1860 Army - first time!
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- Old Savage
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1860 Army - first time!
Well fellas, I finally took out the 1860 Army and the Goex. Had this pistol for quite a while but didn't know the specifics of shooting it. Rounded up the gear and kit and decided to do it. Well. First I didn't have a pistol measure but went with the amount that the TC powder flask threw. Light load maybe half a cylinder - shot 3" high at 18 yds. 454 ball and a lubed button. Then I tried a full cylinder and a ball and button - center of the bead, 3" lower that the last. Then, six in a cylinder loaded at about 85%, 4 3/4" group just firing them off at the same distance. This is the same as I did with my Ruger 357 Flat Top at the same distance a few minutes later. . Apparently this is what I do just shooting for sport now. Shots with both were evenly dispersed right to left on both. So very happy with the 1860. Shoots were it should. Only did 8 shots - I was surprised how little fouling there was. I will have to try the Crisco over ball system.
Now then floating on a cloud or in a 2003 Tacoma I headed home to clean up.
Wind - have some one hold your beer for the rest - you are new, don't want it on your keyboard. Well, I didn't know how to gently treat this item so I gingerly tapped out that wedge, piece of cake. Now, when Clint cleans his the barrel comes right off. Not so! Couldn't pull it off. Finally made the decision to use the ram (don't like to be rash since I decided I could stab that stick in my hand with my Model 51 Camillus which ended up in my hand.) Well that worked. I will skip a lot of this but I took apart everything I could nipples and all. Hope relubing everything with Bore Butter was ok, worked with the New Englander. Putting it back together after about two and a half hours - it wouldn't go back on - it did for Clint. Well I decided that "tapping" it back was the deal. It worked - was that right.
Now, I decided somewhere in the midst to take a burr or two of the frame. BUT, I put a tiny scratch on the frame - could hardly see it. No problem a little 44-40 blue and ------ well now, don't like that gaudy case coloring Pietta uses - no problem it will turn - your beer Wind - a nice blue flat gray. And since you were a little sloppy the blueing turn the brass gray. But you can rub that out a lot.
So this thing doesn't look at all like the gun I took out but - --- it is mine and I have shot black in my 1860 and it is particularly mine now.
Hope you guys had as much fun as I did today.
Now then floating on a cloud or in a 2003 Tacoma I headed home to clean up.
Wind - have some one hold your beer for the rest - you are new, don't want it on your keyboard. Well, I didn't know how to gently treat this item so I gingerly tapped out that wedge, piece of cake. Now, when Clint cleans his the barrel comes right off. Not so! Couldn't pull it off. Finally made the decision to use the ram (don't like to be rash since I decided I could stab that stick in my hand with my Model 51 Camillus which ended up in my hand.) Well that worked. I will skip a lot of this but I took apart everything I could nipples and all. Hope relubing everything with Bore Butter was ok, worked with the New Englander. Putting it back together after about two and a half hours - it wouldn't go back on - it did for Clint. Well I decided that "tapping" it back was the deal. It worked - was that right.
Now, I decided somewhere in the midst to take a burr or two of the frame. BUT, I put a tiny scratch on the frame - could hardly see it. No problem a little 44-40 blue and ------ well now, don't like that gaudy case coloring Pietta uses - no problem it will turn - your beer Wind - a nice blue flat gray. And since you were a little sloppy the blueing turn the brass gray. But you can rub that out a lot.
So this thing doesn't look at all like the gun I took out but - --- it is mine and I have shot black in my 1860 and it is particularly mine now.
Hope you guys had as much fun as I did today.
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
sounds like you did it just right.
careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
"BECAUSE I CAN"
"BECAUSE I CAN"
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Hey there Ol' Savage - Yes sirreee, sure do appreciate the warnings. Being an old salt, I have a gimbeled beer holder right beside the keyboard!! That whole preparedness thing. These are the times it does pay off. Those old smoky things are sure fun. I've got an old original 1860 Remington I dug out of the safe the other day and came close to lighting her off a few times. Have you considered a box of bandaids taped to your shooting kit. Maybe a cell phone holster stuffed with a suture kit and aspirin? Guns are dangerous. Sure glad you had a good day and it shot so well for you. I have run with scissors... Wind
- Ysabel Kid
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Congrats Fred - but you know better than to post a range report without pictures!!!
I think I may have made up for it though with the C&B post I just made!!!
I think I may have made up for it though with the C&B post I just made!!!
- Old Savage
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Thanks Y-Guy, saved my *** on that one. But the color case WAS like the gaudiest of yours - camera at the office - get pics later.
By the way, if you file off the color case on a Colt as I had to do with a ceramic stick to open up the loading gate area for a 44 SPL that would not allow ejection, it becomes silver metal but if you put Super Blue on it the same color comes back - couldn't tell the difference.
By the way, if you file off the color case on a Colt as I had to do with a ceramic stick to open up the loading gate area for a 44 SPL that would not allow ejection, it becomes silver metal but if you put Super Blue on it the same color comes back - couldn't tell the difference.
