it gives some of us .45 Colt lovers something to think about. What ever happened to 45 Stomp?

[kimwcook]

RK's post reminds me of a conversation I had with John Linebaugh many a year ago. We were talking about the 475 and hunting big things with big teeth and claws. He said to just load the bullet (hardcast) backwards and it'll be devastating on anything it hits. I believe him, just never have tried it.

[deerwhacker444]

Great post, I enjoyed the test.

Isn't there a big difference between the regular XTP's and the MAG XTP's..? I thought the MAG XTP's were for high velocity. Maybe the regular 300 gr. XTP's would expand the way you like them.

Regular XTP's #45230

XTP MAG #45235

I shoot the .452 MAG XTP's out of my muzzleloader at about 1800 fps. I have yet to find one, so I don't know if they expand or not. The deer don't seem to care which one ...

[Grizz]

Thanks for posting that info, it's good to see that kind of work getting posted. Hopefully you can follow up with your hunting results too, maybe with a cross reference to this post so we can see how the forensics compare to the tests.

Grizz

[CowboyTutt]

Ricky, you must have been reading my mind. I was just thinking this morning of how I could devise a penetration test for bullets but you thankfully beat me to it and saved me a lot of time. Very funny and and informative post!

I've had similar experiences with the 300XTP Mag in 45 Colt revolvers. They act like a solid at lower velocities. I use the 300 XTP non-mag for my self-defense loads in 45 Colt. I've not recovered one but I suspect they open up much better at slower velocities. They might open up TOO MUCH at 45 Colt rifle velocities. I don't know.

I have found the 300 Mags open up very well at 1550 + fps. However, at the just under 2000 fps I can get out of my Puma, I have reason to think they might open up too much judging from how the water jug exploded and the water was partially VAPORIZED! Never seen any bullet do that on a jug before or since.

It would appear that every bullet has a sweet spot of velocity that it works well in.

Thanks again for doing all that testing. I wish I could have been there. Sure would have been fun!


-Tutt

[JerryB]

Thank you for a really good bunch of info for us folks that are always looking for a better or different load for the old .45 Colt round.
Do you think there would be much difference between the regular XTP and the mag?

[adirondakjack]

Yup, velocity is the key word here. Within the proper speed envelope, they all work. Miss the speed they like, they don't. I like the 250 XTP at 1200 to 1500 fps, much below or above that it isn't ideal. the tougher bullets are a rifle-only proposition in .45 Colt, needing casull velocity to work WELL in handguns. If ya MUST have a good expander in .45 that works well in handguns, get the 230 XTP designed for the 1911. It's gonna bloom like a spring rose at 1100 fps or so outta a revolver, and is absolutely nasty at 1350 or so downrange velocity in my c45S cases out of the rifle (but would blow to hell and back at hot long colt velocities. Come to think of it, the 230 XTP would be ideal for use in a 66 or 73 where the gun is restricted to lower pressures.

[crs]

Ricky,
And to think you did all this after the gun show today! Thank you for an interesting and informative report.

+1 on the jacketed / expanding bullet on most game animals. Anyone that has shot deer, elk, or such with the Nosler 300 grain .458 Partition Protected Point, whether factory Winchester .45-70 or handloaded, can testify to the shock and awe that it creates. The entry wound often looks like the exit wound of other bullets and the exit wound can be be awsome. The only one ever recovered from my .45-90 was the one Joe got from shooting a leopard and that is because it shot through the animal and stretched the skin out into the soft sand under the cat.
Also, those Grizzly 405 Kodiaks at 2000+ fps have their own heavier weight shock and awe, often expanding to an inch in diameter if they are recovered. As I remember it, the big Nilgai Joe shot with his .45-70 was a shoot through - one shot kill, not too common with Nilgai.

Everyone should use the bullets he or she favors, but I am on the side of premium jacketed bullets that have controlled expansion like the Nosler, Kodiak, Win Fail Safe, NF CPS and so forth.

