Black powder cartridge question

[Otto]

I want to try some BP in my Vaquero 45. I'll be using 40 grains of FFFg and a 200 grain cowboy bullet from Missouri Bullet Co. Do I need to use a patch in the case, or some sort of lubricant other than what's on the bullet? Also, do I need to fill the case, or compress the charge? I've shot percussion pistols before, but back then I just filled the cylinder to the rim, seated the ball on top, and added a grease-like substance, Bore Butter I think.

[Buffboy]

Make sure there is a black powder lube on the bullets or you're gonna be hating life when it comes time to clean. Normal smokeless lubes leave a crust with black or pyrodex that has to be some form of plating.

You can put a card wad under the bullet but you really don't need to, unless you're planning on a LOT of compression. The card wad is usually put in to keep from damaging the bullet base in heavy compression. You always want at least a little compression(airspace with black is bad).

[helmtoad]

First off i wouldn't use black powder. I'd use the 3F equivalent american pioneer powder. It's not as dangerous, it's not near as dirty, you don't have to lube the bullets, it has 10 times the shelf life in a loaded cartridge. I gave up true black powder five years ago. the only bp i use is the 4F priming powder for the pan in my flintlock. I even load my flinters with american pioneer. The bigest advantage is NO CORROSION! Cases should be full/compressed. You can take up the extra space with dacron batting.

[kimwcook]

I'd start with a full dose of black, no wad, little to no compression and seat the properly blackpowder lubed bullet and crimp. NO AIRSPACE! Shoot'em and see how they do. If they're good to go like that, then you have your recipe. If not, compress the load a little and see how they do. You've got different grade and brand of powders to try, primers, etc... Most modern cast bullets are designed around smokeless so they don't have big enough grease grooves to hold enough lube for shooting black. You'll just have to play around with that. Most of the time the bullet isn't used to compress the powder, it could possibly deform the nose or base. But with a pistol round you're not going to be compressing like you would a full size rifle cartridge. You could try the bullet method or you could just use a properly sized wooden dowel. Or if you don't mind the expense you could buy a compression plug. Buffalo Arms sells them. Good luck.

[Otto]

These are going to be loaded in small numbers and shot within a day or two, so shelf life isn't important. Also, this is just something I will do once in a while for kicks. I got rid of my percussion revolvers because I got sick of the mess. I also found out the hard way not to wait til tomorrow to clean up, and thoroughly.
I tried Pyrodex, but found it to be only slightly less messy, but very unreliable. I had six consecutive misfires in an 1860 "Colt," where the cap pushed the ball into the forcing cone, which meant I had to disassemble the gun, push the ball out, re-assemble and try again. That was the last time I shot percussion.


How do I add lube to the bullet? Would that Alox stuff work?

[Doc Hudson]

I don't use any blackpowder substitute. If I don't use blackpowder, I use smokeless. I've yet to encounter a blackpowder substitute that didn't stink. Personally I love the smell of blackpowder. I also doubt the claims that a substitute will last longer in a blackpowder cartridge than the real black stuff. After all, Paco Kelly killed a black bear with an 85 year-old .45 Short Colt Cartridge back in the 1960's, and I've known of cannon that had been loaded since 1865 to go off with great authority, also in the 1960's. And last year, a collector or War Between the States artillery projectiles was killed when a shell exploded while he was cleaning it. And a very few years ago, I fired a GI Surplus .45-70 cartridge loaded with a 750 grain metal cased bullet (allegedly for use in a GatlingGun), it was well over 100 years old, it kicked like a mule

I seriously doubt that any blackpowder substitute will be any more stable, if as stable, than real blackpowder.

If blackpowder is dry, it will detonate. If blackpowder is properly loaded, it will stay dry. I once spent an hour in the Tallapoosa River with my M-1851 Colt Navy Model on my hip, all chambers fired later in the afternoon. If blackpowder does get damp, when it dries, it will still fire.

I always used cardboard wads over the powder when I loaded for my old Rolling Block. The reason was not to protect the bullet bases during loading, but to protect the bases from the powder gases at the time of firing. If you use hard cast bullets, you might be able to dispense with the wads on that account, but if you are using soft lead bullets, use a wad.

Another alternative that some folks have told me they use is to make a "cookie" of lube to place between the powder and bullet base. According to them, this little dab of lube keeps the fouling softer and easier to clear from the bore. I've not used this method, but some folks who really know their stuff about blackpowder cartridges swear by them. To make the "cookies," melt some blackpowder lube (I highly recommend John Erdmann's Montana Gold Lube) and pour a very thin layer onto the bottom of a plate or disposable aluminum pan and allow to set in a very thin layer. Then use either a wad punch or a cartridge case to cut out caliber sized circles of the lube. These things are rather delicate, so carefully place the lube "cookie" over the powder and seat your bullet.

