Kevin Robertson bashed leverguns again...

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:02 pm

Kevin Robertson is a D.V.M. and PH in Zimbabwe and South Africa. He studies terminal ballistics and has written a number of books on dangerous game and rifle ballistics. He is a great guy with a ton of knowledge. However, he just won't warm up to leverguns. Some of you may remember the exchange I had with him that was posted a few months ago. Here's his latest response to someones inquiry:
Q: I want to use my 450 Marlin on a buffalo hunt, is it adequate?

A: The 450 Marlin is not suitable for buffalo for the following reasons: 1) 4000 ft lbs of ME is minimum legal in most countries, 3500 ft lbs ME in the remaining countries. 2) .300 sectional density should be used on thick skinned game like buffalo. The 450 Marlin would not be legal in most countries and even if it were only has a SD of .238 with the 350gr bullet. If you are serious about buffalo, get a 375 H&H. We PH's believe that lever-action rifles belong in cowboy movies, not African hunting fields.

He could have just left it with the facts, but he had to go there...

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:16 pm

If I want a PH's opinion on something, I will ask one I trust.

Joe - what do you think about leverguns for hunting?

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:18 pm

86er, what about the 4000-3500 lb requirements and the .300 SD?

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:19 pm

Head em off at the pass pard! Aint seen no African buffs in these parts lately.
He does seem a little down on levers .

crs · Post by **crs** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:27 pm

Interesting. I guess he has not read the current issue of African Hunter. Or maybe he did and it angered him to read about a hunter taking an elephant with a Marlin lever gun.
Anyhow, the more he fusses and fumes, the more some hard headed lever gun nuts will go show him to be wrong. HeXX , folks have killed elephants with archery gear, pistols, the .44 mag carbine, blackpowder rifles, and on and on.
He is also a bit presumptious in saying "We phs" - has some global PH organization made him their spokesperson?

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:27 pm

So what would he say about the one guy(cant remember his name right now) that took the big5 with a remington Zouave repro using .58 minis if I remember right.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:36 pm

JReed wrote:So what would he say about the one guy(cant remember his name right now) that took the big5 with a remington Zouave repro using .58 minis if I remember right.

I would love to see him explain that into obscurity.

omgb · Post by **omgb** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:40 pm

Val Forget was his name and he actually used a model called the Hawken Hunter (I had one...thing) that fired a 610 grain Shiloh Stake Buster slug in front of 180 grains of 3F

I tried the same load with the same gun and it darn near burned my face off after it recocked the hammer and blew back through the musket cap nipple.

Anyway, it seems to me that with the right load, and the right bullet, a modern lever action is more than the equal of some turn of the century cordite rounds and certainly superior to even the old 8 bore round ball loads that 19th century hunters used on buff. But hey, what do I know, I've never been to Africa and have no plans to do so in the future.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:44 pm

Andrew wrote:
JReed wrote:So what would he say about the one guy(cant remember his name right now) that took the big5 with a remington Zouave repro using .58 minis if I remember right.
I would love to see him explain that into obscurity.

Oh they got an easy one for that, just go over to AR. They just wave it away and call it a stunt. It's easy to do that when you sit up in an ivory tower surrounded by your own pompous arrogance like some of those guys.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:45 pm

omgb
thanks for the correction I had heard it was a zouave. It recocked the hammer

.

Big Bore 94 · Post by **Big Bore 94** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:57 pm

If I remember correctly. When the 375 JDJ came out. It was used on African game. Out of a pistol. Also was it not said that thee .308 is the best poachers round in Africa?

cutter · Post by **cutter** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:04 pm

Big Bore 94 wrote:If I remember correctly. When the 375 JDJ came out. It was used on African game. Out of a pistol. Also was it not said that thee .308 is the best poachers round in Africa?

7.62x39 I thought?

cas · Post by **cas** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:34 pm

180grs of 3F sounds more like a bomb recipe than a load.

cutter wrote: 7.62x39 I thought?

