FFL to FFL - WRONG ?

[Gun Smith]

I'm trying to buy a handgun from an out of state non licensed seller. My local FFL holder says that can only be done FFL to FFL. But U.S.C. 922(a)(3) says that is not true. Is this a dealer to dealer profit making thing, or am I missing something?

[awp101]

Near as I've been able to tell it's a CYA thing.

[marlinman93]

It's a stupidity thing. People are scared and don't know the rules.

[86er]

Some states have a law that requires an exported from State to State handgun to leave from a dealer and be sent to one. These rules can be found in your FFL guide State Laws. It is only applicable in 11 States that I can think of, but check the book to be sure about the one where your handgun is coming from.

[Jason_W]

A lot of dealers simply won't accept a firearm that is not shipped from an FFL holder. It is a fear thing, but can you really blame them? If I was a gun dealer, I certainly wouldn't want to open a box to find an illegal firearm.

[kimwcook]

I recently purchased a long arm, not a handgun, from an out of state individual and my FFL dealer gladly took receipt of it. Now, again it wasn't a handgun so I can't say if my dealer would of accepted a handgun.

[Nite Ryder]

You might ask your dealer (FFL Holder) how he feels about this. I personally won't buy a firearm from someone that insists on having someone else ship a gun to me. Too often the seller can say "I don't know what happened to the gun, I gave it to my dealer to ship". I've bought and I've sold many firrearms from the internet, I've never had a problem. Some people will tell you, you can only ship a handgun through UPS, that's not true (I called Ruger on this and they mumbled a bit and then agreed with me the handgun could be sent via the US Postal Service). You just have to follow postal rules (which have nothing to do with ATF rules) have your dealer fill out a postal form 1508, log the gun into his records and out to the buyers FFL holder. If a dealer tells you a firearm has to be shipped by another dealer, he is lying to you. If you are going to deal much in firearms, get a rule book from ATF, then you can prove to him and yourself he is lying..

NR

[Hobie]

A lot of dealers simply won't accept a firearm that is not shipped from an FFL holder. It is a fear thing, but can you really blame them? If I was a gun dealer, I certainly wouldn't want to open a box to find an illegal firearm.

The reason for that fear is the zero tolerance level of the ATF. My dealer just went through an inspection, well back in the first week in December. He is STILL going through the aftermath of that inspection and has to go 2½ hours away to have a meeting with the inspector's supervisor and detail what he's done to correct the discovered errors and prevent any re-occurrence. He had to close for one day during the inspection (during the Christmas rush) which may have cost him as much as $10,000 in sales. He's probably devoted 2-300 manhours to correcting discovered errors and looking for undiscovered errors (which will count as new errors on the next inspection). There's a tremendous financial incentive to avoid any questionable transfers and everyone has a different level of acceptable risk.

[Gun Smith]

Thanks guys, you all seem to be on the same track that I am on. I have done many sales/purchases over the years. The reson I asked is that I did a non-licensee (me) handgun sale to an out of state buyer and I did sent it directly to an FFL dealer. He accepted it then. I'll have a talk with the dealer I'm trying to use locally.

[Blaine]

A lot of dealers simply won't accept a firearm that is not shipped from an FFL holder. It is a fear thing, but can you really blame them? If I was a gun dealer, I certainly wouldn't want to open a box to find an illegal firearm.

The reason for that fear is the zero tolerance level of the ATF. My dealer just went through an inspection, well back in the first week in December. He is STILL going through the aftermath of that inspection and has to go 2½ hours away to have a meeting with the inspector's supervisor and detail what he's done to correct the discovered errors and prevent any re-occurrence. He had to close for one day during the inspection (during the Christmas rush) which may have cost him as much as $10,000 in sales. He's probably devoted 2-300 manhours to correcting discovered errors and looking for undiscovered errors (which will count as new errors on the next inspection). There's a tremendous financial incentive to avoid any questionable transfers and everyone has a different level of acceptable risk.

Frackken JBTs

[Pete44ru]

Be that as it may - whatever the receiving dealer's reason(s) for accepting delivery from another FFL only - It's his license, and his business, and if it were mine, I wouldn't let anybody else tell me how they wanted me to run my own business.

The FFL most likely won't like it either - and it shouldn't be held against him/her/etc.

How much would YOU like to be told how to set your own house in someone else's sense of order ?

It's a "free" country - If a business isn't conducted to my liking, then I'm free to do business elsewhere - and so are you.

.

[Ray Newman]

Hobie & Pete44RU: +1

[Blaine]

Pete, not the Dealer...the ATF....

[Gun Smith]

I talked to the my FFL dealer. He will not do a transfer directly to him by a unlicensed person. I contacted the seller and he will go to his FFL dealer to ship the guns to mine. It only cost me $25.00 for two guns, but the seller is paying the shipping charges. I will have to pay the receiving dealer another $20.00 (paperwork) for two guns. $45.00, just about a push, since I'm not stuck with the shipping charges too. Oh well.

