Conflicting Results - LeverEvolution 30-30

[86er]

DAY 1:
Jack and I slipped into the blind at 4:30 PM positioning us exactly 100yds from a well used deer trail. We slipped 30-30 Hornady LeverEvolution ammo into the magazine of the Marlin, worked the lever and eased down the hammer. 5:30 four deer cross to the 100 yd mark in front of us and stop. I put the crosshairs behind the bucks shoulder and whisper to Jack who responds that he is aimed in at the biggest doe. I whisper - well sort of a loud whisper - "One, Two, Three".
BOOM-OOM! The shots are nearly simultaneous. The deer Jack shot runs to the left 50 yds and stops. The one I shot runs straight away 50 yds further and at that point receives another 160gr red tipped bullet between the loins. The dirt flying up between the legs indicates the bullet passed through ahead of the hips. The buck continues to run another 100yds right and jumps over a 3 strand barbed wire fence. We look back to the doe on the left. She lies down, then her head sways and drops to the ground creating a cloud of dust. 15 minutes passes. Another lone doe steps out at the 100 yd mark. I put the crosshairs behind the front leg and squeeze. At the shot she jumps up and turns as she hits the ground, sprinting 100 yds and crashing through the barbed wire.

We go to the spot where the doe Jack shot went down. She is not there. We comb the field to no avail. We are losing light so we hurry to the barbed wire fenced property line. There is no indication of the buck jumping over, but there is a large amount of blood where the doe went under. We grab flashlights and one more person. The blood trail takes us over 100 yds of ground. The trailing is slow due to the darkness that has set in, but the trail is heavy and obvious. After an hour and change we have exhausted all the flashlight batteries and go home for the night.

DAY 2:
At first light two of us are in the field looking for the deer. First we continue the blood trail and find the deer only 15 feet from where we stopped last night. The coyotes have eaten the entire back end. The deer is shot through both lungs three inches behind the front leg. The exit hole is slightly larger than the entrance hole. Back along the barbed wire we see the buck just inside the wire fence. He fell when he jumped and breathed his last breath. Last night we had misjudged where he crossed by 30 yards and failed to see him. He remained in a ball all night in 64 degree temperature and his insides exploded. All of the meat is spoiled. The first shot hit him 3 inches behind the front leg and passed through both lungs. The exit hole is a diamond shape and smaller than 30 Caliber in size. The second hole went through the thigh and out the belly, only damaging leg meat and cutting the large intenstine. The exit hole is the size of a dime. We go to the last known location of Jack's doe and follow in a straight line. 250 yds later the deer is located stuck between strands of barbed wire. It was the vultures that were flocking in to the area that tipped up off. She is shot right on the back line of the leg and through one lung. The bullet ripped a 4 inch gash exiting behind the ribs on the off side. The birds have pulled apart the head and pulled out all the insides.
DAY 3:
We must leave to get some work done. We sadly depart with no meat nor trophy and a mixed feeling of anger and sorrow. While driving 350 miles I call Hornday and speak to someone I know. The LE ammo is in it's second generation. Consumer feedback deemed the first generation too soft. Possibly the second generation over compensated and is too hard. Generation three is in development. That seems a viable explanation to the small exit holes and seeming lack of terminal damage and shock. We finish work and are still unsettled with the unexplainable and unbelievable deer hunting experience. We turn the truck around and drive what has become 478 miles to overnight where we left just two days earlier.
DAY 4:
6:00 AM meets Jack and I with a 26 degree temperature just 32 miles from where we hunted in a T-Shirt two days ago. This time, with coveralls and gloves we each take seperate stands. Once again I push Hornady's LeverEvolution ammunition into my 30-30 (same box of cartridges). Even before daylight breaks I can see deer in the dirt trail next to me. There are 9 altogether. As the sun breaks I see at least 25 more deer. The closest group of deer is 52 yards from me according to the laser rangefinder. At 7:00AM I settle the crosshairs on the biggest deer of the 9. I will not repeat Mondays events. This time I aim straight up the front leg and only 1/3 up the shoulder. BOOM! The deer's nose hits the frozen ground and it flops onto it's side. I see the cloud of life exit the deer into the below freezing morning air. I sit back and relax waiting for Jack's rifle to break the silence. At 7:30AM I have not heard Jack shoot and we agreed to end our hunt to head back home another 370 miles from our frozen stands. I have used two antlerless tags and one MLD permit. We have another MLD permit for either of us to use. I had been watching a lone buck to my front 100 yds away. When he finally turns broadside I create the same picture in the scope that resulted in a dead deer just 30 minutes ago. I am surprised at how quiet the rifle sounded when it fired the cartridge. The buck back-flips and kicks his feet in the air two times. The air is still and silent again. I call Jack and tell him to meet me and I have a deer for each of us to mix with our hogs that were killed previously to create a wonderful sausage. Examination of these two deer show both were shot exactly through the point of the shoulder. In each, the heart was pierced and massive internal injury in the chest cavity resulted. Neither bullet exited. As we skinned them, we could easily see where the bullet pushed the hide away from the meat. However, even using a metal detector we could not located the bullets inside the carcasses.