[CowboyTutt]

Regarding hard cast lead bullets, I remember one of the earlier Leveguns African hunts where some of the guests bought cast bullets. I believe it was one of the trips even Jim Taylor went on. Anyhow, I forget the specifics but the hard cast bullets did not perform well at all. What I learned from reading about their experiences in Africa on plains game was the following, and I'm only speaking for myself here:

1) African animals are exceeding tough and hardy. They clearly are made of a denser molecular structure than North American game. I suspect, but cannot prove, that they are really from the planet Krypton and arrived here by space ark before the planet was destroyed. It would explain why they are so tough, and why all African animals look so darned wierd in the first place.

2) Care enough to give the very best. Use the best bullet available for what your hunting and for what caliber you are using. We all like cast bullets but they are not state of the art. OK, I said it. Let the flaming begin. But seriously, I think jacketed bullets are simply a better design much (not all) of the time.

Again, just speaking for myself here. But the animal deserves a quick clean death and might tast better without all that adrenaline in him anyways.

-Tutt

[Grizz]

Tutt,

Regarding hard cast lead bullets, I remember one of the earlier Leveguns African hunts where some of the guests bought cast bullets. I believe it was one of the trips even Jim Taylor went on.

are you certain those bullets were hard cast large meplat bullets? maybe my rememory is playing tricks again but I thought the cast bullets in question were different in some regard from, say, Garrett's bullets, which are proven effective in Africa. or am I misremembering again?

Grizz

[RKrodle]

Yup, velocity is the key word here. Within the proper speed envelope, they all work. Miss the speed they like, they don't.

Amen to that. And that is what I was trying to find. I wish I could of found some of the regular 300gr XTP's to try, but I couldn't, and I was running out of money buying some of the other bullets.

[rjohns94]

Excellent post Ricky. I'm looking at xtp bullets for hunting with my .475 this fall. I need to work on those with a medium like you propose, and I will also be considering just hardcast for deer out of the tree stand this fall. I want to get to Hondo and shoot some big stuff and test them out. thanks for your work on this .

[CowboyTutt]

are you certain those bullets were hard cast large meplat bullets? maybe my rememory is playing tricks again but I thought the cast bullets in question were different in some regard from, say, Garrett's bullets, which are proven effective in Africa. or am I misremembering again?

Grizz

Grizz, I don't remember the details anymore. I would love to hear it over again to see. Hopefully, one of the guys who was there will remind us of what happened. They may not have been large meplat bullets.

But after watching a hard cast bullet shatter in paper, cast bullets sort of left a bad taste in my mouth for hunting. I'll stick to the expensive premium stuff.

Care to donate to the Tutt Memorial Bullet Fund? I figure start now and avoid the last minute rush....

-Tutt

[adirondakjack]

With regsard to cast, I'm a fan of large meplat cast HARD bullets in most applications, but for very large game, especially those critters that can and would like to kill you, I'd likely go with solids of something harder than lead UNLESS I could use VERY HEAVY bullets, something over an ounce, and maybe closer to 700 grains, and that would be out of a .50-70 at modest, 1300 fps or so velocities. That's where MOMENTUM makes the day, and keeps on trucking in ways lighter bullets dependant upon velocity (energy) to git-r-dun can't. An example would be The story Jim Higginbotham (Lone Star Rifles) told me of taking a big bison with a broadside head shot, straight on through 3 FEET of skull, and not recovered (he says he's shot lots of bison and NEVER recovered a bullet, even when shot in the hip and exiting the opposite shoulder. He shoots heavy bullets out of a .50 rolling block.

[CowboyTutt]

Jack, I think you bring up a valid point and I wonder how the old world bullets in weights above 525 grains would perform? I think they could do very well. But because of the velocities and pressures they work at, they would not be hard cast and would be much softer which may be why they work so well. A softer bullet is often a tougher bullet, and it also must obdurate properly in the bore for the pressures it is loaded at. But I've not read anything about anyone trying this on African plains game, and I know I don't want to be the first to do so without heavyweight backup from a PH.

