What is "accurate" - really

[86er]

I have read a bunch of stuff lately about rifles that come with a manufacturers guarantee of one MOA or 1 1/2 MOA accuracy at 100 yds. One company guarantees one MOA up to 600 yds (and is priced accordingly). I've read the fine print and it varies but alway includes something like "for three shots of premium factory ammunition fired from a rest under controlled conditions". Some go so far as to specify a load of ammo that the MOA guarantee applies to. I have been seriously interested in one of these rifles. My friend has one - not a lever and in 300 WM - and althought the guarantee is one MOA, his best is 1 1/2" at 100 yds and that is with one out of 5 types of ammo he tried. A call to the manufacturer got hims this info - The guarantee is with Hornady Custom ammuntion (with a certain bullet) fired from a secured rest with a trigger release on an indoor 100 yd range, and with shots spaced 30 seconds apart.

My personal cadre of rifles varies somewhat, but here is an example of expectations that are repeatable for 3 shot groups off the bench at 100 yds with the ammo I like or loaded:
Win 1886 45-70 2.25"
Sav 99 308 Win 1.75"
Marlin 336 30-30 2.25"
Win 94 45 Colt 3.5"
Enfield 303 Brit. 3"
Rem 700 30-06 1.5"
All the above are factory spec and have scopes except the Win 94 and Enfield are peep sighted.

Here's what started this whole thing: I have a Ruger 77 (1988) in 7mm Rem Mag. I have had it professionally pillar bedded, glass bedded, free floated, crowned, lapped and cryo treated and custom 2 lbs trigger. The best 3 shot group at 100 yds off the bench with a scope on 10X out of 4 kinds of ammo in various bullet weights is 1.365". That was once. Generally, 5 shot groups will run around the 2" mark regularly. Is this rifle a keeper? Do I need to obsess over and inch at 100 yds?

I am curious what is expected and what is acceptable by you, and if any of your guns happen to be MOA accurate.

(I apologize for the long post)

[O.S.O.K.]

My own personal accuracy acceptance level is 1.5" for scoped bolt action rifles with good hunting bullets and 3" groups for leverguns at 100 yards. Oh, and that's 3 rounds. And I'm most concerned with the first round's placement!

That's 3" at 200, 4.5 at 300 and 6" at 400 yards for the scoped gun - I won't be shooting further. And 6" for 200 yards for the levergun - again, farthest I will personally take the shot.

That's 3" from point of aim for either at the maximum distance.

Place that on a game animal's killing zone and you plenty of room for some sighting error.

Many if not most of my rifles will do better, but those are my personal maximums.

Interestingly, a lot of people fault the AK-47 for it's poor accuracy but it will put all rounds within 3-4" at 100 meters which translates to 9-12" at 300 meters - its maximum effective range as designed. That's all that's needed to make a hit at that distance.

"The best is the enemy of the good enough" - Voltaire.

[pharmseller]

86er,
There are many on this board who are better shots in their sleep than I will ever be, even under "controlled conditions". That being said, if I couldn't get one ragged hole after that much tweaking I would suspect something, especially if another competent shooter got the same results.
I used to obsess about accuracy. I have a post-64 model 70 in .30-06 that can cloverleaf at 100 yards. I expect that from other scoped rifles, including my go-to Weatherby Ultralightweight in .30-06.
Over time I have come to the conclusion that it all depends on the application. If I'm hunting in dark timber with my open sighted model 71, I expect to put shots into an 8"x8" pie plate offhand at 100 yards. If I'm hunting sage rats my requirements tighten up much more.
Not making a value judgement, but I'm not a 600 yard shooter. I've shot over 200 yards maybe 4 times in my life. Most of my shots are 175 and in, and I try to kneel every chance I get.
Accurate to me means hitting the vitals of my target under "uncontrolled" conditions. IMO, the most important component of accuracy is the guy behind the trigger, regardless of the shooting iron. I think your table of expectations is reasonable.