30 round magazines, full auto. It's what they have, not so much a "choice".

joachim slim · Post by **joachim slim** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:53 pm

what about the winchester 1895 in .405?

Marlin .35 · Post by **Marlin .35** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:58 pm

Who cares about his opinion. We know what levers can do! He is just ignorant of the facts!! Art

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:00 am

joachim slim wrote:what about the winchester 1895 in .405?

OF COURSE NOT!!!! We all know that game is much tougher in the 21st Century than it was in the 19th, or even the early 20th! We can't be having those low level pop guns around, now can we? Why, even the .30-30 is inadequate for game above a coyote, and even that is marginal!

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:11 am

Oh and never mind all those Lee Enfields in .303 Brit that seem to be carried by just about every tracker and park employee that I have ever seen pics of.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:17 am

I remember reading one of Peter Capstick's books " Warrior". The subject of the book was a British Officer by the name of Col. Richard Minertzhagen. He was a Miitary man, hunter and naturalist from the turn of the Last century and spent most of his life in Africa. His rifle of choice was the .276 Mannlicher for everything up to and including elephant! I doubt the .276 meets Mr. PH's requirements but I think I'll stick w/ my 450 Marlin ( unless of course I come across a .276 Mann.). I've been on the back side of a lot of rounds out of that rifle. Sure would hate to be in front of it.

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:18 am

Didn't Karamojo Bell use a ridiculousely small caliber for most of his elephant hunting? A 7 by something as I recall.

Quinn

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:15 am

pharmseller wrote:Didn't Karamojo Bell use a ridiculousely small caliber for most of his elephant hunting? A 7 by something as I recall.

Quinn

So he did. He began with a .303Brit, but had the scottish gunsmith Fraser to trim a .256 Mannlicher to 5 lbs, with which he killed a lot of elephants. Soon he changed from the .256 to a 7 mm Mauser, as the .256 ammo didn't always fire. He always used full jackets - "No lead tips have ever polluted my bore!"

His shooting ability was legendary. He was known for killing elephant with perfect brain shot from every possible angle. There is a story of him, where it is told that he shot flying ducks at the Victoria lake at 100 yds height - with a .318 Westley-Richard rifle.

Old Sh.

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:42 am

It would be difficult (if not impossible) for me to give less of a **** what some guy in Africa thinks about my levergun.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:54 am

the guy who took the African Big 6 was Vince Lupo, and I'm pretty sure he used a regular Marlin 1895 in 45-70.

As a good advertisement for the crossbolt safety, he clicked on a charging lion, disabled the safety, and managed to get the shot off.

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/hunt_results.asp

Can you hear 'em clankin' when he walks, boys?

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:50 am

Mr. Lupo has several articles on Leverguns.Com ...

AFRICAN QUEST http://www.leverguns.com/articles/lupo/lupo.htm

airedaleman · Post by **airedaleman** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:16 am

Bell also used a .22 Hi-Power to kill Cape Buffalo and a Mauser C96 to hold off a bunch of natives; his books are fascinating.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:31 am

I figure this PH fellow is highly experienced, but he has a 'bigger is better' problem. Hopefully, he doesn't watch 'Future Weapons' on the Discovery Channel, or he'll soon be bad-mouthing the .460 as inadequate and 'stunting'. Hunting is what you make it. Some fellows like the PH's favorite canons, others like bows and arrows and some like to do it with a knife. That PH fellow has a chip on his shoulder. Someone should get him a .750 Extreme-Mag with a 50 round clip for Christmas. It don't exist, but if it did, it puts a 800 grain explosive slug out the barrel at 4,500 fps and can take out a charging Cape Buff simply by hitting the ground in the general area of the Buff. How's that for 'enough gun' for mister PH?

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:20 pm

pharmseller wrote:Didn't Karamojo Bell use a ridiculousely small caliber for most of his elephant hunting? A 7 by something as I recall.