What do I think of this ammunition that behaves so differently under nearly identical circumstances? Day One there are three wasted deer. The bullets pass through with no signs of expansion and minimal damage. Three days later the bullets do not exit the deer and the deer are dead within seconds no more than one step from where they stood upon impact. The one variable is that Day Four's deer were shot in the shoulder and the bullet broke leg bones and scapulars. In spite of this very limited sample, to me this performance is unacceptable. I have used many bullet and cartridge combinations that were much more consistent and reliable under a wide variety of circumstances. Back at the office I check our client log book for 30-30 information. I am surprised to see that a little over 80% of the deer sized animals our clients shot with 150 gr 30-30 were one shot kills with a high percentage of those "Dead Right There". The 170 gr produced 70% one shot kills with only 45% "DRT" (This is on deer species only). One the way home I stopped at Cabelas and purchased a bag of 150 grain Remington Core-Lokt bullets. I hope I solved this problem.

[JohndeFresno]

Thank you for taking the time to make such an accurate chronicle of your hunt. I have been keenly interested in the performance of the LE 30-30 ammunition since its inception, and have not had the opportunity to test it in a hunting situation. I've archive your excellent report, as have others, I am sure.

Could you hazard a remark about the efficacy of the Barnes 150 gr. (#30820 TSX) FN all-copper bullet? I recall that "sobenk" noted that it will open up at 1400 fps. I'm wondering if you have some guide or hunting experience with this round; and I am seriously considering this (now) as the round to carry in my part of the country for deer and hogs.

[Bruce]

I have no experience with the 30-30 LE ammo, but have shot a few deer with other brands and have found the Core=Lokt to be a good performer.

Your notes on the 150 grain bullets in a 30-30 reflect the same information that can be found in Sam Fadala's book - Winchester's 30-30, The Model 94, on page 21. The basic information is that a hunter poll in the late 1940's found that grain round (in 30-30) to be one of the top two one shot kill rounds. The other round in the top two was the 300 magnum.

[Borregos]

An extremely interesting report,thanks.

[RIHMFIRE]

I have wondered about the expansion of LE bullets...
I have yet to try them myself.....
I guess the bullet did not hit enough mass to
displace the tip of the bullet...and start expansion...
What size are your deer?....
and how much damage did it do to the front shoulder?
or shoulders?
I wonder if they tested there ammo on larger deer...
Thanks for the report...

[flb]

Very interesting story, well written. I have some of the LE stuff but have not used it. I have lots of 150 RN Hornady loaded but have also been loading the Speer 130 FNSP with 35grs of H-335. Your story has made me glad I didn't jump on the LE ammo bandwagon more.I plan on testing all this ammo in a 1982 336 and a 340 with a Nikon on it.

