OT - 500 S&W vs. Beowulf

[AJMD429]

I've always hoped to see a .500 S&W levergun come into production, as a really big-bore levergun with a shorter throw than the .45-70, which could pack a really POTENT punch, yet 'light' loads deliver 500+ grains at 1,000 fps. Alas, I may have to settle for the used Handi-Rifle I just got (scraped scope mount from mount slippage, and broken firesight, hmmm.... ).

Looks like something slipped...!



Anyway, I was thinking how a levergun would be so much more 'firepower' than the single-shot Handi-Rifle, when I realized the .50 Beowulf (alas, not a lever either, but a semiauto ) is basically the same case, same bullets, and same ballistics.

Here's the cartridges side by side...



I'd still rather go to a levergun than a semiautomatic, although I'm not sure why, other than the vague notion of 'aesthetics'...

[TedH]

I agree, a 500 S&W would be one heck of a levergun if someone could build it.

[Streetstar]

Will either one of these out perform the 45/70 or .444 Marlin ?

[cas]

I'm not trying to point you one way or the others, but having shot the Handi Rifle in 45-70, I sure wouldn't want one in 500 S&W.

The 50 Beowulf was by far the most fun AR upper I ever owned.

[rjohns94]

now I want one of those beowulfs!!!Enablers, every one of you.

[nemhed]

I don't own one, but I have spent quite a bit of range time with one of the mini-fifty AR's and they are really high on the fun factor and the recoil is merely a shove. IIRC these also fall in the legal cartridge size range for deer here in Indiana. For some reason, I've seen a lot of used Handi-Rifles for sale in 500 S&W. I've heard of "problems" with the action unlocking on firing, it could also be the recoil is just too brutal for people. What better excuse for buying a Beowulf than it makes your "black" rifle into your "deer" rifle.

[AJMD429]

Here are some very sketchy averages (rounded to the nearest 25 fps) I got from browsing 5 reloading manuals, and another 4 or 5 internet sites, plus a few threads from Leverguns. I didn’t really set out to “prove” any one cartridge was ‘better’ than the others, because I think anything I’d ever shoot with any of them (if I hit it!) would not be able to detect the difference. Of course there isn’t much “rifle” data for the .454 Casull, and the .45-70 has been around so long there is lots of data for it, but it is sort of ‘polluted’ at the extremes (perhaps demonstrating the inherent strengths of the round, or just the inherent nature of man to push limits if given time), due to ‘old gun’ data, and really hotrodded “Ruger Only” data. On the other hand, the .500 S&W has a lot less data, and it likewise is mostly handgun data, but is at least all to the same pressure specs. The poor Beowulf has the least data, due to being so new, and pretty much an AR-platform specialty round. Nonetheless, it IS a ‘thumper’ - especially when you consider that it is a semiautomatic.

Interestingly, the .500 S&W and the .45-70 were the ones with the widest range of bullet weights easily found.

Here are a couple pages with some visual and graphic comparisons (with again the above limitations):

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/aicompare. ... l=1&xxa=38

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/bcompare.c ... 43|221|38|


I like the shorter cases as far as their potential for leverguns, but the .454 has been a stretch (perhaps literally) in the Puma 92's, and with the high pressure and larger diameter of the .500 S&W, it doesn’t look good for a SHORT lever action platform to get much above the .44 Mag/.45 Colt+P power level (which really IS a lot of power for a carbine) unless some manufacturer does a re-design (Hello Savage? Ruger?). Still the short & fat rounds are fun to play with.

In the long actions, choosing between the .444 Marlin and .45-70 Govt is about like the .44 Mag vs. .45 Colt ‘dilemma’ - I like both.

I suppose the bottom line is that for my ‘short action’ I like the .44 Mag and therefore the .444 Marlin to be a same-diameter-bullet ‘companion’ in the long action levergun. Obviously its long history and pioneers willing to push its limits have allowed the .45-70 to remain ‘King’ of the long action leverguns available commercially, and I won’t be selling my Guide Gun anytime soon, nor .45 Colt.