P

[Modoc ED]

As long as I can shoot well enough to hit and cleanly kill whatever game I'm hunting with whatever rifle/ammunition combination I'm using, I feel that that rifle/ammunition is accurate.

Just my .02¢ but I feel that too many people are caught up in the less than 1" MOA when it comes to hunting rifles. If you're primarily a paper-puncher (nothing wrong with it a bit) and shoot mostly for score or in matches, less that 1" MOA is a much sought after goal but for hunting, that kind of accuracy is not necessary.

If you (meaning everyone) can stand and shoot a rifle off-hand and consistently put your bullets into a 6" diameter circle at 100-yards, you're good to go as far a hunting goes and should be good to go for distances out to 250/300 yards as far as hunting goes if you can calculate/estimate bullet drop.

Now, I'm talking - errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr typing here about hog, deer, elk, bear, coyote, type hunting. If you want to talk accuracy and rifles for squirrels and other very small game then we'll have to reconsider and seek out a rifle/ammunition combination that does in fact shoot at least in my opinion 1&½ inch groups or less on paper and be able to shoot pretty much the same size groups off-hand.

[PawPaw]

Like the other replies said, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

To my way of thinking an accurate rifle lets me hit my intended target at whatever range I care to attempt the shot. For deer sized game, that means hitting a 6" paper plate, first shot, every time. At whatever range you want to hit the plate.

I have a .35 Remington Marlin 336 that'll let me do that every time at 150 yards. I consider that the far reach of that particular rifle.

I have a Bolt gun in .243 that'll let me make that shot at 250 yards. It's good that I know that.

Lots of paper and powder is burned over one-hole groups, but I look for practical accuracy in my rifles. MOA accuracy is something to be sought-after. It's a good tool for assessing a rifle/load combination. It is certainly a good tool in the hands of an accomplished shooter.

[Old Ironsights]

Lemme put it this way...

I almost never shoot off the Bench - where accuracy is optimized - because, outside of initial gross sight adjustment, it's not how people hunt.

With one exception (my 513T) my guns are offhand killing tools. It's "accurate" to me if I can consistently hit the vitals at the ranges I wish to shoot.

Cloverleafing is almost immaterial.

[2ndovc]

I have a couple rifles that I expect an inch or less at 100 yds.
My Sako in .222 Rem will usually do 1/2" a 100 w/ 50 grain bullets.
Go up or down in bullet weight and that will open to 4"-5".
My '03 sporter will easily do 1" / 100yds with a number of different loads.
Rem. 03A3 with open sights runs 1 1/2"

If I do my part with my 1895LTD-III .45-70 I can get 2" or better at 100 yds. as will
my 1895M/ 450.
A couple others fall into that catagory. M1 & M1A.. Krag, etc.


2 1/2-3+-" @ 100 for me is good enough for a hunting rifle.

Keep working on that Enfield. I shot a couple 2" 100 yd groups with it and the
Greek surplus I sent ya.

jb

[Hillbilly]

I really appreciate the mechanics of what it takes to shoot 1MOA groups.. but just dont have the patience to do it. I can do it, I have done it...but am a convert to the idea that shooting little groups is an excercise to it's own end.

I would much rather be able to shoot minute -of-paper place or milk jug... snap shooting ...off-hand. That has been a harder skill to learn for me over the years.

For that, a rifle that is capable of shooting 2 or 3 inches at 100 yards is more than good enough.

Jeff

[donw]

the perimeters of "accuracy", as has been said, have to be established: are you going to be shooting at an "X" on a target at a known, given distance or at a live game animal at an unknown distance?

i think most "MOA" claims are now given as a three to five shot group at one hundred yards by most, if not all, manufacturers; that's a good 'starting point'.

i believe we all have certain expectations from ourselves AND our chosen firearms as a combination.

whatever we are doing with our chosen firearms is directly related to that. we have our heavy barreled, pillar bedded, BA rifles to "drive tacks" with and our buck horned rear sighted lever guns to knock down that pig, javelina, deer, elk or what ever live game at closer distances.

i've noticed a swing towards the "AR" semi-auto rifles now as being highly, if not surgically accurate, at some astounding ranges. where my interest in these type of rifle is great, my home state of california "rules" us mere, mortal, non-LEO are not able to own one for some strange reason(s)

bottom line is: we all prefer to be as accurate as possible; some are willing to go farther than others in order to place the bullet EXACTLY where they wish it to strike.