[brucew44guns]

I just bought a 94 Win from Victor in .32 special, I think I will get me some Core-Locks or Silver Tips, no need to be disappointed with performance later on if I decide to take the rifle hunting. I have been believing the LE is fantastic, and have some 45-70, .444, and 450 Marlin bought. Wish I had been more cautious, or had read this report.

[86er]

An important note: If I had experienced the results I did on DAY 4 in the first place (DAY 1), and I was a casual hunter with a limited sample for reference I would likely conclude that the LE ammo is the Cat's Meow. The accuracy is excellent and so is the velocity (very consistent). My small experience is not enough to bash all LE ammo. However, it is enough for me to use something more established while Hornady gets their bullets "just right". In response to JohndeFresno - I had seen some good results with the Barnes FN 150gr. I really wanted to try them and intended to buy them when I went to Cabelas. They were out of stock. That got me thinking - I don't want to "experiment" on any more deer. When I get the chance I will be able to cull some exotics, starting with smaller animals and working up to deer species if the performance remains stable. When I can do that I will be shooting and comparing Core-Lokts in both weights to Barnes FP's.

[Mike Rintoul]

86er and others interested -

I also had heard what you reported about the LeverEvolution from within the industry. In defense of Steve Hornady, he doesn't tolerate inconsistency and will most likely figure out the right formula for those bullets. Most of their products are very accurate and consistent as you stated. I commend your choice of the Core-Lokt. Personally I tend to lean towards the heavier bullet but considering your experience the other day I think you are right that the 150 gr may show more instantaneous results given the right shot. With all that in mind, I'd be happy to send you the 170gr Hawk ammunition we load for "testing". A lot of companies rely on consumer feedback as their R&D. We have always maintained a network of professional outfitters and hunters to continually field test our ammo and bullets before we list them for general sale. On our property we shoot all kinds of animals, big and small, although not in a hunting setting. Our 170 gr 30-30 load gets 2200fps from a 20" barrel. I negotiated with Hawk to get the jacket thickness I wanted so these bullets are made to our order. I will be the first to admit we designed these strictly for deer under 300 pounds and within the traditional range of a 30-30 (under 200 yds). The combination of jacket and lead density consistenly cause expansion and a high percentage of pass-thoughs. On the other hand, there is a chance these loads will fail on 200-250 pound black bear or very heavy northern whitetail or mule deer. With thick hides and very thick, dense flesh the jacket tends to separate from the core. This is primarily because the jacket is made from a tube, and has a small hole in the base. On deer with proper application of the 30-30 I am confident you would be happy with the results. I am negotiating with Karl at Alaska Bullet Works for a 30-30 Kodiak bullet. The goal is a flat point bonded core that will expand at 30-30 operating parameters and stay together for extreme penetration. This load should be ready by next year. I cannot add any information about the Barnes bullet due to a lack or experience. I will say that Randy Barnes once stated that the bullet was designed to work at 30-30 velocity on deer. If indeed they taylored that load to that purpose and got it right it should not let you down. That statement is based on hearsay alone so you are right in trying it under controlled conditions before relying on it. Good Luck - and if any forum members would like to purchase any of our bullet or ammo just mention the forum for a generous discount!

Mike Rintoul
Grizzly Cartridge Company
Cast Performance Bullet Company

[rjohns94]

Excellent report Joe. Glad you went with the 150gr loads vice the 170s. Your point that had you had the day4 experience first, your conclusions would have been different. Your records certainly are invaluable in keeping the right perspective. As you might remember, I was very unhappy with the 170gr performance on a point of the shoulder shot at exoctic at the ranch in august though it performed fine on the blackbuck.

[cshold]

Just an observance
It’s good to see a manufacturer taking the time to go to the forums to gather real world info; from the joe average that’s in the field using the products in real world settings.