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Old Savage,
Hey I'm glad some other guy has luck like I have. I remember my first Marlin 39, I didn't know how to take it apart. I undid the takedown screw and she WOULDN'T come apart. So I begin gently tapping the barrel on something soft. NO RESULTS! So I hit it HARDER (GET A BIGGER HAMMER) and just as I tap it the MAG TUBE springs lose and I BENT THE MAG TUBE!!!!!!!!!! Had to order a new one! It's not MY fault!! HA
So I think you did great shooting your C&B. The only thing I'd do different is that if you KNOW you've got to clean it, shoot it until she binds up, then you MAXIMIZE the fun versus the cleaning chore!!
Well you are an inspiration. I might have to take out my Italian 1851 and touch her off a few times!!
WIND, REMEMBER I HAVE DUBS ON THAT ORIGINAL REMINGTON AND THE TRIPLE LOCK IF YOU EVER SELL THEM!!!!!!! AND REMEMBER I'M POOR, I REALLY AM, HAVE YOU SEEN APPLE PRICES THIS YEAR???
Geoff
Hey I'm glad some other guy has luck like I have. I remember my first Marlin 39, I didn't know how to take it apart. I undid the takedown screw and she WOULDN'T come apart. So I begin gently tapping the barrel on something soft. NO RESULTS! So I hit it HARDER (GET A BIGGER HAMMER) and just as I tap it the MAG TUBE springs lose and I BENT THE MAG TUBE!!!!!!!!!! Had to order a new one! It's not MY fault!! HA
So I think you did great shooting your C&B. The only thing I'd do different is that if you KNOW you've got to clean it, shoot it until she binds up, then you MAXIMIZE the fun versus the cleaning chore!!
Well you are an inspiration. I might have to take out my Italian 1851 and touch her off a few times!!
WIND, REMEMBER I HAVE DUBS ON THAT ORIGINAL REMINGTON AND THE TRIPLE LOCK IF YOU EVER SELL THEM!!!!!!! AND REMEMBER I'M POOR, I REALLY AM, HAVE YOU SEEN APPLE PRICES THIS YEAR???
Geoff
- Old Savage
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
I tried to take my 39 apart, I don't want to hit it any harder. I just banged it back together. And the little latch part on the mag tube bent when I let the mag plunger slip and fall back. Do thwy usually do that - seems like they should be stronger.
- Modoc ED
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Sounds like you had a good time Fred. Knowing where you live, I'd imagine that you don't have to drive far to go shooting.
Didn't Clint use a Remington?
Didn't Clint use a Remington?
- Old Savage
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Good question - he used a lot of various pistols.
25 Miles to shoot - good friend of mine owns the range, Tutt has been there.
25 Miles to shoot - good friend of mine owns the range, Tutt has been there.
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Thay are a lot of fun, Fred - I'm glad you got off to a good start.
You're gonna just LOVE, cleaning up the slime from the Crisco !
Here's my shortie 1860, in a box I deliberately made to look a tad home-made/cheesy:
.
You're gonna just LOVE, cleaning up the slime from the Crisco !
Here's my shortie 1860, in a box I deliberately made to look a tad home-made/cheesy:
.
Last edited by Pete44ru on Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Modoc ED
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Yep, Clint used a lot of weapons but in the movies where he was changing cylinders while walking, I'd think he was using Remingtons because he was pulling the cylinder pin to change the cylinders. He'd of had a heck of a time pulling a wedge as on the Colts.Old Savage wrote:Good question - he used a lot of various pistols.
25 Miles to shoot - good friend of mine owns the range, Tutt has been there.
Anyway, I'm glad you are finally enjoying the 1860.
- Old Savage
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Thanks Pete, maybe I will just stick with those expensive lubed buttons. Didn't someone here say they sprayed their gun with windex at the range while shooting?
- Modoc ED
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Windex WITH "Vinegar"!! Mike Venturino uses that to clean all his black powder guns. Sometimes it is hard to find but I usually get it a big grocery chains -- Safeway, etc..Old Savage wrote:Thanks Pete, maybe I will just stick with those expensive lubed buttons. Didn't someone here say they sprayed their gun with windex at the range while shooting?
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
well done on getting the pistol out doing what its made to do, make smoke and holes.
Mike Johnson,
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
- Ysabel Kid
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
I remember Clint changing cylinders in the movie "Pale Rider" as well, and yes, it was a Remington 1858 New Model Army. I don't recall reading about people actually doing this though back "in the day". I certainly doubt it with any of the Colt C&B revolvers. With the Remington you can remove drop the loading lever, remove the cylinder pin, and presto, out pops the cylinder. Swap in a fresh one, and you are good to go - though most articles I've read recommend that you cap the fresh cylinder AFTER it is in place.