[jdad]

I used to own a 22LR Volquartsen Custom. They're basically a match grade semi-auto based on the Ruger 10-22 design. It came with an accuracy guarantee of a 5-shot, 50yd group, 3/8" ctc or less, using match grade ammo. I could consistently shoot groups half that size, on calm days, using Wolf MT/SK Standard Plus. I did have a Weaver V-16 mounted on it though. I shot the rifle, for several seasons, in Standard class smallbore silhouette. I got what I paid for.

[alnitak]

There are many on this board who are better shots in their sleep than I will ever be, even under "controlled conditions". That being said, if I couldn't get one ragged hole after that much tweaking I would suspect something...

What he said.

[Blaine]

I don't hardly shoot on paper, but I expect to hit a fist sized rock at hunting ranges...I support my shots when I can and practice off hand a bit more than some because that's where I need the practice....

[meanc]

If the use for your firearms is hunting only, I would say anything you can keep on a 6" paper plate at any distance is accurate enough for most deer sized animals out to that distance. For smaller animals/targets, better accuracy is required.

I've got a couple of levers that'll group inside an 1" at 100yds and around 4.5" at 300yds (it could probably shoot better at 300yds, but not with me behind the trigger).

Out of the several I have, my most favorite lever by far is a Win94 Trapper 44mag. It also just happens to have the worst accuracy (with my only hunting load).

It'll usually group around 2.75" at 100yds and at 150yds, will still keep them within 6" so that's good enough for me.

Now as far as precision shooting, I've actually taken factory stock 270s and 30-06s I've bought off the Wal Mart rack (Rem and Mossberg) that would each shoot Sub-MOA right out of the box and maintain it out to 300yds.

So, your 7mm Mag ,with all the work that's been done, should definitely be shooting MOA or better. But, like I said, group it at the longest distance you think you'd probably shoot. If it cant keep at least a 6" grp, I'd either keep the range down to where it would or get another rifle.

[O.S.O.K.]

I didn't specifically or directly answer your question about the M77 .

I would sell it, rechamber, rebore or rebarrel it. 2" is pretty poor for all that work and you're obviosly not happy with it.

How about a nice 375 Ruger?

[TedH]

With my scoped leverguns anything under 2.5" @ 100 yards is acceptable to me. I'm more of a nazi with my bolt guns. All of my bolt guns will shoot under 1 moa for 3 shots from a good rest. They are a 243 Win, 257 Rob, 270 Win, 338 Win, and even a 375 H&H. They all took some tinkering and fairly extensive handload development to get there though.

[crs]

Joe;
Simply stated, most of my scope sighted rifles shoot sub MOA as follows for 5 shot groups:
M70 .308 featherweight pre 1964 with handloads and some factory loads would hold a 5/8 " group.. This is after I "accurized" it and shot it a lot.
Ruger .338 with Winchester Black talon 230 gr 1" - glass bedded, magnaported, and trigger job. (A great hunting gun, it shoots 210, 230, and 250 gr to same place when shooting offhand)
Win M61 .22 LR with scope shoots 10 shot groups at 50 yards you can cover with a nickle (won many a turkey shoot prize with that one)
Savage O/U .,22 hornet .75 inch with Winchester and Hornady factory loads -a trigger job made this repeatable.