[TooTech]

This is the FFL dealer welfare program. There is NO law requiring the seller to ship through an FFL. Just what is the seller's FFL going to do other than box up the gun and mail it?

Ask your dealer if HE ever buys guns from a non-FFL. If so, what's the difference?

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

This is the FFL dealer welfare program. There is NO law requiring the seller to ship through an FFL. Just what is the seller's FFL going to do other than box up the gun and mail it?

Ask your dealer if HE ever buys guns from a non-FFL. If so, what's the difference?

That is not intirely true. First, this only applies to guns that are going to a new owner in another state 9transfer of ownership), not repairs, warranty work or custom work where you will be receiving the same gun back. The ATF doesn't require a nonlicessee sender to be an FFL but some states like New York do. They require a nonlicensee sending a gun out of state to do it through an FFL in New york. You don't have to be an FFL to send a long gun from the post office either. But you do if it's a handgun. The commercial carriers have their own rules, too. Handguns go overnight, long guns should go ground. That's the rule but not all the counter folks know that. I know of one UPS sales rep that doesn't know that. He thinks all gun must go overnight even though his driver delivers ground shipped long guns to me almost daily.

I am an FFL and 99% of my business goes FedEx ground or USPS.

[Hobie]

Be that as it may - whatever the receiving dealer's reason(s) for accepting delivery from another FFL only - It's his license, and his business, and if it were mine, I wouldn't let anybody else tell me how they wanted me to run my own business.

The FFL most likely won't like it either - and it shouldn't be held against him/her/etc.

How much would YOU like to be told how to set your own house in someone else's sense of order ?

It's a "free" country - If a business isn't conducted to my liking, then I'm free to do business elsewhere - and so are you.

.

I agree with you on that.

[Hobie]

This is the FFL dealer welfare program. There is NO law requiring the seller to ship through an FFL. Just what is the seller's FFL going to do other than box up the gun and mail it?

Ask your dealer if HE ever buys guns from a non-FFL. If so, what's the difference?

My dealer DOES buy from non-dealers. They have to show the driver's license, he records the number as well as name and address (this has been true for EVERY dealer I EVER dealt with in VA), AND he makes them sign a statement that it is NOT a pawn and NOT stolen. He often can't do all that with an out-of-state guy even if that guy sends a copy of his drivers license.

BTW, in VA it is ILLEGAL to copy the driver's license. I know, I know, even government agencies do it but the FFL is NOT a government agency (at least not yet).

[bobbyjack]

I traded a Rem Rand for a S&W 1917 (equal trades) I sent mine UPS next day ,cost me 82.00 from OKLA to New York. The guy I traded with had a CRL and sent his pistol (same weight) Postal mail 32.00 !

I lost 50.00 in the trade because I didn't have a CRL licn.
We both insured them for 1600 !

I sent mine on a Friday he got it on a monday,he sent his on a tuesday I got it on a Friday(4 days for each of us)!

This is why handguns are so hard to sell ,unless you have an FFL or CRL it just costs so much for the average joe to ship off a handgun anymore!

You just need a copy(in my case my FFL faxed a copy of his FFL to the shipper) and he E-Mailed a copy of his CRL (I printed it out) and we went from there!

Bob

[El Guapo]

Good advice from Nate Kiowa Jones. In the 12 years I worked in the gun department of Cabela's, we always shipped from one FFL to another, long guns and handguns. Some FFL's try to gouge the customer on this. Look around and find someone in the $20-$25 range. And if "Too Tech" thinks it is dealer welfare, I suggest he jump thru all the hoops, pay the money, and get his own FFL. Not many FFL's are getting rich in this business.

[AJMD429]

I'm sure glad all these 'reasonable' rules are out there keeping us safe from crime...

[Old Time Hunter]

This is the FFL dealer welfare program. There is NO law requiring the seller to ship through an FFL. Just what is the seller's FFL going to do other than box up the gun and mail it?

Ask your dealer if HE ever buys guns from a non-FFL. If so, what's the difference?

As much as you can say this is not indicative of a FFL dealers intent, it is a vast majority of the reason. They are in business to make money and even if this is small potatoes money, it is money none the less. If one prompts the action on one end and they all stick together, another market is available to them. Personally I will not knowingly deal with FFL holders that contribute to this line of thought, then again the local ones here have never asked me. When I do have someone ship a gun (rifle or handgun) to me, I require their contact information including their drivers license (number or copy) and a signed statement that the article in question is not stolen or has been used in a crime to their knowledge faxed to me before it is shipped. Since I have a 03 FFL, I am limited to what I can receive, all others have to go thru my local 01 FFL (my neighbor).