The Colt C&B revolvers would require the shooter to pull the barrel wedge, take off the barrel, pull off the cylinder, then reverse the process. Much longer and more of a chance of dropping something. No way this was done on a moving horse - which is why many of them carried several extra loaded revolvers on their horse.
Fred, what I've done when the barrel won't come off the cylinder axis after removing the wedge, and giving it a good tap, is what the old timers used to do. Rotate the cylinder so the holes are NOT lined up with the ram rod, lower the ramrod on that bridge between the chambers, and use it as a lever. The barrel has no where to go but up, and usually if you just start it moving it will pull off freely.
The Colt C&B revolvers would require the shooter to pull the barrel wedge, take off the barrel, pull off the cylinder, then reverse the process. Much longer and more of a chance of dropping something. No way this was done on a moving horse - which is why many of them carried several extra loaded revolvers on their horse.
Fred, what I've done when the barrel won't come off the cylinder axis after removing the wedge, and giving it a good tap, is what the old timers used to do. Rotate the cylinder so the holes are NOT lined up with the ram rod, lower the ramrod on that bridge between the chambers, and use it as a lever. The barrel has no where to go but up, and usually if you just start it moving it will pull off freely.
- Old Savage
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Jay - that is what I did but I put something as a pad between the cylinder and the ram, still came off hard. But this was the first time around - see how it goes next time. It was fun and I was pleased with accuracy. They seem plenty strong for the loads. Looks like you can just fill the available space. Book says it gives 800 fps +/-.
It was important to me to have this one due to the family connection to the CW/WNA. If I get another it will be a Ruger stainless Old Army.
It was important to me to have this one due to the family connection to the CW/WNA. If I get another it will be a Ruger stainless Old Army.
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
At least the Stainless ROA kin be run through the dishwashing machine w/o any issues, Fred
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Come on fellers, just what is windex? A laxative maybe?
Nath.
Nath.
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
its window cleaner, glass cleaner... some of it comes with vinegar added to help keep it from streakingNath wrote:Come on fellers, just what is windex? A laxative maybe?
Nath.
WATCH YOUR TOP KNOT
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Well boys - If you run your new Ruger Old Army through the diswasher, do you just spray it down with Pam afterward and put it back in the safe? Watch yer top knots. Wind (Nath - Pam is a non-stick cooking spray; butter or olive oil flavor)
- Griff
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Fred,
Was that barrel hard to get off with the wedge COMPLETELY removed. I just pull mine out till it's "hook" catches on the screw, the barrel just pulls off by hand. But... I ain't ever left one on for anything approaching years!
I like just plain HOT water to clean... dry quickly then lube up to avoid the "flash" rust that'll follow. Nary a problem. And, yes, Crisco is a little messier... I just use "Bore Butter" for the over-bullet lube and assembly lube after cleaning.
Soon, you'll be as dedicated to your c&b as your leverguns!!!
Nath: Windex and Pam
Was that barrel hard to get off with the wedge COMPLETELY removed. I just pull mine out till it's "hook" catches on the screw, the barrel just pulls off by hand. But... I ain't ever left one on for anything approaching years!
I like just plain HOT water to clean... dry quickly then lube up to avoid the "flash" rust that'll follow. Nary a problem. And, yes, Crisco is a little messier... I just use "Bore Butter" for the over-bullet lube and assembly lube after cleaning.
Soon, you'll be as dedicated to your c&b as your leverguns!!!
Nath: Windex and Pam
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
- Ysabel Kid
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
It will be interesting to see if it loosens up a bit with use. Same reason I love the C&B revolvers - the connection to the CW/WNA.Old Savage wrote:Jay - that is what I did but I put something as a pad between the cylinder and the ram, still came off hard. But this was the first time around - see how it goes next time. It was fun and I was pleased with accuracy. They seem plenty strong for the loads. Looks like you can just fill the available space. Book says it gives 800 fps +/-.
It was important to me to have this one due to the family connection to the CW/WNA. If I get another it will be a Ruger stainless Old Army.
- Old Savage
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Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Cap and Ball guys may find this interesting or basic.
BLACK POWDER CAP AND BALL PRIMER
Copyright 2006 by Gatofeo of Utah. Used with permission.
So you have a new cap and ball revolver?
Here's how to wring the best accuracy from it. You’ll want to print this out, it’s long and will require frequent referral.
BORE SMOOTHING
Buy some JB Bore Compound or Iosso Bore cleaner. These are pastes, very mildly abrasive, designed to clean bores without harm. Put this paste on a patch that fits snugly and work it back and forth in the bore until the patch becomes a loose fit (usually six to 8 passes).
Do this at least a dozen times. This will remove factory preservatives and help smooth the bore somewhat.
If the chambers are rough, this may also be done but do so by hand. Resist the temptation to chuck your cleaning rod in a drill; you can too easily enlarge the chamber.
After the bore or chambers are smoothed, remove the paste with patches wet with Ronson lighter fluid. Lighter fluid evaporates without leaving behind deposits.