He used a .275 Rigby, which was the British trade name for the 7x57mm Mauser. He did a lot of good work with it, but very selective shots in the ear were utilized.

scott

Mike Hunter · Post by **Mike Hunter** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:21 pm

Guess all the African game taken with Winchester's 1876 in 50-95, the 1886 in 45-90, 50 Ex, 50-100-450, and 405 were all lucky shots.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:55 pm

Poachers do well on elephant with their AKs

admiral · Post by **admiral** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:25 pm

although the Dr. might not like lever guns he makes his recommendations based on actual field experience of hunting/shooting dangerous game. i'm sure that this question is posed to him often judging by the popularity of the Marlin guide gun 45-70, 450 Marlin. bullet selection is a big deal because the rifles are much more limited in overall length of the final cartridge to still cycle in the action. as we all know big bullets in these two rounds start to take up powder capacity thus limiting the velocity that they can be driven lowering the f.p.e. that the cartridges must have to comply with certain laws. whether the laws are right or wrong dosen't matter. i think alot of people think the 45-70/450 Marlin are big rounds because everything else they have used is equivalent to a 30-06 or a 300 Mag and most people's "big" game hunting is deer hunting. i am not slamming the Guide gun or the chambering. i think it is great that an affordable, powerful, .45 cal levergun is available to the masses but we must keep the context correct. besides there are places in Africa where you can shoot Cape Buff with the Guide gun. if you are contemplating a trip to Africa buying a new rifle that meets the requirements of the district would be the cheapest part of that endeavor anyway. Has anyone seen the new 475 Turnbull cartridge? it is based on the 50-110 necked to .475 for the 1886's. both the big 50 and the 475 Turnbull meet any/all caliber restrictions for dangerous game.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:44 pm

KirkD wrote:I figure this PH fellow is highly experienced, but he has a 'bigger is better' problem...

In PsyD circles that's called "Compensation"...

444Hal · Post by **444Hal** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:19 pm

Guess they didnâ€™t shoot elephants and buffalo before they invented the 375 H&H back in 1912.

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:07 pm

when i was a little kid, i was looking thru a marlin catalog. they had a cold rolled steel plate about 3/8" thick. my memories going so it my not be exact. a .444 ,.308 and 35 rem were fired at it. using non premiun,softpoint-expanding ammo, the 444 and 308 completely penetratedit leaving nice holes. the 35 rem put a nice dent in it. i never put much faith in recommended minimum calibers since.

86er · Post by **86er** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:16 pm

I do agree with his assessment of the prescribed limitations when they are FOR THE PH to abide by. After all, the PH has a job to do that may include bringing a deadly encounter to a screeching halt. If you are taking into consideration the most reliably consistent attributes, .300SD and the bullet weight/velocity recommendations Kevin makes are an excellent baseline. Personally, I have no problem with a client using whatever rifle they shoot well that is capable of the job. If it is marginally capable, it becomes my job first to make sure the client can shoot accurately and rapidly, and second to get the client close, call the shot when the animal is in the best position, and provide back-up if necessary. So while I agree with the factual part of Kevins statement, I apply it to the PH and I don't think there was ANY need for the smart statement he ended with.

Bramble · Post by **Bramble** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:29 pm

Whilst the last line of his reply was unnecessary and insulting

, perhaps the question was not the right one to ask.

In the parlence of African hunting "adaquate" is defined as a cartridge that will get the job done and save your life when everything goes wrong. Not when a good shot makes an atonomically correct hit.

You can hunt things with bows and less powerfull cartridges, subject to legal minimums that differ from country to country. But the PH is legally responsible for your life, he can get huge fines, loose his consession or go to jail if you get stomped, or a tracker gets killed by his not taking proper precautions, ie adaquate calibers.
If you look at the vids of bow hunts, you will see the PH's with large caliber BA or Doubles backing up the hunters.
I am not a fan of magnumitis, but these are occasions where raw Ftlbs do count. I doubt that there is a PH who has been charged, that at that moment did not wish for a bigger gun, no matter what he was carrying.
There are very few deer cartridges that with solids will not reach the vitals of any game on earth from .243 upwards, but they are not "stoppers" a misplaced shot will not impart sufficient shock to the system of an animal to turn a charge or stun it.