Lyles rifles best 5 shot groups with her shooting:
Savage 110 in .243 with hornady 100 gr Light mag 5/8 inch
Weatherby Mark V in 7mm weatherby mag factory 140 gr ammo 3/8 inch (I was there!) has muzzle brake. She nailed a walking Montana mulie at approx 400 yards with one shot, shooting prone over the guides's backpack - that is one reason for a rifle that shoot flat and shoots small groups.

Marty's Ruger 77 .243 with Winchester 100 gr - always under 1" with her shooting it! Totally factory, never even tuned.

However - all these nice groups were shot when the shooter was shooting a lot, not just a few times a year. The guns have not changed, but I can not shoot them as well as I once did.

[JimT]

My guns shoot much more accurately on the internet than they do in the field - especially in front of witnesses. In fact, the one rifle that I have that will shoot 1" 10-shot groups at 200 yards barely hit a 6" gong at 75 yards while people were watching.

[AJMD429]

Here's what started this whole thing: I have a Ruger 77 (1988) in 7mm Rem Mag. I have had it professionally pillar bedded, glass bedded, free floated, crowned, lapped and cryo treated and custom 2 lbs trigger. The best 3 shot group at 100 yds off the bench with a scope on 10X out of 4 kinds of ammo in various bullet weights is 1.365". That was once. Generally, 5 shot groups will run around the 2" mark regularly. Is this rifle a keeper? Do I need to obsess over and inch at 100 yds?

My 1975 Ruger M-77V in 6mm has the original stock and so on, and hasn't been 'babied' - but always gets 3 shot groups of about 1/2" OR LESS with 'a caseful' of 4831 and a carefully seated bullet. I use a 10-40x variable generally at 40 for rest shooting, and 10 if I shoot offhand (which I rarely do with that gun).

I think some guns are just more inherently accurate, just like some cars just run better. There are SOME brands which are 'usually' near-perfect, and some which usually aren't, but personally, if I got one of any brand which wouldn't do what I expected, I'd likely sell it, and try another, maybe same brand, maybe not (depends on how much I overall like the brand I guess). Some folks LIKE to tinker and would love to re-bed and try to work up a load for the 'fussy' gun, but I'm not that patient. Maybe if I were retired!

That original M-77 left me with a good feeling for Rugers, even though most people are either "Remington" or "Winchester" people. I've only owned one other Ruger M-77, and it isn't quite as accurate (maybe 1" groups consistently though).

If I had a bolt gun which wouldn't group under 1" or at least 1-1/2", I think I'd trade it in for a SAVAGE Model 10 (accutrigger) in the same chambering. They are affordable and extremely accurate.

IMHO if you want SMALL groups, you need a scope which gives you a close-up view; some people get 0.5" groups with a 4x scope or even peeps supposedly, but with me there is NO WAY! Give me not a 10x, not a 20x, but at least a 36x or 40x if you want sub-moa groups.

Now (since this IS a 'levergun' forum) what is "accurate" for a LEVERGUN...? Same standards, or do we give them handicap points for aesthetics or nostalgia or rapidity of followup fire?

[O.S.O.K.]

My guns shoot much more accurately on the internet than they do in the field - especially in front of witnesses. In fact, the one rifle that I have that will shoot 1" 10-shot groups at 200 yards barely hit a 6" gong at 75 yards while people were watching.

[AJMD429]

My guns shoot much more accurately on the internet than they do in the field - especially in front of witnesses. In fact, the one rifle that I have that will shoot 1" 10-shot groups at 200 yards barely hit a 6" gong at 75 yards while people were watching.

Me too - especially with my leverguns - they must be shy...

[Buffboy]

I've got a 700 in 270 that will hover around 3/4" all day with loads it likes and there are few loads it doesn't unless you try to get IMR 4831 to work under 130s. No way I could get that powder to shoot well. It works the best for my 90gr Sierra load though.

Ruger 77s are the fussiest rifles to get to shoot well IMO. None I've seen or owned would do sub minute out of the box. Now that doesn't mean people don't get lucky and get one out of the box but IME that's not the norm.