BLACK POWDER IS BEST
In my experience, FFFG black powder has been the most accurate propellant in .36 and .44-caliber revolvers. I've tried FFG and Pyrodex P and not found it as accurate.
GREASED WADS
Use Wonder Wads, as sold by Ox-Yoke, or punch your own wads from stiff felt. A 3/8 inch punch is perfect to create .36 caliber wads. Use a .45-caliber wad punch for the .44 revolvers. In metric, this would translate to about 9.5mm and 11.25mm wad punches.
Old cowboy hats are a good source of stiff felt. Look in thrift stores for old hats. Some hardware stores sell wool felt on a roll, for use as window insulation. Whatever the felt, it should be at least 1/16th of an inch thick and preferably 3/8 inch.
Don't use the felt sold in hobby shops, as it's too limp. Check the label on the felt, much of it is partly or wholly polyester (plastic) which will deposit melted plastic in your bore.
If you’d rather not bother, Wonder Wads are okay but do not use them as-is. In my experience, they lack sufficient lubricant to work properly. Soak the wads in melted lard, mutton tallow, bacon grease or any other natural (animal or plant) grease. Don’t use petroleum greases, they create a hard, tarry fouling when mixed with black powder.
BEST WAD LUBRICANT
The best wad lubricant I've found is listed in a 1943 American Rifleman magazine. It is made of:
1 part paraffin (I use canning paraffin, sold in grocery stores)
1 part mutton tallow (sold by Dixie Gun Works)
1/2 part beeswax (available in hardware stores as a toilet gasket)
All measurements are by weight, NOT volume.
I use a kitchen scale to measure 200/200/100 grams of ingredients, which will nearly fill a quart, wide mouth Mason jar.
With the jar filled, place it in three to four inches of boiling water (the safest way to melt greases and waxes) until all ingredients are thoroughly melted. Stir with a clean stick or disposable chopstick.
Allow the lubricant to cool at room temperature. Placing the jar in the refrigerator may cause the ingredients to separate. When the lubricant is cool and solid, screw the jar lid down tight and store it in a cool, dry place. This will keep dust and crud out and keep natural moistures in.
This lubricant is also excellent for other black powder applications: patch grease, lubricating fiber shotgun wads and as a bullet lubricant in muzzleloaders or cartridge guns.
In fact, it’s all I use. I no longer buy commercial black powder bullet lubricants such as SPG or Lyman Black Powder Gold. This recipe is as good or better and much cheaper.
PARAFFIN NOTES
Canning paraffin is the hard, translucent wax sold to melt and pour over preserves, such as jams and jellies. Use canning paraffin only. Who knows what’s in old candles, especially the scented variety? But if old candles are all you can find, use them.
Some sharp-eyed black powder shooters may see paraffin among the ingredients and gasp because paraffin is a petroleum product, and petroleum products cause hard, tarry fouling. However, a chemist told me that paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons of other petroleum products, which appears to be the offender.
The paraffin is necessary in this recipe because it stiffens the wad, which helps it scrape fouling from the bore.
MUTTON TALLOW
Sold by Dixie Gun Works in Tennessee, you may also find it if you live in sheep country. Mutton tallow makes a superior product. I’m told that unlike beef lard and other tallows, mutton tallow contains lanolin. I’m unsure about this, but it makes a difference in the lubricant.
TUNA CAN
For about 100 .36 or .44 caliber wads, melt two or three Tablespoons of lubricant in a clean tuna can at a low temperature. There's no need to cook the lubricant, just melt it. Add the wads. Stir them in the melted lubricant until thoroughly saturated. Cool at room temperature.
I carry the wads to the range in the same can, with a plastic pet-food lid snapped on. Store them in a cool, dry place with the lid snapped tightly.
USE A LOADING STAND
A loading stand that holds the revolver upright on the range table is best. It allows you to get a better "feel" for how much pressure you're applying to the wad and projectile. It also holds the revolver securely in an upright position if you need to interrupt the loading process.
LOADING PROCEDURE
Add a measured powder charge to each chamber.
I've found that 20 grs. of FFFG is a good starting load in my .36 caliber Colt Navy and Remington, and 30 grs. is good in the Remington and Colt .44 revolvers. For the 1862 Colt Pocket in .36-caliber, use 15 grains of FFFG.
Place a lubricated wad over the mouth of each charged chamber, then thumb-press the wad slightly below the mouth of the chamber. Now, seat each wad firmly onto the powder charge. Don't crush the powder; just seat the wad firmly against it.
There are good reasons for seating the wad separately. First, should you forget to add powder to the chamber, it's easier to remove a felt wad than a stuck ball. Secondly, this gives you a better feel for how much pressure you're applying. Thirdly, it makes it easier to seat the ball.
BALL SIZES
Use a .380 inch ball for the .36 caliber, and a .454 or .457 inch ball for the .44 revolvers (the Ruger Old Army requires a .457-inch ball).
