What's "Good Enough" for you?

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:41 pm

I've been working with a Marlin 30-30 for a while. I've tried several bullets, several powders, primers, etc. I've done all the tricks to the rifle that usually help enhance your accuracy. Accuracy has been downright awful to just "ok". I've finally come to the conclusion that this rifle just isn't going to be what I'd like. It is clearly the least accurate 30-30 I've ever had. My best load is consistently putting 5 shots into 2.5" at 100 yards with a 7x scope. Believe me, I am thrilled to have that kind of accuracy after some of the loads I've tried in the 6 to 7 inch range. Realistically, it's plenty good for the work this rifle will see, which is deer hunting in fairly open timber where 125 yards would be a long shot. Still it kind of bugs me. I don't like inaccurate rifles.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:02 pm

Your best is about what I consider average for most levers today.
Of course you only hear about the best shooting rifles. Nobody brags about those average meat bringer homers.
I bet the average factory bolt gun don`t do much better than that! 30 years ago a -1" Bolt gun was a keeper for sure.

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:02 pm

I know what you mean. Some rifles are just more finicky than others. There IS a load that will shoot in that rifle, but you have reached the point of diminishing returns. If it were me, I would accept it, but funny thing is, if it were a Model 70 I would have traded it already. Yea, I know I'm a hypocrite. I expect 3/4" or less from my bolt guns, but far less than that from my leverguns. I think the difference is the ranges I shoot with them. Would you accept 2.5" at 100 from iron sights? If so, then you need to structure your shots to the same rules as your iron sighted rifles and be satisfied.

Ed

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:05 pm

A 5-shot group of 2.5" at 100 yards is perfectly fine by my books. You're good to 200 yards with that.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:11 pm

"good enough" is the kill zone of the game I'm after with that gun.

With me that means <4" at 100yds. Can't see better than that.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:17 pm

I am always looking for an inch for three. 1 1/2" is ok for some loads.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:22 pm

Certainly sounds good enough to me. I seldom take a shot over 100 yrds anyways. I have been known to push it to 200, but sounds like your still shooting a minute of deer even at that range. Best thing you can do is practice!

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:26 pm

Old Savage wrote:I am always looking for an inch for three. 1 1/2" is ok for some loads.

Yea, me too! But that's why I'm always STILL looking for it!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:28 pm

The truth is that most guns are "good enough" for me, but I do categorize them by my effective range.

In my closet, a gun that I consistently shoot a 2" with at 100 yards is in my book a 100yd gun, 150yds at the most, which is perfectly OK because that is my usual hunting range in most of the places I hunt anymore.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:28 pm

Old Savage wrote:I am always looking for an inch for three. 1 1/2" is ok for some loads.

That is usually my goal with my levers too. This rascal however has shown to have some very erratic tendencies. So I went to shooting 5 shot groups in a string, leaving three minutes between each shot to try and maintain some kind of consistency.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:33 pm

If deer, hogs or plinkin are your games than you should be good. My 30/30 may never see a deer and will definetly see plenty of varmints and predators so I'll need better. I'm with Savage on this one, if my "new2me" Win 94 will hold 1 1/2" and under for 3 shots I'm good. My old trapper would. BTW, I never 5 shot groups, always 3.

Unfortunatly, my Win seems to want to string the shot vertically. I've only had 1 group at 1.5" when I sighted it in a couple weeks ago. The rest were strung out and between 3-4". That was with factory 150 loads. I'll see what happens when I get some hands loads into it.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:43 pm

Minute of pop can is a good gauge for me......

I don't shoot paper much. I get it on where I want it, then I shoot rocks, or pop cans or what ever. I use Jeff Cooper's rule for shot groups. One shot....did it hit? Yes? Good Group

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:47 pm

I imagine that most shooters couldn't do any better and never know its a bad thing...

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:48 pm

I think a lot of us, myself included, sometimes forget that a lever gun was designed as a sporting arm, not a sub-moa target rifle.

AndyM · Post by **AndyM** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:00 pm

BlaineG wrote:Minute of pop can is a good gauge for me......

I don't shoot paper much. I get it on where I want it, then I shoot rocks, or pop cans or what ever. I use Jeff Cooper's rule for shot groups. One shot....did it hit? Yes? Good Group

+1 on this. I usually shoot 3 shot groups - I think 2.5" is fine for a hunting rifle.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:05 pm

I always shoot five shot groups.
If I can cosistantly get 2.5" at 100 yards I am happy, any less is a bonus.