My Stainless 223 has a pressure point, I saw it was not bearing evenly when I bought it and fixed that. Now it's routine for my groups to be MOA or smaller with it with various bullets. My wife's stainless compact 243 is still a work in progress, but is 1.25 MOA so far at it's best. Her's still has a pressure point too. That doesn't mean Rugers need that pressure point, just that those two shoot well enough that I'm not gonna carve on them then start all over.

My brother's(now my Niece's) stainless 25-06 drove him nuts. It was a 3 MOA rifle when he bought it, factory or handload. He did all you said you did and it still wouldn't shoot like he wanted, then he found the magic. He switched primer brands and it suddenly came around to the tune of 1/2" from 2". Now it seems to do no wrong with those primers with most loads he tries. Woe be the deer or prairie dog that gives her a shot at less than 300 yards. She shot it twice deer hunting this year. She has got the biggest buck of our family for 3 years running with it.

I did the different primer trick with my Marlin 1893 in 38-55 with similar results. With it's preferred load I can shoot 1" groups with it most times with the stock irons off the bench. With a scope I expect it would be a bit better than that but I'm not gonna drill any holes in it so I'll never know. The wife's 35 rem will go about 1.5", again with irons. Her scoped Savage 99's best has been 1.5" off a bench, so far. You'd never know it from her though, it's the "Fist of GOD", it can do no wrong and I'm not telling her different.

I'd keep at it with that Ruger, try a pressure point under the barrel, try switching primers, try different cases. The magic is probably there, you just have to find it. If you don't find it, it's still pretty darn good.

As to your question: No they don't have to be MOA, but the challenge has always been to get the rifle and you as good as can be. It's still the operator that makes the difference hunting.

[marlinman93]

What's accurate? To me it depends on the age of the gun, and what it was designed to do.
For a new general use hunting rifle, if it wont keep them all under 3" at 100 yds. I'll take it back, sell it, or do something with it.
For my varmint rifle I want it to print under 1" at 100 yds. or it's not worth owning.
For my old collectable guns I'm a bit more flexible. If they shoot under 3" I'm happy, but if they shoot under 6" at 100 yds., then I'm still happy. I wont hunt with the ones that shoot 6" groups, but I'll still shoot 'em!

[morgan in nm]

With me, I compare what my father could have shot the rifle or handgun at his best. In other words, if it is a winchester lever action, I have seen him shoot groups out of a fairly worn(but not worn out) carbine to a group of 1.5" for a 3 shot at 100yds. At worst, about 6"(especially now that he is half blind due to age), so I figure if I could get close to 2" at 100, thats good enough for me. For the handgun it is much more difficult because he was never a real good shot with them but on a lever action, 30+ years as a ranch-hand sure makes a difference with the lever action. I tell you, it isn't fair how he can still shoot a leveraction so darn good and I can't. I can beat him with a handgun every time though so I guess it evens out. With them, non-adjustable sights, I load them to where I can hit a 6" disk at 35yds consistently.

[GANJIRO]

I'm happy with my open sight rifles 3" at 100 yards, scoped rifles 1.5" at 100 yards, and my rifled slug gun 4" at 100 yards. My most accurate rifle is a NEF Handi in .223 which shoots 3/4" groups all day. I'm concerned with hunting accuracy not target accuracy.

[20cows]

Sometimes an accurate rifle is a fluke or maybe even a stuff shoot.

I have a late war production, non-number matching Type 99 Arisaka that shot, at best 4" 100 yard groups with the 150 to 180 gr bullets it's supposed to use. Then I ran some 123 gr bullets made for the 7.62x39 through it and the group shrank to below an inch.

[GANJIRO]

Sometimes an accurate rifle is a fluke or maybe even a stuff shoot.

I have a late war production, non-number matching Type 99 Arisaka that shot, at best 4" 100 yard groups with the 150 to 180 gr bullets it's supposed to use. Then I ran some 123 gr bullets made for the 7.62x39 through it and the group shrank to below an inch.