I purchase .380 inch, sprueless balls from Warren Muzzleloading at http://www.ozonemountain.com so I don’t' have to deal with the sprue left from cast balls.
If you use cast balls, the sprue must be up and centered before ramming.
Many black powder manuals suggest .375 and .451 inch balls for these revolvers but they typically are not as accurate. The larger balls create a wider bearing surface for the rifling to grip, which aids accuracy.
CORN MEAL FILLER
For less than maximum loads, I sometimes use a little corn meal on top of the wad. Wipe it slightly below flush with your finger. Use corn meal; Cream of Wheat does not compress so it's not as forgiving if you add too much. The use of corn meal is not mandatory but for light loads it’s suggested.
BALL SEATING
With wads seated firmly on the powder in each chamber, it's time to seat the ball.
With the rammer, seat the ball firmly on the wad. The ball should be large enough that the chamber shaves a ring from it.
If you don't get a ring of lead, it may be that your chamber mouths are so chamfered that a ring is not cut, or that you need a larger ball.
Seat the ball firmly into the chamber. If the first ball takes too much pressure to push in below flush, add less corn meal to the other chambers.
The ball should be seated just slightly below flush of the chamber. If it is seated too far into the chamber, the ball has a long jump before it engages the rifling in the forcing cone. This long jump can affect accuracy.
The ball MUST be seated firmly onto the wad, or corn meal if you use it. There must be NO space between ball, wad, corn meal (if you use it) or powder. A space creates a dangerous condition that may markedly increase pressures.
By using a lubricated wad, grease over the ball is not usually needed. I live in the Utah desert where temperatures may get to 110 degrees Fahrenheit (43.5 Celsius) with less than 6 percent humidity. On such days, I've found it useful to add lubricant over the ball but these days are not frequent so I rarely do so.
The same lubricant as used for the wads may be smeared over the ball with a Popsicle stick, to avoid messy fingers.
CONICAL BULLETS
I’ve yet to find a conical bullet as accurate as a lead ball. The Lyman 37583 bullet, intended for the .38-55 rifle, is often used for .36 caliber revolvers but it’s hard to seat straight. This is a common problem with many conicals. They lack a rebated rim that will slip into the chamber and align the bullet before ramming.
The Lee and Buffalo Bullet designs have this rim but I still haven’t found them as accurate as a ball. Conical bullets must be lubricated before seating. The above lubricant works quite well, or you can use Crisco, Bore Butter or my favorite commercial lubricant, CVA Grease Patch.
PERCUSSION CAPS
With all balls seated firmly in the cylinder, it's time to cap the revolver. I like Remington No. 10 or 11 caps in my revolvers but use CCI on occasion. The Remingtons fit my revolvers' nipples better .
I can't tell you which size cap to use; you'll have to find that through trial and error on your nipples. The cap should fit snugly on the nipple, and "bottom out" so that the tiny bit of priming compound in the cap rests against the cone of the nipple. If it doesn't go down this far, use the larger cap.
If the cap is loose on the nipple, use the smaller cap.
Whichever cap you use, squeeze it into an oval shape so it clings to the nipple. This will keep it from falling off during recoil or handling.
SIGHTING NOTES
Use a standard 25-yard pistol target, at 25 yards, and a benchrest. The backing around the target should be out at least two feet in each direction, to reveal any stray shots. This is best done with a piece of large plywood, at least 3 feet square, with the surface covered by butcher paper and the target in the center.
Colt percussion revolvers, original and reproduction, almost always shoot high at 25 yards, as much as 12 inches above point of aim.
Most Remington replicas shoot low at 25 yards. This is good, because all you have to do is file down the front sight until point of aim. But file it down slowly, a lick or two at a time. If you file down too far, you'll have to replace the front sight.
But before you do any filing, find the most accurate load then adjust your sights to that load.
If the revolver hits above the point of aim, you can either add height to the front sight or file the sighting groove at the rear deeper. In Colt revolvers, this means filing a slightly deeper notch in the hammer nose but you typically can't get it much deeper without the frame blocking the view of your front sight.
Also, if you file a deeper notch in the hammer nose, you'll also need to widen the notch a bit to more easily see the brass bead front sight.
You may reach a point where the Remington's front sight cannot be filed down any farther, when the plane of the barrel interferes with sight picture. If this occurs, you'll just have to aim a little higher or lower, depending on what is needed.
Do NOT do any filing on an original revolver; you will reduce its monetary value.
AT THE BENCH
Grasp the revolver with two hands and let your hands rest on the sandbag or rolled blanket. If the revolver is placed on the rest, or touches it, you may experience flyers because the revolver doesn't recoil naturally if it contacts the rest.
Use Birchwood Casey Sight Black on your sights. This places a sooty surface on your sights and eliminates glare, which is especially bad with the brass bead on Colt front sights. A lit candle stub will place soot on the sights too. BUT keep that flame well-away from all powder and caps. Obviously, don't do this with a loaded cylinder in the revolver!