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:06 pm

Look at it this way - none of your shots are more than 1" from your point of aim, even though some are an inch right, some are an inch left, etc. That's okay for 100-150 yd shooting. Further and I would like to see more accuracy.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:07 pm

I use 3" Shoot-N-C target dots on a plain background for my 100 yard targets. For any lever action rifle with iron/receiver sights my standard is that if any rifle can put 3-shots into the 3" target dot, the rifle is good to go. That's not near enough for a target shooter but should be good for a hunter.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:19 pm

2.5" for five shots is by no means slouchy. I've had .30-30s that did better, but a good many were worse, while most clustered right around there.

Honestly, I don't put much stock in 5-shot groups from big game hunting rifles. In nearly 50 years of hunting, I cannot recall a single time when more than three shots were needed in a fairly short period. Far more important to me is knowing that the first shot will hit in a consistent spot. Consequently, I have sometimes fired 5, 7, even 10-shot groups with a particular rifle and load -- at a rate of one shot a day. When you see a small group here, you know darn well the rifle will never provide you an excuse for missing!

I had one 336 that would do no better than 3" for three shots, even if I let the barrel cool to the touch between shots. Fired one-shot-a-day, it gave 6-shot groups just a bit over 1.25".

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:29 pm

I guess it depends a lot on the gun and load. You've found a load it somewhat likes. If it is consistent with that load, and the load will do what you need it to do, then there is no problem. If it is inconsistent with the load, or the load isn't enough for what you will call on the gun and load to kill, you've got a problem.

Issue # 2 is the gun. You said it was a "Marlin 30-30". A 336? Common gun, and easily replaced. If the lack of accuracy really bugs you, sell it and get another one. Yes, you may lose a bit on the exchange, but you'll be happier with a gun that is more consistent. Now, if the rifle in question was rare, an antique, or especially valuable or sentimental, that changes all the considerations quite a bit, and you'd probably want to hang onto it despite what you consider to be frustrating, although acceptable groups.

dbateman · Post by **dbateman** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:43 pm

2.5" inch group is all you need for a hunting rifle 1" is better
most battle rifles(sks slr min30/14) wont shoot under 2" at 100yds without tuning and do just fine

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:47 pm

tiny groups for the sake of tiny groups .... I look for consistentcy rather than tiny groups... hey 3 shots into 2.5 is pretty good shooting at 100 yards.

will that get 3 shots in the "kill zone" of a deer? I dont know about the rest of you guys... but I am a terrible bench shooter... glad the coyotes dont know that...

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:24 pm

5 into 2.5 isn't great but its not bad either, especially considering what it's intended use is.
You could always use it for a donor rifle and maybe do some rebarreling/wildcatting with it.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:28 pm

You'd expect to see that or better with good optics and a steady bench. But like you said, its funny how you had to work so hard to get mediocre groups.

This load it seems to like, will it do it consistently? If so, it may just be a one-trick pony. And have you tried the Leverolution bullets with any of your loads? Midway has 'em now (or they did have 'em last time i checked) ---

I have to admit, when i am shooting open sights, i do well to get 4" at 75 yards when i am just messing around, but i took a scoped Model 94 with a 3-9x scope and a hunting reticle to a real range and it ticked off a 7/8" 3 shot group with Hornady's miracle worker at 100 (not handloads - straight off the shelf at Bass Pro), --- that was the absolute best, but no other groups were over 1.5" -- which i considered excellent given how poorly i shoot without the glass crutch on top

And is the scope and mounts 100% ? doesn't take much wiggle to throw it off (i would assume yours is good, but figured id throw in something obvious and easy as a possibility)

CEMENTHEAD · Post by **CEMENTHEAD** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:18 pm

I'll accept 4" groups of 3 shots at 100 yards (open sights) for hunting arms such as levers, muzzleloaders and shotguns, IF they're consistent. I limit myself to 150 yards or less with these hunting guns anyways for the shear enjoyment of actually "hunting" and getting closer. 90% my hunting guns will do 6" or less at 200 yards if I do my part, once I've found the right load.

Scoped, bolt action hunting rifles, different animal....I want no more than 6" at 300 yards (3 shot group) consistently from the prone position.

Target rifles....1 MOA or less.

Just my .02 $.....Thanks, Tom

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:31 am

For a hunting gun, I'd accept 2" @100. I ain't sure I can shoot any better'n that any more!

TomF · Post by **TomF** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:55 am

I would expect 2.5" from open sights at 100 yards from a bench. A scoped gun should shoot better. Add to the 2.5" best group, hunting conditions, adrenalin, and possibly shooting off your hind legs and the group just opened up to 5"+. This gun would be a candidate for rebarrelling to another configuration.