One more thing, don't bet on getting 40 grains of the black stuff in a .45 LC case. The old original 40 grain load was put into balloon-head cases that had a bit more volume than the modern solid head cases. Don't overfill your cases. Overfilling will cause the powder grains to be crushed to a smaller size and might cause inconsistent pressure which would hurt your accuracy. Ideally, a blackpowder cartridge load is compressed by about 1/8-inch, so you will need to experiment to see how much powder your cases will hold without too much compression.

I probably don't need to tell you, but I'm going to say it anyway, just in case. Use a good hard crimp on your blackpowder cartridges. Since they are compressed loads, you need a heavy crimp to make sure the charge doesn't decompress and push your bullet out of the case. Laugh if you wish, but no one made this point to me when I started loading blackpowder cartridges, and I loaded them just like I did for any other rifle, i.e. just enough crimp to smooth out the bell. As a result, I had several bullets to stay in the cartridge box when I lifted them out to load my rifle. Learn from my mistakes, you might not be as lucky as I was to have the range to myself the day it happened.

[kimwcook]

Adding lube to the bullet is fairly easy. You said you're only going to be shooting a few, so you could just lube'em up with your fingers. Or get a small pan, place your bullets in it base down, nose up. Put in enough lube to cover your grease grooves and heat the pan to warm. Allowing the lube to settle into the grooves, take the pan off the stove and let it cool. You can usually just pick the bullets straight up and the lube will stay in the grooves. It takes a little experimenting, but it's not rocket science.

[J Miller]

My success at loading black powder cartridges is dismal at best. I always seem to do something wrong. However, they always fire.
Not to mention the fact I have a number of 100 + year old factory loaded black powder cartridges that are quite live.
I simply do not worry about shelf life.

Joe

[Otto]

Adding lube to the bullet is fairly easy. You said you're only going to be shooting a few, so you could just lube'em up with your fingers. Or get a small pan, place your bullets in it base down, nose up. Put in enough lube to cover your grease grooves and heat the pan to warm. Allowing the lube to settle into the grooves, take the pan off the stove and let it cool. You can usually just pick the bullets straight up and the lube will stay in the grooves. It takes a little experimenting, but it's not rocket science.

These are store-bought bullets, so the only grease groove already is full of whatever the company put into it. Now don't laugh, but could I just smear some Bore Butter on the nose of the bullet before firing?

[J Miller]

Otto,

Your profile does not say where you are, but if' you're anywhere near central IL I have almost a 100 loaded black powder cartridges we could shoot up.

Joe

[Otto]

No, I live in east-central Ohio, but thanks for the kind offer!

[Hobie]

Adding lube to the bullet is fairly easy. You said you're only going to be shooting a few, so you could just lube'em up with your fingers. Or get a small pan, place your bullets in it base down, nose up. Put in enough lube to cover your grease grooves and heat the pan to warm. Allowing the lube to settle into the grooves, take the pan off the stove and let it cool. You can usually just pick the bullets straight up and the lube will stay in the grooves. It takes a little experimenting, but it's not rocket science.

These are store-bought bullets, so the only grease groove already is full of whatever the company put into it. Now don't laugh, but could I just smear some Bore Butter on the nose of the bullet before firing?

I wouldn't. I don't know what formula lube those bullets already have but if it has any petroleum based product in it you'll regret it.

Unless your life is at risk, I'm a strong believer in the adage whatever is worth doing is worth doing right.

[Otto]

Unless your life is at risk, I'm a strong believer in the adage whatever is worth doing is worth doing right.

Hence my numerous questions.

[kimwcook]

You won't be able to get enough lube to do you any good by just lubing the exterior. Plus, it'll be a real mess and if the bullets lay around a little they'll pick up dirt. Then when you shoot them they'll be lapping your bbl. Bad joojoo. I'd just order some cast bullets with the blackpowder lube already in them. They aren't that spendy and you said you don't plan on shooting a ton of them. Or order some straight blackpowder bullets and lube them yourself. But I'd say no to just exterior lube.

Plus you don't want hard cast. You'll want something a bit softer so It'll upset enough to seal in the bbl. Do a google search and you should find some good blackpowder bullets. Or, someone on here will give you a site to go to.

[Otto]

Well, the bullets I have are advertised as having a BHN of 12, and marketed specifically for cowboy action shooting. I just sent an e-mail to the company asking about their use with black powder. Once I get their answer I will go from there.

Thanks for all the input so far, guys.

[Otto]

They said no.

[Griff]

You could used Doc's method of a grease cookie under the bullet... but, you'll want two wads per case, one on top of the powder, the lube and the second card to protect the base of the bullet and make sure the lube don't stick and make for an erratic flight path! OR... you could order the bullets sans lube from a variety of sources and lube 'em up the way Kim described. Or, as a last ditch effort, heat the bullets on a flat plan with aluminum foil coverin' momma's nice cookie sheet and melt off the smokeless lube and then relube with a BP lube per above.

You'll want a stiffer lube than "Bore Butter" for it to hold up, as you'll only be usin' a dab or two.