Bring a small notebook with you and note the load, type of powder, type of projectile, size of projectile (.375 or .380 inch?), caps, weather, wind, distance and whatever else you deem important. This will save you a lot of duplication and help you find that perfect load sooner.
USE PROTECTION
Use ear and eye protection when shooting percussion revolvers. Cap fragments can fly off and most revolvers are very loud. If your club denies you the use of eye and ear protection in order to preserve Western authenticity, find another club. Your sight and hearing are not worth their petty aesthetics.
FINAL WORDS
I’ve been shooting cap and ball revolvers for nearly 35 years. It took me that long to learn or stumble across the above. Print this out and file it away for future reference. What I’ve related is not an absolute; it is intended as a guide. Each gun, like its shooter, is an individual and has particular likes and dislikes.
Happy shooting!
BLACK POWDER CAP AND BALL PRIMER
Copyright 2006 by Gatofeo of Utah. Used with permission.
So you have a new cap and ball revolver?
Here's how to wring the best accuracy from it. You’ll want to print this out, it’s long and will require frequent referral.
BORE SMOOTHING
Buy some JB Bore Compound or Iosso Bore cleaner. These are pastes, very mildly abrasive, designed to clean bores without harm. Put this paste on a patch that fits snugly and work it back and forth in the bore until the patch becomes a loose fit (usually six to 8 passes).
Do this at least a dozen times. This will remove factory preservatives and help smooth the bore somewhat.
If the chambers are rough, this may also be done but do so by hand. Resist the temptation to chuck your cleaning rod in a drill; you can too easily enlarge the chamber.
After the bore or chambers are smoothed, remove the paste with patches wet with Ronson lighter fluid. Lighter fluid evaporates without leaving behind deposits.
BLACK POWDER IS BEST
In my experience, FFFG black powder has been the most accurate propellant in .36 and .44-caliber revolvers. I've tried FFG and Pyrodex P and not found it as accurate.
GREASED WADS
Use Wonder Wads, as sold by Ox-Yoke, or punch your own wads from stiff felt. A 3/8 inch punch is perfect to create .36 caliber wads. Use a .45-caliber wad punch for the .44 revolvers. In metric, this would translate to about 9.5mm and 11.25mm wad punches.
Old cowboy hats are a good source of stiff felt. Look in thrift stores for old hats. Some hardware stores sell wool felt on a roll, for use as window insulation. Whatever the felt, it should be at least 1/16th of an inch thick and preferably 3/8 inch.
Don't use the felt sold in hobby shops, as it's too limp. Check the label on the felt, much of it is partly or wholly polyester (plastic) which will deposit melted plastic in your bore.
If you’d rather not bother, Wonder Wads are okay but do not use them as-is. In my experience, they lack sufficient lubricant to work properly. Soak the wads in melted lard, mutton tallow, bacon grease or any other natural (animal or plant) grease. Don’t use petroleum greases, they create a hard, tarry fouling when mixed with black powder.
BEST WAD LUBRICANT
The best wad lubricant I've found is listed in a 1943 American Rifleman magazine. It is made of:
1 part paraffin (I use canning paraffin, sold in grocery stores)
1 part mutton tallow (sold by Dixie Gun Works)
1/2 part beeswax (available in hardware stores as a toilet gasket)
All measurements are by weight, NOT volume.
I use a kitchen scale to measure 200/200/100 grams of ingredients, which will nearly fill a quart, wide mouth Mason jar.
With the jar filled, place it in three to four inches of boiling water (the safest way to melt greases and waxes) until all ingredients are thoroughly melted. Stir with a clean stick or disposable chopstick.
Allow the lubricant to cool at room temperature. Placing the jar in the refrigerator may cause the ingredients to separate. When the lubricant is cool and solid, screw the jar lid down tight and store it in a cool, dry place. This will keep dust and crud out and keep natural moistures in.
This lubricant is also excellent for other black powder applications: patch grease, lubricating fiber shotgun wads and as a bullet lubricant in muzzleloaders or cartridge guns.
In fact, it’s all I use. I no longer buy commercial black powder bullet lubricants such as SPG or Lyman Black Powder Gold. This recipe is as good or better and much cheaper.
PARAFFIN NOTES
Canning paraffin is the hard, translucent wax sold to melt and pour over preserves, such as jams and jellies. Use canning paraffin only. Who knows what’s in old candles, especially the scented variety? But if old candles are all you can find, use them.
Some sharp-eyed black powder shooters may see paraffin among the ingredients and gasp because paraffin is a petroleum product, and petroleum products cause hard, tarry fouling. However, a chemist told me that paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons of other petroleum products, which appears to be the offender.
The paraffin is necessary in this recipe because it stiffens the wad, which helps it scrape fouling from the bore.
MUTTON TALLOW
Sold by Dixie Gun Works in Tennessee, you may also find it if you live in sheep country. Mutton tallow makes a superior product. I’m told that unlike beef lard and other tallows, mutton tallow contains lanolin. I’m unsure about this, but it makes a difference in the lubricant.