I have been down range at an observation booth at FoBD when bullets have landed from various rifles at 1538 yards. My modest 43 Mauser load at 1150 fps takes two seconds from the report to get there but seemed to strike with authority. The 360 Transonic bullet from a 45-70 rolling block, or the bullet from a 45-120 Sharps at @ 1300+ hit almost instantly from the report and with much more authority on the steel targets which leads me to believe they would be the better choice.

But I would be curious to know. Meanwhile, I still think jacketed bullets are the better choice where live animals are concerned particularly if they can turn around and gore or eat you.

-Tutt

[adirondakjack]

I think the point to be made is that like the entire century of .30 to .40 caliber rifles at mach2 and better supplanting the old 50s, technology substitutes one method for another. If the target is a buffalo (bison or cape, take your pick) a modern rifle at high speed and a solid NON-LEAD bullet will punch a hole clean through.. The .50-70 will too, using a 450 or heavier chunk of lead at brinell 10 or so and just about mach 1. What the modern rifle gives us is a flatter trajectory, so theoretically at least, better shot placement at longer ranges. But my old .50, coined in 1872, loaded with 777 and a 450 grain soft lead bullet will drive very deep, ball up like a giant mushroom, and leave an exit wound the size of an egg yolk (it will exit).
It's like the old "bus vs car" deal. Hit a target with a car at 60, or a bus at thirty, if the target is tough, the CAR is gonna get all smashed up and maybe not get through. the bus is gonna march right through.

MOMENTUM.
Here's a .50-70 I recovered after it went through a big ole stump and two 1 galloin water jugs, then skipped along the frozen ground. It retained 100% of it's weight, even though cast of WW, which is a little harder than I like em.





But if we talk light rifles and light calibers (which is what .45 Colt is), ya gotta match the bullet and velocity to the game, and stay within the limits of the round.

[BenT]

Great post and thanks for the back yard engineering entertainment. The right speed is the key to hollow points. I watched my buddy years ago shoot at a whitetail 6 times with his 357. I went to razz him about not being able to hit a barn. Well ,he hit it 5 times and the hollow points expanded but didn't penatrate very deep. So I assumed energy was lost during expansion. That left a bad taste in my mouth about hunting with hollow points.

I just picked up a 45 Ruger bisley. So I'm glad you reported your test. I'm going to have to put some cast bullets to the test. I'm not sure if anyone makes a SP jacketed for the 45.

[RKrodle]

Great post and thanks for the back yard engineering entertainment. The right speed is the key to hollow points. I watched my buddy years ago shoot at a whitetail 6 times with his 357. I went to razz him about not being able to hit a barn. Well ,he hit it 5 times and the hollow points expanded but didn't penatrate very deep. So I assumed energy was lost during expansion. That left a bad taste in my mouth about hunting with hollow points.

I just picked up a 45 Ruger bisley. So I'm glad you reported your test. I'm going to have to put some cast bullets to the test. I'm not sure if anyone makes a SP jacketed for the 45.

BenT, your friends problem is what I was worried about after shooting some raccoons and seeing the explosive results with the Hornady 250gr XTP. It was not the result I expected and it worried me that I would have a problem similar to your friends. If you are wanting to use a JHP in a revolver the Hornady 250gr XTP may work very well with slower velocities. I spoke to the owner of Swift bullets and he told me the 265gr A Frame was designed to "initiate expansion" at 850fps. Now, what that tells me is at 850 fps it may or may not expand and if it does it probably won't expand much. Seeing how the A frames performed I don't think I would want them in a 45 Colt revolver at the sedate speeds that I would use, but at worst they would act as a solid. I haven't really looked into a Soft Point bullet for the 45 Colt so I don't really know whats out there. If you find some and do some testing let us know the results please.

[CowboyTutt]

Jack, you could very well be right about the super heavyweight lead bullets. They certainly did work well on buffalo. If it were me, I would use something in 45 caliber with a bullet weight over 500 grains so the S.D. is over the magic .3 that African PH's traditionally prefer. A bullet around 530 grains will also have a B.C. of around .4 as well. All good stuff.