Would you mind sharing that load? I also have a type 99 Arisaka and both 123 grain FMJs pulled from 7.62 x 39, and 210 grain GC cast bullets. I have Graf & Son brass to try. I tried 30-06 brass but gave up after split cases. You can PM me the recipe if you prefer. Thanks!

[carlg]

My late uncle always told the story about a bet made on his behalf. "Dick Griffiths can knock in 20 1 inch nails at 20 paces!"
He had a .22 rifle, no idea what make! He claimed he managed to do it, but cheated a bit by taking slightly short paces.
As youngsters in UK, we had great fun seeing who could place a .22 bullet into an arrow shaft & leave metal both sides at a 20 yards indoor range using the old Martini single shot target rifles. Today, I doubt if I can SEE an arrow at 20 yards!

[Bogie35]

My guns shoot much more accurately on the internet than they do in the field - especially in front of witnesses. In fact, the one rifle that I have that will shoot 1" 10-shot groups at 200 yards barely hit a 6" gong at 75 yards while people were watching.

This is like asking golfers how far they can hit their drivers. Many will tell you 300 yards, but it's actually closer to 200!

bogie

[junkbug]

86er?

Does your 7mm Rem Mag hold it's zero consistantly with a choosen load? You seem to be a person who gets to travel and hunt in many different loacations. If that rifle will hold its zero with a general duty load you are confident in, after traveling from place to place, then 2" at 100 yards is not all that bad.

I also know it is not uncommom for some of the best long range (300-600 yard ) loads in many different rifles to be less than the best performers at 100 yards. I don't know why that is.

What is the maximum range you would plan on using that rifle at?

Sean

[20cows]

I will have consult my records (I rechambered it to make it a 7.7-06) and get that to you after the parade today. My daughter is running in the local pageant and I have truck to decorate.

Oh, boy.

[JReed]

Lemme put it this way...

I almost never shoot off the Bench - where accuracy is optimized - because, outside of initial gross sight adjustment, it's not how people hunt.

With one exception (my 513T) my guns are offhand killing tools. It's "accurate" to me if I can consistently hit the vitals at the ranges I wish to shoot.

Cloverleafing is almost immaterial.

+1
I hardly ever shoot from a bench most of my shooting is done in the sitting or standing. Good standing accuracy for me is 4" @ 100yards now sitting is 2" or less @100 and that is with most of the long guns I own and that is good enough for me.

[Old Savage]

Most rifles are capable of 1" groups at 100 yd with their best loads in my experience. The couple I have that weren't responded to bedding and the two that were the worst are now among the best. A Ruger 77R in 7x57 would go 2 1/2" by 4" groups but after bedding the tang and recoil lug area and under the chamber and floating the barrel will shoot all the weights from 100 to 160 in an inch or better with the 100s being the best with a 1/3" group. The other is a Model 7 that wouldn't go under an inch - after bedding it will do an inch or better with most bullets.

I have found a load for all the rifle caliber levers that will shoot at least an inch for three shots. The 88 is the most finicky but will do very well with factory Federal 150's.

Unlike Buffboy I have had pretty good luck with Rugers with a 6mm, 2 270s and a 30-06 that all shot well out of the box. I will say that I never buy them unless I like the looks of the stock/metal fit and with the exception of the above mentioned 7x57 I don't order them.

Rems are better.

[Glenn]

86er,
AJMD429 said what I've found - Savage bolt rifles are about the most accurate you can get, especially in a working man's price range. They and the Rem. 700s tend, over-all, to be the most accurate factory rifles. Rugers, on average, lag behind a bit. For all the work you've put in it, there's something in the "system" that tweaking won't help. Probably barrel quality.
Glenn

[kimwcook]

I think accuracy is subjective to the mission at hand. Hunting big game is a lot different than shooting prairie dogs, etc..

2" groups with all the work you've had done to me is unsat.