TUNA CAN
For about 100 .36 or .44 caliber wads, melt two or three Tablespoons of lubricant in a clean tuna can at a low temperature. There's no need to cook the lubricant, just melt it. Add the wads. Stir them in the melted lubricant until thoroughly saturated. Cool at room temperature.
I carry the wads to the range in the same can, with a plastic pet-food lid snapped on. Store them in a cool, dry place with the lid snapped tightly.
USE A LOADING STAND
A loading stand that holds the revolver upright on the range table is best. It allows you to get a better "feel" for how much pressure you're applying to the wad and projectile. It also holds the revolver securely in an upright position if you need to interrupt the loading process.
LOADING PROCEDURE
Add a measured powder charge to each chamber.
I've found that 20 grs. of FFFG is a good starting load in my .36 caliber Colt Navy and Remington, and 30 grs. is good in the Remington and Colt .44 revolvers. For the 1862 Colt Pocket in .36-caliber, use 15 grains of FFFG.
Place a lubricated wad over the mouth of each charged chamber, then thumb-press the wad slightly below the mouth of the chamber. Now, seat each wad firmly onto the powder charge. Don't crush the powder; just seat the wad firmly against it.
There are good reasons for seating the wad separately. First, should you forget to add powder to the chamber, it's easier to remove a felt wad than a stuck ball. Secondly, this gives you a better feel for how much pressure you're applying. Thirdly, it makes it easier to seat the ball.
BALL SIZES
Use a .380 inch ball for the .36 caliber, and a .454 or .457 inch ball for the .44 revolvers (the Ruger Old Army requires a .457-inch ball).
I purchase .380 inch, sprueless balls from Warren Muzzleloading at http://www.ozonemountain.com so I don’t' have to deal with the sprue left from cast balls.
If you use cast balls, the sprue must be up and centered before ramming.
Many black powder manuals suggest .375 and .451 inch balls for these revolvers but they typically are not as accurate. The larger balls create a wider bearing surface for the rifling to grip, which aids accuracy.
CORN MEAL FILLER
For less than maximum loads, I sometimes use a little corn meal on top of the wad. Wipe it slightly below flush with your finger. Use corn meal; Cream of Wheat does not compress so it's not as forgiving if you add too much. The use of corn meal is not mandatory but for light loads it’s suggested.
BALL SEATING
With wads seated firmly on the powder in each chamber, it's time to seat the ball.
With the rammer, seat the ball firmly on the wad. The ball should be large enough that the chamber shaves a ring from it.
If you don't get a ring of lead, it may be that your chamber mouths are so chamfered that a ring is not cut, or that you need a larger ball.
Seat the ball firmly into the chamber. If the first ball takes too much pressure to push in below flush, add less corn meal to the other chambers.
The ball should be seated just slightly below flush of the chamber. If it is seated too far into the chamber, the ball has a long jump before it engages the rifling in the forcing cone. This long jump can affect accuracy.
The ball MUST be seated firmly onto the wad, or corn meal if you use it. There must be NO space between ball, wad, corn meal (if you use it) or powder. A space creates a dangerous condition that may markedly increase pressures.
By using a lubricated wad, grease over the ball is not usually needed. I live in the Utah desert where temperatures may get to 110 degrees Fahrenheit (43.5 Celsius) with less than 6 percent humidity. On such days, I've found it useful to add lubricant over the ball but these days are not frequent so I rarely do so.
The same lubricant as used for the wads may be smeared over the ball with a Popsicle stick, to avoid messy fingers.
CONICAL BULLETS
I’ve yet to find a conical bullet as accurate as a lead ball. The Lyman 37583 bullet, intended for the .38-55 rifle, is often used for .36 caliber revolvers but it’s hard to seat straight. This is a common problem with many conicals. They lack a rebated rim that will slip into the chamber and align the bullet before ramming.
The Lee and Buffalo Bullet designs have this rim but I still haven’t found them as accurate as a ball. Conical bullets must be lubricated before seating. The above lubricant works quite well, or you can use Crisco, Bore Butter or my favorite commercial lubricant, CVA Grease Patch.
PERCUSSION CAPS
With all balls seated firmly in the cylinder, it's time to cap the revolver. I like Remington No. 10 or 11 caps in my revolvers but use CCI on occasion. The Remingtons fit my revolvers' nipples better .
I can't tell you which size cap to use; you'll have to find that through trial and error on your nipples. The cap should fit snugly on the nipple, and "bottom out" so that the tiny bit of priming compound in the cap rests against the cone of the nipple. If it doesn't go down this far, use the larger cap.
If the cap is loose on the nipple, use the smaller cap.
Whichever cap you use, squeeze it into an oval shape so it clings to the nipple. This will keep it from falling off during recoil or handling.