Now if you ask "Will my 45-70 with solids (cast solid)kill a buff", then the answer has to be yes. The next question should be "Will you stand next to me with a .500 NE in case I screw it up or will you be bringing a .275 rigby

"

omgb · Post by **omgb** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:40 pm

My $.02. Lots of guys use bullets designed for the 45-70 in lever action guns and when hunting thin skinned game such as elk or deer, they work just fine. Now that same bullet, when launched at a cape buf that has an inch of dried waddy on his already thick hide,, is going to fail miserably. Since a lot of African countries do not permit handloads (that's what I';ve read anyway) a guy shooting factory fodder is going to be using a poor bullet choice much of the time. So, maybe that's where this PG got his ideas from.

shawn_c992001 · Post by **shawn_c992001** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:59 pm

One word "Garrett". Case closed.

LeverBob · Post by **LeverBob** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:31 pm

First of all, I don't give a rat's azz what he thinks of leverguns. Plenty of PH's use them to deal with charging lions & buffs. If he thinks they are useless, then so be it. To me he is narrow minded until he tries them out for himself. If he chooses not to, then in my opinion he is biased without facts. And, a coward. A yellow belly with a streak a mile wide down his back. No sand, no grit and a man not to be trusted.

To be fair, he does know what he's talking about regarding African game. It's his opinion. I have never hunted Africa. I've been trying to get there for over 40 yrs. Haven't made it yet. I have NO OPINION regarding AF game. I do know something about American game.

If he thinks that leverguns are only suited for the movies, regarding north american or african game, then he is a pissant ignoramous who can't get around his own uneducated predudice. Let him come here & hunt our game with anyone who is a member of this forum.
Let's see how well he handles 14K+ foot elevations for sheep & bighorn in the cold & thin air. Let's see how well he handles facing a coastal bear head on, that makes his puney (sp) lions look like ***** cats.

Let's see him travel to the Rio Grande to face the wild cattle living along the border of Texas & then run us down about our dangerous game. I would like to see him face a wild California boar at 10 feet, like I did among the reeds in the river just west of in Riverside Ca.

No...he's just another arrogant jerk, who can't get out of his own way. And, I hope he reads this post. He's a legend in his own mind like soooo many others. While his opinion is valid regarding AF game, he has NO OPINION reagading the worth of leverguns & their uses. And, if he doesn't like what I've written, he can chew on my knuckles.

What a MAROON...

Respectfully submited to the Brethren...

LeverBob

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:38 pm

I'd feel pretty comfortable with my .45-70s in Africa. Is he correct that they (and the .450 Marlin)are illegal to use for the most part?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:40 pm

86er wrote:I do agree with his assessment of the prescribed limitations when they are FOR THE PH to abide by. After all, the PH has a job to do that may include bringing a deadly encounter to a screeching halt. If you are taking into consideration the most reliably consistent attributes, .300SD and the bullet weight/velocity recommendations Kevin makes are an excellent baseline. Personally, I have no problem with a client using whatever rifle they shoot well that is capable of the job. If it is marginally capable, it becomes my job first to make sure the client can shoot accurately and rapidly, and second to get the client close, call the shot when the animal is in the best position, and provide back-up if necessary. So while I agree with the factual part of Kevins statement, I apply it to the PH and I don't think there was ANY need for the smart statement he ended with.

Well said. I would expect the PH to have a lot less freedom in the sort of rifle he uses. When a client messes up, the PH has to step up to the plate, and he'd better have enough gun to put an end to an emergency situation right now. The client should have the luxury of a lot more freedom in his/her choice.

Bramble · Post by **Bramble** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:00 pm

Swampman wrote:I'd feel pretty comfortable with my .45-70s in Africa. Is he correct that they (and the .450 Marlin)are illegal to use for the most part?

Chris Troskie if he is reading this would be the best to comment, however THBOMK the min Dangerous game caliber is .375 H+H and above with an exception being made for the 9.3 x 62 because of its proven killing reputation. As such 45-70 and .450 are legal I believe.