I'm sure someone must have hunted African plain's game with a traditional buffalo rifle sometime. Wish we could find a story about it.

-Tutt

[BenT]

Ricky what was the distance that you were shooting the jugs at?

[RKrodle]

Ricky what was the distance that you were shooting the jugs at?

25 yards.

[cnjarvis]

Great report Ricky! I've been waiting anxiously on it since I sent you the bullets.

I have to say though that I'm disappointed in the 240 XTP Mag's performance for you. I had expected better. I do wonder if water is the best medium though but the 3/4" plywood should have initiated plenty of expansion. Perchance did the unexpanded bullets pass through a hole from a previous shot? That might account for the lack of expansion.

[RKrodle]

Great report Ricky! I've been waiting anxiously on it since I sent you the bullets.

I have to say though that I'm disappointed in the 240 XTP Mag's performance for you. I had expected better. I do wonder if water is the best medium though but the 3/4" plywood should have initiated plenty of expansion. Perchance did the unexpanded bullets pass through a hole from a previous shot? That might account for the lack of expansion.

cnjarvis, the unexpanded 240gr XTP Mag was the very first one shot. I was pretty surprised also. It had the fps and I thought it would open well. But also remember this was a very small sampling of each bullet and could of been a fluke. With your hunting success with it I wouldn't see any reason to stop using them. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of speed are you getting with yours? The only bullets of this group that I would hesitate use would be the 250 xtp, I think they would perform better at slower speeds, and the 300 xtp mag. The 300 may work better at higher speeds that I can't get with my trapper. I was really happy with the A-Frames and I thought the partition worked well.

[cnjarvis]

Ricky, I'm getting about 1900fps 10 ft from the muzzle out of my 20" carbine.

[CowboyTutt]

Ricky, I'm getting about 1900fps 10 ft from the muzzle out of my 20" carbine.

You go, CN! WoooHooo! SaaaaMokin!

-Tutt

[piller]

Ricky, I have some 300 and 260 grain Speer bullets if you want the fun of testing more bullets. The 300 grain are JFP and the 260 grain are JHP. When and If I have a weekend off someday, maybe we can try it.

[RKrodle]

Brian, Start saving up your 1 gallon jugs and we'll set up another test. I probably used about 40 jugs to stop these bullets. Some of the heaver ones can really penetrate.

BenT, looks like Piller just turned us on to at least one SP.

[243dave]

I'll give my input on the 300gr xtp and the 300gr xtp mag. I shoot them out of a trapper around 1600fps. On deer the regular xtp will not exit if a shoulder is encountered or the deer is shot at a angle. They seem to expand to large if you like exit wounds. The 300gr xtp mag will go length-wise on small deer(I know for a fact). When shooting into dry phone books this bullet gave me more penetration than a 180gr corelokt out of a 300 win mag. If you want expansion with the 300gr mag you'll have to get more than 1600fps to do so(maybe some of you 92 shooters can get them to expand). Even though when shooting phone books I didn't get it to expand but by judging by the exit wounds on the deer I've shot, it leaves a nice size hole in em. The 300gr xtp mag is my favorite bullet in my trapper. Dave

[RKrodle]

Dave, thanks for the input, that's good info. In my opinion there's nothing better then real life experience.

[dbateman]

Ricky nice report lots of good info there thanks for sharing
good input from every one...man i have a soft spot for the 45colt

[JohndeFresno]

Ricky -

I'm marking this for extensive reading later (overwhelmed with personal matters). At a glance, you went to quite a bit of work on the testing, and (at a quick peek) there are some great comments that bear perusal. Thank you for all of the work!

[RKrodle]

Ricky -

I'm marking this for extensive reading later (overwhelmed with personal matters). At a glance, you went to quite a bit of work on the testing, and (at a quick peek) there are some great comments that bear perusal. Thank you for all of the work!

JohndeFresno, I hope your personal matters work out for you.