[gcs]

That's interesting your experience with the LE's. I've been using the LE's from the first batch they came out with, and All I can say is they have simply been the best 30-30 factory rounds I've ever used. Too soft? can't see how. I've taken 10 or 11 whitetails with them so far and most of them died in their tracks, or within 75', and all bullets exited. I've never experienced those kind of results with any other ammo, and I've taken a LOT of deer with the 30-30.

I was unaware there was a change in the bullets, can't imagine why, but I was getting ready to re-stock so I'll have to check into it.

[RKrodle]

86er and others interested -

I am negotiating with Karl at Alaska Bullet Works for a 30-30 Kodiak bullet. The goal is a flat point bonded core that will expand at 30-30 operating parameters and stay together for extreme penetration. This load should be ready by next year.

Mike Rintoul
Grizzly Cartridge Company
Cast Performance Bullet Company

Now that really gets my attention. It that bullet works as well as the rest that they make, then it should make a hum dinger of a load. And with Mike loading them you can bet they well perform.

[farmer44mag]

My hunting with the 30-30 has been in the brush so i have stuck with the cheaper winchester power points and remington core-lokt shells but my mom has a scope on her marlin and uses it exclusevly for all of her deer hunting and has shot 2 deer with the LE ammo. both were shot at less than 150yds and were one shot kills through the chest. both had large exit wounds. But this was ammo purchased a couple of years ago so if they changed it then i can't say on the new stuff.

[Sixgun]

Joe & Mike,
Sure is nice reading reports first hand from knowledgable shootists. Thank you.

Maybe I am old fashioned, but with the 30-30, I just never saw where any problem needed to be fixed. 7 mags, 300 RUM's, etc, yes--but the good ole 30-30 never was broken.

Mike, Hows that Model 71 working out for you?-----------------Sixgun

[iceman]

I have been thinking about this since yesterday and the only thing different in the two hunts is the temperature. Could it be that under warm temperatures the red tips are too soft to cause expansion on impact? On the colder day they behaved as advertised. If this is the case makes me wonder if they could become hard enough in cold weather to become dangerous in a tube magazine.I was thinking about getting some 35 cal when they become available to try in my 356. We have been known to get some pretty cold days during deer season and I wouldn't want to have a bomb in my hands. Just my .02.

[Tycer]

Yancey turned me on to Core-lokts. The ones I use in my .358 Win have held together perfectly and flattened well. I also like the fact Midway repackages them in bulk.

[salvo]

Great report Joe! Have you checked your ammo against the Hornandy recall# ? I guess some under powered ammo got out and sold. Probably be worth a check if you have a few boxes of the Leverevolution left.
http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=439

[Modoc ED]

For factory ammon in my Winchester Model 94 .30-30s, I use mostly Winchester Super X 170gr Power Points. I have used them successfully for coyotes, hogs, deer, and elk.

I do have some factory .30-30 Silver Tips on hand but haven't used them for some time and when I did use them it was only for deer. Very good results.

For reloading I use 170gr Remington Core-Lokt bullets. My reloads consist of WLR primers, Winchester cases, 30gr IMR-3031 and 170gr Remington Core-Lokts. I have used them successfully for coyotes, hogs, and deer.

All of the ammunition described above has performed flawlessly with good penetration and expansion.

I haven't used the Hornady LeveRevolution .30-30s; however, I have used the .444 Hornady LeveRevolution in my .444 MarlinSS with deep Ballard Rifling and 1:20 twist and although it passed through and through on the deer I killed with it, the exit wound was small making me think that the expansion of the bullet was poor.

My experience with the Barnes Copper 150gr .30-30 Triple Shock X-Bullet has been good. I have used them only on hogs so far and they have performed well BUT I am not pleased with their performance on shoulder/bone shots. They do not break bone and keep penetrating. My experience has been that they will sometimes break bone but not penetrate to any depth after doing so like say a Nosler Partition bullet would. It's something I am still working on.

[86er]

I checked the lot # and the ammo I have is not subject to the recall and was made in 2008. I gave what ammo I had left to a friend for his friend. They called and just shot a deer 5 minutes ago. They are going to look for it, which has me concerned, but I will have another brief report later.

