Long Range Shooting with a .357 Lever Gun?

[COSteve]

I got my Rossi with a 24" barrel to hopefully shoot out to 200 yds at our range. The help with my aim, I got a Marbles tang sight and thinner front sight giving me a sight radius of 30". I figured I'd have to go to hot 357 Mag loads with my 158grn Zero JSP bullets to reach 200 yds.

To my surprise, not only can I 'ring' an 8" dia steel at 175 yds and a 12" at 200 yds consistently even with 61 yr old eyes, I can do it in a long loaded, warm 38 spl. Having that success, I decided to load up some of my stout 357 Mag reloads and go after our 20" steel at 300 yds and to my amazement, I was able to hit it too without having to raise the tang sight anywhere near the top.

I'm astonished as at that range I can hardly even see the target through the aperture!! This Rossi is much, much more accurate than I would have guessed before I bought it. The only limitation seems to be the one behind the trigger.

So, with that as a start, what kind of long range performance have you gotten with your 357 leverguns using iron sights? How about with scopes? I'm not talking about trying to hunt at that long a range, just what kind of success have you had with say steel targets?

[Old Ironsights]

Does shooting "Big Bore" Steel Rams at 200m count?

I knock them down right about as well as with a .30-30...

[AJMD429]

Now we know you're pulling our leg, because them .45-70 boys tell us that even the .444's won't move a gong enough to make noise, and them .30-30 boys tell us that the little 'pop-gun' pistol-cartridge rifles won't shoot much past 75-100 yards. 'Sides that - the WSSM and pointy-bullet folks done told us that if the bullet isn't pointed with a purty little colored tip, or Molly (whoever she is) hasn't 'coated' it - it just won't be accurate at all...

Seriously - think of all the .32-20 and .32-40 target and similar power hunting guns over the years that shot low-pressure loads and yet killed all manner of game and varmints and black ink on targets. Your .357 levergun may not be pushing any 'limits' as far as modern firepower or technology, but it is one heck of a gun.

Imagine if you travelled time and wound up in the 1800's with just THAT gun, and several thousand rounds of ammunition... You'd have ruled the roost for sure.

On almost EVERY gun I get, the first thing I do, is mount a scope - a 36x BSA one I got cheap - and shoot some groups with factory ammo. I've not had ANY leverguns do less than 2.5 inches at 100 yards (don't have a 100 yard range), and many of them do 1" or less. Cast bullets seem more of a problem for me, but I'm talking factory loads, or 'stock' cast bullets I bought before I realized most Marlins and Pumas were overbore and shoot the oversized cast ones best.

I do that because I want to get an idea if the GUN is ok - any loose parts or bound-up parts will show themselves easily at 36x off a bench. Once I know the GUN is decent (and ideally what load it likes) then I'll decide what scope, if any, I'll leave on it.

I like Williams FP peep's best on leverguns, but if the gun is really accurate, and I'll want to try to SEE something only a couple of MOA so I can try to hit it, I'll scope it. Hunting guns for deer I need scoped unless I plan not to hunt dawn or dusk with that gun - scopes 'gather' (or whatever) light better and I can see deer better with them in poor light to place my shot well. I don't like to try to hunt (from a stand) with anything higher than 10x, and usually 3-4x is fine for me, but it is always nice to KNOW that the gun I'm shooting could get a 1.5" group at 100 yards when I had the 36x on it. Gives me confidence that the GUN will do it's part if I do mine.

The "twilight" apertures really help on the Williams FP's, and simply removing the aperture to 'ghost ring' them helps alot and doesn't seem to impair bench accuracy all that much. My 'peep' groups seem to average about twice the size of my scope groups mostly, if I really concentrate and focus on target and front sight only.

I'd bet the .357 Puma 24" guns would be among the most accurate leverguns out there, due to low recoil, good ballistics, long barrel, etc. Deadly on deer, too, even though some folks seem to feel that unless you use special bullets, a .444 Marlin or .500 S&W might not be enough for a quick kill. Shot-placement beats food-pounds, and if you put that 'little' .357 bullet in the heart it will drop your deer pretty fast. The .444 will do it 'faster' IF you hit the same place, but not if the recoil or muzzle blast causes you to shoot a few inches off where you intended...

There are some articles around the forum on 'accurizing' the Marlins and Pumas - things about triggers, freeing-up magazine tubes and forends so they don't bind, etc. If you can't find them, ask, and someone likely has the links handy. You might want to slug your barrel, too, if you plan on cast bullet loads.