And Joe is right... you'll be puttin' a LOT of compression to get 40 grains of 3F in a modern .45Colt case... more like 35±. Good luck and have fun; but, it's addicting!

[Don McDowell]

40 grs of 3f will be a pretty full case, so the airspace thing isn't going to be much of a problem. I would strongly sugges some sort of "wad" between the bullet and powder, even something as simple as wax paper can help with both accuracy and fouling problems.
If those bullets you have aren't lube with a good for bp lube you can do two things.
1 put them in a pan of boiling water and let the lube melt out of the grooves. remove from heat and when the water cools the lube will be a film on top of the water. Then you can lube the bullets with any type of "bp" lube however you see fit. Borebutter doesn't work worth a flip for bullet lube by itself.
2. You can load those bullets, and then when the chamber is loaded treat the gun as a cap and ball and put borebutter, or Crisco shortening (the fake lard stuff) or even just plain lard in the chamber mouths, and fire.
Be sure when you're done to wash the cases in some sort of soapy water, dry and run thru the tumbler.

[Griff]

...1 put them in a pan of boiling water and let the lube melt out of the grooves. remove from heat and when the water cools the lube will be a film on top of the water. Then you can lube the bullets with any type of "bp" lube however you see fit...

Great Don, now I have another method of getting the wife upset about her cookware!

[Don McDowell]

I avoided that problem when I bought a box of cookware at a farmsale once. The only thing was the cast iron skillets had to go as offerrings to appease the Goddess of the Kitchen.
I keep a couple of little aluminum sauce pans around the casting stuff , just for special occasion.

[colo native]

SPG SPG

[Doc Hudson]

...1 put them in a pan of boiling water and let the lube melt out of the grooves. remove from heat and when the water cools the lube will be a film on top of the water. Then you can lube the bullets with any type of "bp" lube however you see fit...

Great Don, now I have another method of getting the wife upset about her cookware!

Don beat me to the boiling water suggestion, so I'll make a suggestion to keep you out of hot water with the Boss Lady.

Stop by a resale or good will store and buy a cheap 1 or 2 quart aluminum pot for your bullet de-lubing project. And while there, try to find a rusty old serving spoon, you can use that to skim off the melted lube, and a dented up old colander to dump the hot water and bullets into to let them dry.

[perry owens]

These little guys are great for black powder shooting as they hold a lot of lube without taking up case room.

If you don't want to cast your own you can buy them ready lubed with BP lube from here
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/Accessory%20page.htm
Perry Owens

[Don McDowell]

Doc I like to let that lube film setup on the top, then take it off in a big wafer. I then turn around and use that for a "waxcheck" with smokeless loads.

[J Miller]

Doc I like to let that lube film setup on the top, then take it off in a big wafer. I then turn around and use that for a "waxcheck" with smokeless loads.

You could also use it for flux when you cast your own, maybe.

Hey Don, I'll take those two pounds of Elephant powder.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe I like you better than to do something nasty like that to ya

[Otto]

These little guys are great for black powder shooting as they hold a lot of lube without taking up case room.

If you don't want to cast your own you can buy them ready lubed with BP lube from here
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/Accessory%20page.htm
Perry Owens

Those won't work, i'm shooting a 45.











Just kidding, I'm going to order some. thanks for the link.

[Ray Newman]

One thing thast has been mentioned is post-shooting case cleaning.

W/ BP, you need to wash the cases after shooting to remove the BP residue from the primer pockets & the cases. If not, the residue will attack the brass, & eventually weaken it so it will fail upon the next firing.

I don't shoot BP in pistol catridges any more. I shoot rifle calibres & I just put the empties in a sack @ the range. Once home, I deprime & wash out the cases & primer pockets w/ a brush & hot soapy water.

Some shooters soak the case in a water & soap solution @ the range or @ home, then wash out the cases, deprime, etc. However, this does not clean out the primer pocket residue.

Otto: scroll down the link that Perry Owens provided. You'll see some .45 cal Big Lube band bullets in 200 & 250 grain weights, .452 & .454" dia.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Thats what I did too Don. I keep the ones she dont want.

Only real Black Powder for me Thank You!

You can make a good grease cookie by mixing that Bore butter , Bore lube 1000 (and others are made by the same company Ox Yoke with different fragrences (sp?) and color and marketed by TC ,Remington and others)
Mix your Bore Butter 50/50% with Bees wax and it works well.
I use SPG because it is not expensive and works very good.

Melt some bullet lube in a pan of water and it will float to the top.
Let it cool and the resulting sheet of lube from the top can be cut into lube cookies with the mouth of the cartrige while loading.
Just hold the lube sheet over the case mouth and push down with the thumb.

[Don McDowell]

Chuck sometime if you get the chance try some of the Sagebrush Alox lube. I like it quite a bit better than SPG, SPG is good , but this Sagebrush stuff keeps the fouling a whole bunch softer ,even when things get hot and dry. And it only costs about 10$ for a halfpound tub.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Thanks Don ! I will do that. Always looking for somthing new to try.