[86er]

Conclusions to hunt in preceeding post -
Shot a doe at around 70 yds, a little high and behind the right shoulder quartering away. Bullet exited under opposite side leg very low (tower blind), knicked the foreleg upon exit. The deer ran what they estimate to be 60 yds. After a 5 minute wait they went to the last spot is was seen and it was still there lying down. At their approach it sprung up and went 5 or 6 steps, staggering. Another shot in the neck put it down. The neck shot was from around 25 yards and did not exit. Their rifle is a 24" barrel Marlin with scope. The man's rifle was sighted in dead on at 100 yds with 150 gr Remington and the Hornady LE shot same windage but 3 or 4 inches high when they fired 2 rounds for verification. That and the steep angle explain whey he shot higher than point of aim. Nothing definitive can be decided about the bullet performance but this report coupled with a bunch of previous reports starts to add up so you can draw your own conclusions. I asked him how the bullet compared to Remington 150's he shot deer with. He said it was "about the same", he "wasn't surprised nor impressed with the results since they were so similar".

[Scott Young]

for me hornady has always been a goto company. they have had very reliable products and i simply loved their loaded ammo when i wasn't able to hand load for a gun. i still am not able to reproduce some of the velocities they have in a couple of selections. i also have been a big fan of their components.

but,

i have not been a fan of these LeverEvolutions. i believe they are well intentioned, but they are trying to fix a problem that aint broke. i know that isn't good grammar. for all the great accomplishments they have had one dislike was bound to show up eventually.

[Kapincrunch]

Some thoughts, we tend to judge things on our limited experience with them. bullets, guns, basically everything. 3 deer getting away to die later is bound to sour someone on a particular loading. That said, I have heard report after report of people who love the LE bullets and think they really take the 30/30 into a new class. I have taken 3 deer with them myself. All three recovered although I almost lost one but that was due to my ability to shoot deer that are so small that they are easy to step over while you are looking for them.

In my gun the LE bullets shoot sub-MOA. To me that is astounding. I know within an inch where the bullet will be out to 235 yards. That is a confidence builder. They also retain energy to the point where they catch the 307win 180grain load at 100 yards. I want my bullets to expand and not just zip through. I might not mind if a 35 caliber didnt expand but a .308 needs to expand to kill quickly. I guess I will keep using the LE bullets until I sour on them, but I hope I never do.
Jim

[O.S.O.K.]

Joe, thanks for the reporting on this. Much hype has surrounded the LE loads.

I have not personally purchased any yet as I handload and am happy with what I've been using - which in the 30-30 has always been Speer Hot Cores.

I've used Hornady IL's in my bolt guns for years with very good results - they're good performers - being a bit tougher than the Remington corelokts. A little less expansion and always exit for me.

[gcs]

Something is wrong with those bullets, or the loading. I have never recovered a bullet of ANY manufacturer, they all exited.

Last year I shot a large doe with the LE's that jumped as I pulled the trigger. The bullet struck too far back through the pelvis and the spine and it still exited. Doe dropped like a rock due to the spine hit, but the bullet did it's job with extensive damage.

Your results are so opposite from my experience, and I completely trust your observations, that the only thing that I can say is that batch of LE's have something wrong with them.

Too bad you don't have them anymore, Hornaday might have liked to examine them.

[piller]

My wife loves the Eldorado Starfire 150 grain bullets in her .30-30. All of her deer were one shot kills using that ammo. I purchased some of the LeverEvolution for her, but she hasn't even tried it yet. I think that I will search for more of the Starfire for her and not worry about the LE for a while. The bullets Mike Rintoul has sound good, and I am going to order some others from grizzly soon, so I may try his suggestion. I really need to get myself another .30-30 since my wife won't give that one back.

[horsesoldier03]

I have shot most of my deer with a 30-30 and always had no issue with WIN PP or the REM Corelokt. Never needed to buy high dollar ammo!