SIGHTING NOTES
Use a standard 25-yard pistol target, at 25 yards, and a benchrest. The backing around the target should be out at least two feet in each direction, to reveal any stray shots. This is best done with a piece of large plywood, at least 3 feet square, with the surface covered by butcher paper and the target in the center.
Colt percussion revolvers, original and reproduction, almost always shoot high at 25 yards, as much as 12 inches above point of aim.
Most Remington replicas shoot low at 25 yards. This is good, because all you have to do is file down the front sight until point of aim. But file it down slowly, a lick or two at a time. If you file down too far, you'll have to replace the front sight.
But before you do any filing, find the most accurate load then adjust your sights to that load.
If the revolver hits above the point of aim, you can either add height to the front sight or file the sighting groove at the rear deeper. In Colt revolvers, this means filing a slightly deeper notch in the hammer nose but you typically can't get it much deeper without the frame blocking the view of your front sight.
Also, if you file a deeper notch in the hammer nose, you'll also need to widen the notch a bit to more easily see the brass bead front sight.
You may reach a point where the Remington's front sight cannot be filed down any farther, when the plane of the barrel interferes with sight picture. If this occurs, you'll just have to aim a little higher or lower, depending on what is needed.
Do NOT do any filing on an original revolver; you will reduce its monetary value.
AT THE BENCH
Grasp the revolver with two hands and let your hands rest on the sandbag or rolled blanket. If the revolver is placed on the rest, or touches it, you may experience flyers because the revolver doesn't recoil naturally if it contacts the rest.
Use Birchwood Casey Sight Black on your sights. This places a sooty surface on your sights and eliminates glare, which is especially bad with the brass bead on Colt front sights. A lit candle stub will place soot on the sights too. BUT keep that flame well-away from all powder and caps. Obviously, don't do this with a loaded cylinder in the revolver!
Bring a small notebook with you and note the load, type of powder, type of projectile, size of projectile (.375 or .380 inch?), caps, weather, wind, distance and whatever else you deem important. This will save you a lot of duplication and help you find that perfect load sooner.
USE PROTECTION
Use ear and eye protection when shooting percussion revolvers. Cap fragments can fly off and most revolvers are very loud. If your club denies you the use of eye and ear protection in order to preserve Western authenticity, find another club. Your sight and hearing are not worth their petty aesthetics.
FINAL WORDS
I’ve been shooting cap and ball revolvers for nearly 35 years. It took me that long to learn or stumble across the above. Print this out and file it away for future reference. What I’ve related is not an absolute; it is intended as a guide. Each gun, like its shooter, is an individual and has particular likes and dislikes.
Happy shooting!
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16793
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Here is more by this fellow if you are interested in what he has to say.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=65820
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=65820
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Thanks Old Savage,
I will print that off and file away for future use! You know how we get INTO different things at different times! I havn't really been around C&B revolver very much so I have MUCH to learn. Also got an old British percussion double barrel shotgun, probably from the 1870's or 1880's or so, that is fun to shoot too. When ever I take that stuff out I have questions pop up that I hadn't thought of before!
Thanks!
Geoff
I will print that off and file away for future use! You know how we get INTO different things at different times! I havn't really been around C&B revolver very much so I have MUCH to learn. Also got an old British percussion double barrel shotgun, probably from the 1870's or 1880's or so, that is fun to shoot too. When ever I take that stuff out I have questions pop up that I hadn't thought of before!
Thanks!
Geoff
- Griff
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- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Very good OS. Just about mirrors my experiences with c&b revolvers. I haven't bothered with lapping the bore or the cylinder... in the Colts they're very good, "as is"... and the ASM was around and shot a lot before I ever heard of doin' it in a c&b revolver. Follow that advice and I don't see how you can go wrong.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16793
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Griff, he goes a little further with the cleaning than I think I am willing to do. I took a Qtip and poked it in everywhere I could today with no black coming out on it. I took it all apart and ran the cylinder and barrel assembly under hot water and cleaned the barrel with TC No 13 until it looked clean. Then ran some Bore Butter in it about a half a dozen times on patches. I also removed the ram assembly and cleaned in there. Dried it all and coated everything with Bore Butter. I cleaned the frame and hammer with #13. I also removed the nipples and cleaned the cylinder with #13 and coated with Bore Butter and reassembled it all. I will probably spray it all with windex next time as a start. I reblued the frame by mistake but I like the muted blue gray better than Pietta's version of the color case. I will do some more of that next time and see what comes up. I appreciate everyone's help and interest.
- Griff
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Like I said... I just use hot water... big improvement in dissolving the residue over what they generally had available in the 19th century... which was cold water... seein' how many survived in working condition thru to today, I gotta say, good enough.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16793
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Griff, missed one of your questions - yes the barrel wouldn't budge by hand after the wedge was removed - used the ram, padding the cylinder, to remove it. It was hard to get back on. I had to use a plastic mallet. Lube the big center rod with bore butter.
Re: 1860 Army - first time!
Old Savage, you might try .457" RBs in your 1860 Army.......you may get better accuracy. jd45