TomF

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:49 am

The only time I put a rifle on a bench/rest is to make sure it's hitting close.

I don't hunt that way, I don't shoot that way. The most "supported" I ever shoot is sitting/kneeling. 90%+ of the time I snap-shoot offhand - so that's how I practice.

And <4" at 100 offhand with irons will ring a gong or kill a critter every time.

JB · Post by JB » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:20 pm

2.5" from a lever action 30-30 is fine with me. I want my centerfire boltw tot shoot 1 1/2" or better with select loads.

So many people on the net claim to have bolt rifles that average 1/4", 1/2" , etc., but there very few rifles outside of expensive benchrest rifles that will average those kinds of groups. Shooting one good group out of 20 doesn't make an average. I have several rifles that average in the sub 1" range, but I've owned far more rifles that shot closer to 2" or larger than 1" or less.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:51 pm

TedH,

5 shots into a 2.5"@ group is not really too bad.
A few years back my cousin had a Marlin 336(35 Rem)
with I believe a Burris 2x7 power scope.
He was getting groups of around 3"@100Yds and he tried
a bunch of things but not much helped.
His grouping was around 1.5-2 inches @ 50 yards when he
moved his target up.S/B better than that.Had him clean his gun
thoroughly then and I pulled my MTM predator shooting rest out.
I love their products for the price you cannot beat them.

I know its a pain but I talked him into removing the scope
using his iron sights and placed a silver dollar sized solid black
bullseye dead center on a 2x2 foot piece of white constuction
paper.

After readjusting sight in for 50 yards and lolly popin the top of the
front sight to just make contact with 6 oclock bottom of bull was
able to shoot groups @ 3/4 inch.(I would have left it with no scope)
Anyway we knew then there was a problem with somthing to do with
the scope/mounts etc. not the gun!
He ended up changing the base to a Leupold 1 piece and used
Lock-Tight on all screws etc. He finally was able to keep his groups
around 1.5" at 100 yards.Again I think we were doing 3 shot groups.
Good Luck with it!!!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:34 pm

Sorry to bug you again but if all else fails and no matter
what, you cannot get the gun to shoot acceptable.
and you are sure its not the optics/mounts etc.

I would use a box of the new Hornady leverutions.
you should not have to dork around with tons of various ammo.

If that was my gun I would only use the new Hornady
stuff because it turns your old 30-30 into a totally different animal.
If the gun then is still not right, I would contact Marlin and explain
to them you have tried everything and nothing works.I would say
you have tried various Factory ammo and it shoots all over the place.

I am almost sure they will fix your gun free except for shipping it
there,I have delt with them and they are Fantastic for making sure
you are happy with your gun,Make sure you really clean it good before sending it there.
But I will tell you what, with that new Hornady ammo that marlin
of yours would be the ideal woods gun and will/should shoot out
to 300 Yds what that ammo.that makes it a field gun too most of the time. Again sorry to send you another note right after the first one but I was thinking about this situation over dinner and just thought of this,
Regards!!!

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:54 pm

I appreciate your input madman, but I've been there and done that with the optics. It's not the scope or mounts. The rifle is nearly 20 years old and I wouldn't expect Marlin to do a darn thing with it. I'm just going to be satisfied with the load I have and just go hunting. I think after I bust a couple deer with it I won't worry too much about it not shooting.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:03 pm

In my trapper 2-2.5 is fine by me and i am happy. With my bolts it is a hole nother thing. My enfield is the worst with its favorite load shooting 1.5 @ 100 from a rest. My others will do much better if I dont screw it up. It depends alot on the type of sites. For me peeps and scopes I shoot much better then buckhorns but that is probably the same for most folks.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:16 pm

TedH,
Good Decision,besides 5 shot groups @ 2.5 inches will wack
anything that needs wacking!

Best of luck and hope you get a Big one!!!

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:52 pm

Optics are generally better than iron sights. Not always, both have their place.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:13 am

I'd be pretty happy to have the 4" at 100 yards. I usually have a flier in the bunch.

I usually shoot offhand now unless I'm sighting in. I judge by silhouette standards and 4" will keep you on the rams - the key is consistency.

If I shot prairie dogs at 300 yards I might be more fussy, but deer and yotes at 150 or so is my reality. I figure on offhand shots in the field.

I did hit an English sparrow in the head at about 35 yards, offhand, that's a small target.

missionary5155 · Post by **missionary5155** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:10 am

Good morning
I have lever guns here and up North ... My goal is Excelence ! I just keep at it until I feel "That´s all it can do"... then I will carry it about the desert (here Peru) or the Illinois river bottoms and Know what I have in my hands.
If it will not stomp a ground hog at 50 yards then it is GONE !
Mike in Peru God Bless ya !