[_n4z_]

I just recently got a Marlin 1894c .357mag that I've been getting better aquainted with. Last weekend I shot a really good batch of groups at 50 yards while adjusting my new Skinner peep sight. Did so well I skipped 100 and jumped over to the 19 inch gong at 200 yards. Couple shots to find the hold and discovered that it can consistantly hit the steel using my 158grJSP handloads.

Pretty sweet.

My 30-30 Marlin is also good to go at 200 and 300 yards in the gong ringing role. Not tried the .357 at 300 yet. The 30-30 has the stock factory sights on it.

[COSteve]

Stock factory sights at 300 yds! You are likely young and certainly have great eyesight. At 61+ yrs, the eyes aren't what they use to be by a long shot and I find that I can see my 1/16" wide front sight clearly by looking through a small rear peep because the main advantage of the .032" aperture on my Tang is the longer Depth of Field it creates.

In addition, the tang extends the sight radius by a lot and with my 24" barrel developing about 80fps more than a 20" barrel, I've got the velocity plus a 30" sight radius instead of one about 14" long like those on a carbine. Finally, I reload all my ammo so I've taken the time to get a good grouping load developed which gives me a surprisingly accurate weapon.

To support my claim of the Rossi's accuracy, I took a friend out last weekend who'd never shot a levergun before and after about 20 rds he tried a 5 shot string at the 8" steel (at 175 yds) and hit it 4 times in a row. All he did was sit at our bench with both elbows on the table. He was ecstatic! It is surely more accurate than anything I had hoped for.

And yes, I've heard the armchair hunters talk that you need at least a .338 or .300 Win Mag to shoot deer and oh My God, for an elk they need an anti tank gun!! I always respond with, "How do you think the old timers back in the 1880's, with just a plain old 44-40 carbine and black powder were able to put venison on the table and defend themselves from bears and such?"

[Jacko]

Good thread , have been thinking of putting a Tang sight on my 24" barrel .357 Rossi for a while now and you just made up my mind . I replaced the factory buckhorns with a dovetail mounted Skinner compact peep sight , improved my accuracy no end up to 100 yards on the range but essentially they are a set and forget sight .

regards Jacko

[COSteve]

Deleted

[Griff]

I have two Rossi .357 leverguns; they were used by my wife & son when they were active in SASS. Nowadays they pretty much collect dust in the safe, taken out to clean, admire & reminise...

Anyway, we got my son's when he was 11, circa 1989... almost every monthly match out at West End Gun Club was followed by an informal long range match... usually consisting of 10 shots on steel @ 200yds. The boy prided himself on shooting amongst "the big boys" and using the regular CAS load I made for him & his mom; .38Spl cases, WSP primer & 3.2 grains of PB behind a 158 grain BBRN I bought from S&S Bullets.

I now cast that same boolit outta 4-gang Saeco mold #391. It's very surprising just how accurate that little rifle can be! That load is a little on the "slow" side, so wind has a "long" time to act upon the bullet in flight, but on calm days... it's excellent!

[El Chivo]

yeah they get out there, max range is between 1 and 2 miles I think. I have knocked over 200 yard rams with 158's regularly (some days more regularly than others).

If you are really going to shoot long range (600-900 yards) you might like the .357, cheaper/easier to load for all those ranging shots. And the bullets are not so long, they would have good stability when they lose velocity. I've heard about 30-30's starting to wobble when they slow down.

I think the whiz-bang guys want to hold dead-on and still hit the target at 300-400 yards. They have no interest in tang sight settings and holding over.

What they really want is the biggest, loudest bang, with the heaviest bullet and widest caliber they can legally buy. It proves something to the rest of us.

[Noah Zark]

. . . I'm astonished as at that range I can hardly even see the target through the aperture!! This Rossi is much, much more accurate than I would have guessed before I bought it. The only limitation seems to be the one behind the trigger.

Congratulations, COSteve! It's never to late to take up open-sighted long range shooting as long as your corrected vision is capable.

When shooting rifles, I start at 100 yds and go out to 600 yds. All of my leverguns with the exception of one Ruger 96/22 have either factory sights or a receiver sight. I can usually chase empty 20 oz soda bottles around the 200 yd berm offhand with 22 Magnum, 32-20, 357 Magnum/38 Special, 30-30, 375 Winchester, 44 Magnum, 45 Colt, and 45-70 leverguns if I'm having a good day. And my eyes are halfway to 110.

I set your last sentance in bold to emphasize the point you make. In this neck of PA, people don't even think of shooting a rifle without putting a scope on it first, and I think that's a rotten shame. My 20-yr-old daughter has a 223 Saiga AK-style rifle and can consistently ring the 440 yd gong with the standard AK-type tangent leaf sight off the bench. She can hit usually better than 25/30 rounds with factory 223/5.56 ammo. And sometimes a few of her former HS classmates are at the range when we are, and they are flabbergasted that she can "thunk" that gong time and again with open sights.