I’d still like a short/long pair in .500 S&W and .50 Alaskan , or if they had to size up the carbine too much weight-wise, I could see a .500 S&W levergun as heavy as a Guide Gun, but maybe a little shorter, as a really good “all-around” gun. Maybe even make it box-magazine fed like the Savage & Rugers, and replace the magazine tube with a single shot .22LR to make the ultimate ‘survival’ gun.

Here's what I REALLY would like in a levergun...http://www.2-bore.com/

[AJMD429]

now I want one of those beowulfs!!!Enablers, every one of you.

Here is where to an 'Entry' model - http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0018846225733a.shtml - $749 now

Gunblast review of the .50 Beowulf Entry model - http://www.gunblast.com/50Beowulf.htm

Gunblast review of the Overwatch model - http://www.gunblast.com/Alex_Overwatch.htm

Defense Review of the .50 Beowulf Entry model - http://defensereview.com/modules.php?na ... le&sid=354

Cool video of a .50 Beowulf in use - http://www.50beowulf.com/

[AJMD429]

IIRC these also fall in the legal cartridge size range for deer here in Indiana.

Actually, the case length cannot exceet 1.625 (.500 S&W, conveniently, enough), and the Beowulf is 1.650; The .450 Bushmaster is even longer (1.703), but the .458 SOCOM is 1.575 so is deer legal in Indiana. With a 300 grain bullet at 1900 fps or a 500 grain bullet at 900 fps, the 'little' .458 SOCOM is probably a fine deer cartridge, although the .50 Beowulf can heave the 500 grainer at 1300 fps or so, for those really BIG bucks...

.458 Socom vs. .50 Beowulf - not really too different though, overall...
http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/bcompare.c ... 0|335|662|

For some reason, I've seen a lot of used Handi-Rifles for sale in 500 S&W. I've heard of "problems" with the action unlocking on firing, it could also be the recoil is just too brutal for people.

I think they fixed the action unlocking thing, and mine seems very solid, but I'll bet some people have shot them with their thumb up on the release and recoil unlocked them. The one I found was cheap because the firesight fiber was broken and the scope rail looked like recoil had moved the scope foreward (perhaps it was dropped or hit someone's forehead). Having shot 'big' guns before, I braced and found the recoil of the Handi-rifle not at all bad, but I'm sure if a person didn't brace up they'd dislike it. The Beowulf I shot didn't seem to recoil any more than the .223 when in an AR to me; I think the whole "AR" thing with me is that all that spring-in-stock noise and clanking and muzzle blast with EITHER cartridge is rather annoying. Maybe I just don't like EBR's as much as leverguns.

[Streetstar]

Well AJ, that was a ton of information In your impromptu "shootout" -- it looks like the .444 is the king as far as velocity, and the 45/70 definitely not a slouch after all these years with the right loads. , i am kind of shocked the big pistol calibers are so close though. I have seen fellas at the range with the big .500's foolin' around and i would not personally want to touch one off --- well, maybe just a few times But i guess the Beowulf is not really a pistol caliber, but rather an AR caliber. Plus it has a cool name, kind of like the 6.5 Grendel

When you factor in the increased power factor of a bullet with a broader profile, things would get interesting. I am with you though - i won't be trading in my 45-70 for one of these anytime soon, but that Beowulf model would be fun. The .450 Bushmaster is also a strong little cartridge

[cas]

The Handi Rifle is just a bad design for recoil. My dad bought one in 45-70 last year, I added a BIG thick Kick-Eez pad and a mercury recoil reducer, and it's still no fun to shoot. I finally came up with a heavy bullet load, going fairly slow, that he was able to shoot comfortably. "Regular" loads were just no fun. The loads I regularly shoot in my cut down at both ends Marlin, were BRUTAL in the Handi Rifle. Even the load I shoot in my 12" Contender PISTOL, was objectionable in the HR.

[shawn_c992001]

I think reloading dies can be used for either 50 Beowulf and .500S&W I use my Beowulf dies for 500 Smith which is an Encore barrel.