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:41 am

Like others have said, it really depends on the gun's intended use. In general, I'll accept trading off 'handiness' for accuracy, and since leverguns and semiautos are so much handier, I'd be ok with 5 shots in 3-4" off a bench at 100 yards for them (I'm not a good enough standing shot to 'measure' a gun that way). Bolt-guns or bigger heavier levers and semiautos should do 2" or less at 100 yards for me to like them, and any gun calling itself a 'varmint' gun should do 5 shots in 3/4" or LESS at 100 yards off the bench.

I usually scope every new gun I get with the same 36x scope, shoot it off a bench, and see what the GUN is capable of. After that, I'll decide whether I want a scope, or peeps, and what magnification of scope. I really prefer peeps for pest guns and plinking guns, but for deer about half the time I'll want a 3-9x50 so I can see in woods in dawn and dusk. I never could see putting a 20x 'varmint' scope on a gun just because it is a .270 or just because it is a bolt gun, and never could see putting a 4x on a gun accurate enough to shoot a feral cat in the eye at 100 yards (because I won't be able to see the cat's eye with a 4x!). Usually that means (for the guns I've had) my leverguns wear peeps or 3-9x range scopes, and my bolts wear peeps or 5-20x scopes, but a heavier 'varmint' bolt gun (or AR...

) has hopefully earned a 10-40x scope.

I know some guys can see a pop can (or feral cat's head) at 300 yards with peeps or a 4x scope, but maybe my eyes are just bad (my mom warned me about that...

) - but with a 40x, you can pick what part of the pop can to aim at.

A 10-40x scope will get me able to shoot a consistent 1/2" group off the bench if the gun can do it's part, and sometimes that is just FUN to do, but more often, the '40x' setting is to zero off the bench and get confident, but the scope will be on 10x for shooting in the field at a coyote or something. Again, that would typically be on some big old clunky bolt gun or HBAR and not a .44 Mag carbine...

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:40 am

Yea, you older guys need the scopes!(eyes going away???)

Nothing wrong with open sights for us younger guys.
My pair of Colt Match HBARS (Linda&Lucy) will bench shoot inch
groups all day long.If your gun cant shoot that good on the bench
dont even think you will be competitive at the bigger matches.
because once you are on the ground off bench it starts there.
The NM Garand mostly sits in the closet except for fun matches..
Some years back when some of us started spanking the older
guys with our black toys as they called them,Now most everyone
thats in the higher ranks are shooting the BLACK TOYS!!!
At least in the Pa region..
Keep wacking them!!!

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:19 pm

Minute of deer is about a 6" to 8" circle. You are way inside that.

HATCHETTJACK · Post by **HATCHETTJACK** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:13 pm

tedh, have you let someone else shoot it... if not, find another good shooter and see how they fare with it

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:39 pm

Don't think that would solve anything. Not trying to toot my own horn, but I don't have any shooting buds that shoot as well as I do. If I can manage good groups with a 470NE off the bench, I think I can hold still with a 30-30.

Now I realized that I'm out of the one bullet this rifle will attempt to shoot, the Sierra 150gr. Of course Midway and Grafs are out of stock as well.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:44 am

man I don't like those high power scopes - too jiggly.

My favorite scope setting is 1.5x, it gives a realistic picture with the target just slightly more dramatic looking. Beyond that
things look unnatural.

With a scope, it seems to me that out past 150 yards you need to hold over anyway, I can be just as accurate with a tang sight and setting the target on the blade. Aiming into the air above the target seems iffy to me.

Retro · Post by **Retro** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:50 pm

Heh. This sounds soooo familiar.

Number of years back I got this 336, 30-30, microgroove. Over here it takes a year or more for a licence for a specific gun, so you can't just trade it for something more accurate.

Started with, oh, 7" or so 5 shot groups at 100 meters/yards.

Messed around. Chased loads from 28 to 34 grains. Changed the scope. Messed around with the front stock and the magazine tube.

Eventually found that this rifle is very sensitive to the bullet jump. 27 thou from ogive to throat. Not 25. Not 30. 27.

Oh, and Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers. Anything else, add 1/2 "

I'm getting sub 2 inch five shots at 100m now. Consistently. As long as I maintain that 27 thou... And this rifle likes velocity, this load runs 2300 (170 gr Sierra #2010).

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:32 pm

Retro wrote:... And this rifle likes velocity, this load runs 2300 (170 gr Sierra #2010).

170 grains at 2,300 fps? That is a serious load!