More people need to TRY longer range shooting, and when they see how easy it is, they'll do it more often and improve.

JMO,

Noah

[COSteve]

Well, I've got to admit that the small aperture in the tang sight is what makes it possible for me. Without it I'd only see the front sight as a blur. Another way to look at the tang sight is that it was the 'everymans' equivalent of a scope sight back in the 1800s. A good shooter could test the capability of his/her load at extreme range with one. Kentucky windage was 'the method' rather than a lazer rangefinder.

This actually fits my shooting abilities quite well. I don't shoot paper well because I get distracted doing the same shot over and over, hence my groups are fair at best. But give me a field littered with clay pigeons at random ranges from say 20+yds to 275+yds and what a difference. Something about estimating range, tilt, wind, etc. keeps my head in the game and I'm a much better shooter.

[Griff]

..I've heard about 30-30's starting to wobble when they slow down.

Actually it's the transistion from super- to sub-sonic that causes instability with any projectile at ranges.

Which is why you either want a load and projectile that either doesn't get above or stays above the speed of sound at whatever range your target is.

[Noah Zark]

. . . give me a field littered with clay pigeons at random ranges from say 20+yds to 275+yds and what a difference. Something about estimating range, tilt, wind, etc. keeps my head in the game and I'm a much better shooter.

+100. Good on ya.

That's pretty much the only kind of shooting I do anymore. I especially like the instant feedback of seeing a soda bottle sent spinning, or a claybird breaking up, or the puff of dust. The "shoot three shots and walk 200 yds" crowd at the range doesn't understand, but they tolerate me and those like me.

Noah

[Old Ironsights]

. . . give me a field littered with clay pigeons at random ranges from say 20+yds to 275+yds and what a difference. Something about estimating range, tilt, wind, etc. keeps my head in the game and I'm a much better shooter.

+100. Good on ya.

That's pretty much the only kind of shooting I do anymore. I especially like the instant feedback of seeing a soda bottle sent spinning, or a claybird breaking up, or the puff of dust. The "shoot three shots and walk 200 yds" crowd at the range doesn't understand, but they tolerate me and those like me.

Noah

I agree, but the "shooting stuff on the ground" thing doesn't work for most ranges. Heck, I have a hard enough time getting most of them around here to "let" me use a professionally built Steel Gong. Anything but Paper is Scary (unless you are shooting CAS, then you can shoot steel at 10ft. )

That's why I shoot at Knox & not here where I live.

[tman]

I got my Rossi with a 24" barrel to hopefully shoot out to 200 yds at our range. The help with my aim, I got a Marbles tang sight and thinner front sight giving me a sight radius of 30". I figured I'd have to go to hot 357 Mag loads with my 158grn Zero JSP bullets to reach 200 yds.

To my surprise, not only can I 'ring' an 8" dia steel at 175 yds and a 12" at 200 yds consistently even with 61 yr old eyes, I can do it in a long loaded, warm 38 spl. Having that success, I decided to load up some of my stout 357 Mag reloads and go after our 20" steel at 300 yds and to my amazement, I was able to hit it too without having to raise the tang sight anywhere near the top.

I'm astonished as at that range I can hardly even see the target through the aperture!! This Rossi is much, much more accurate than I would have guessed before I bought it. The only limitation seems to be the one behind the trigger.

So, with that as a start, what kind of long range performance have you gotten with your 357 leverguns using iron sights? How about with scopes? I'm not talking about trying to hunt at that long a range, just what kind of success have you had with say steel targets?

steve, sounds like you are a true RIFLEMAN. you have rediscovered what the .357s&w has been doing for over 70 years, and that is, taking all north american game at practical ranges. nice shooting.

[Birdman]

Last weekend I was shooting my 20 inch 44 mag out to 250 yards and we were having a ball. Some were shooting AR's and doing all right. My brother and I grabbed our levers, (both 44 cal) and started knocking things over and then all of a sudden the other boys were putting down their AR's and wanting to shoot our levers. Great time had by all.

[RKrodle]

I have a IPSC type silhouette gong set up, it's 170 yards from my front yard fence. People are amazed that you can hit it with open sights, and are blown away that you can also do it with a handgun. Once you spot for them and they find out they to can do it they are hooked.

[Slick]

Good for you! I too reload a lot of .38spec brass as is is free or very inexpensive.

I shoot .38's almost exclusively in my Marlin 1894c and Rossi 92src.