African PH's are very conservative on their recomendations for rifles. Almost exclusivly bolt actions are 98 Mauser or derivitives with controled round feed, such as pre 64 Winchesters. Doubles should be rimmed cartridges.
This has to do with feeding problems and extraction of sticky cases.

PH's and client can and do get killed every year. And game is lost.
If that safari is a one in a lifetime deal and one asks a PH for a recommendation then he will give it to the best of his experience.

Most people can tollerate a .375H+H recoil and shoot it reasonably well with a scope. Thus it has become the rifle of choice for a client. It is powerfull enough to kill the big five and it is legal. For the same good reason as not using a less powerfull cartridge they will not recommend that a client carries a big double as most cannot shoot them well enough both in recoil terms and because they are open sighted to get the job done, although they are amoungst the most powerfull sporting cartridges.

If the client insists, then they will let you shoot whatever the heck to want to, its your dollar at the end of the day if you wound it you've bought it anyway. The PH will finish it off because he is obliged to for plains game and if its DG for the safety of the party, if the clients rifle cannot get it done and then nobody goes away happy.

Even Elmer Keith the greatest 45-70 exponient, on his Alaska trip for big bear carried a .35 Whelen the rest of the party all carrying .375's, a Nieder a Hoffman and a H+H. For a Polar bear trip carried a .338 mag, in Africa a .333OKH and a .476 Wesley Richards. Another trip to Africa has him with a .500NE Boswell double and a .375 H+H.

Regards

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:12 pm

KirkD wrote:
86er wrote:I do agree with his assessment of the prescribed limitations when they are FOR THE PH to abide by. After all, the PH has a job to do that may include bringing a deadly encounter to a screeching halt. If you are taking into consideration the most reliably consistent attributes, .300SD and the bullet weight/velocity recommendations Kevin makes are an excellent baseline. Personally, I have no problem with a client using whatever rifle they shoot well that is capable of the job. If it is marginally capable, it becomes my job first to make sure the client can shoot accurately and rapidly, and second to get the client close, call the shot when the animal is in the best position, and provide back-up if necessary. So while I agree with the factual part of Kevins statement, I apply it to the PH and I don't think there was ANY need for the smart statement he ended with.
Well said. I would expect the PH to have a lot less freedom in the sort of rifle he uses. When a client messes up, the PH has to step up to the plate, and he'd better have enough gun to put an end to an emergency situation right now. The client should have the luxury of a lot more freedom in his/her choice.

At which point I want my PH to have an RPG, a Barrett .50 or a 4-bore double, not some pipsqueek .375 H&H...

Really, the Client should be able to dictate... within reason.

The PH & Porters have, and should have, different rules.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:09 pm

Well, that PH could have left off that last sentence about leveractions belonging only in western movies, that shows that maybe he doesn't know all there is to know about our American Leveractions. But his other comments have value. He is right about the sectional density of the 450's 350gr bullet, and IMHO I would not want to take on a elephant with anything less then a 400gr solid in any 45 caliber rifle.

And a 300gr solid out of a 375 HH Mag would more then likely have better penertration then the 350gr bullet out of the 450 Marlin. In 45 caliber, 500gr bullets might be the best choice.

This PH is definately a bit arrogrant, but on the other hand, most PH's have probably experienced enough boltched shots on big game, and the trouble it causes, to want to stack as many cards in their favor as possible, with regards to the proper weapon of choice.

And even though TR used a .405 Winchester for his lion medicine, I think even he used something different for elephant.

admiral · Post by **admiral** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:04 pm

And even though TR used a .405 Winchester for his lion medicine, I think even he used something different for elephant.[/quote] you are correct, he used a H&H .500/.450 double. Teddy also shot a rhino 5 times with the .405 with solids but had to finish it off, as it was very irritated,with both barrels of the big double.

Kevin Robertson bashed leverguns again...

Kevin Robertson bashed leverguns again...

lever gun

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