[Buffboy]

86er,
AJMD429 said what I've found - Savage bolt rifles are about the most accurate you can get, especially in a working man's price range. They and the Rem. 700s tend, over-all, to be the most accurate factory rifles. Rugers, on average, lag behind a bit. For all the work you've put in it, there's something in the "system" that tweaking won't help. Probably barrel quality.
Glenn

Glenn, I agree completely though I think the "Ruger" statement applies to all flat bottomed receiver bolt guns. Round bottom receivers are more forgiving of those micro stresses that bedding creates. Barrels are very well made now and have been for 30+ years. So much so, that I find it difficult to believe that 86er's Ruger can't make it to 1 MOA eventually.

Bullets are so much better now that even my 1893 shoots at a level that would have been unbelievable when it was made.

In a moment of weakness about 8 years ago I let my Remington 700 varmint in 223 go to my brother and he won't sell it back to me even though he has other varmint rifles now. It's that good and it's not rare or unusually accurate for the breed.

My cousin has 3 Cooper varmint rifles, a couple Kimber varmint rifles, and a 40X Remington in 6mm International that his father bought new in 1970. He reloads with the best components that money can buy, BR primers, top of the line BR bullets. He is beyond anal about quality of his reloads. He whines about 1/2" groups at 200 yards being not good enough. He shoots a lot of "varminter" competitions. On occasion he does well, though I don't know if he's ever won one. You know what the brand is that consistently beats him at these "stock" class competitions? Savage does. He bought one recently and it will shoot smaller groups than any of his Coopers and cost 1/5th of any of them.

His 40X still rules(his best has been .25 at 200M) but it doesn't qualify for the stock class and is now way outclassed in the unlimited. You certainly couldn't carry it hunting unless you're built like the Hulk.

All of this is interesting in an abstract way. None of this means much in the hunting fields though my cousin did shoot a very nice buck with his 25-06 Cooper a couple years ago. In that case my 38-55 would have done as well. My wife's 35rem would have done as well too. For that matter my 454 carbine would have worked or the 1894C marlin. Any of 86er's rifles would have made the grade. The shot was 150 yards at a standing deer and was not hurried. It still all comes down to: can YOU can make the shot.

From all I've heard, 86er has good ethics and knows his rifles. If he shoots, it's because HE believes he can make the shot. That is the mark of the ethical hunter. Knowing the limitation of your equipment and yourself with the yourself part as the most important is how that works.

Sheesh, I'm preaching, you guys know all this. Time for bed.

[20cows]

Well, I finally had time to get back to my load log book. I had disrembered a few details

This is the most accurate load I got with my 7.7 Arisaka:

Brass- Norma

Bullet- Hornady #3140, a 123 gr. spire point. (When it first came out it was sized .311, but was later changed to .310. This didn't change my results much.)

Primer- CCI 200

Powder- IMR 4895, 49 gr

According to my records, the best group I got with this was 1.75". Later I rechambered this rifle to 7.7-06 and played around with H414. In this configuration I got the 3/4" group. I suspect I could have gotten similar results with the H414 before the rechamber.

Oh, the parade?

Here's the decorated truck and my daughter


Some folks'll do anything for a ride!


A proud daddy and his little girl

[Ray Newman]

I predominantly shoot single shot black powder cartridge rifles w/ a Duplex charge (for fouling control) & plain lead base bullets.

Any time any of my rifles shoot 10 consecutive shot groups off the bench @ 1.5 to 2 MOA @ any given day & @ any given range, I feel is accurate enough.

A Shooter really need to consider his/her own standards, considering shooting ability, eyesight, position, ammuntion (factory or reloaded), type of rfle or pistol.

[rjohns94]

So long as I hit the game animal where I want to hit it, the rifle is accuate enough. In august, I shot 4 animals on the ranch. I hit the buff at 65-70yds in the exact spot I wanted to hit it - result was the buff took no steps. I hit the nilgai at a bit further distance, same result, no steps. Both of those rifles were "accurate" in my book. Ugly duck performed its job at 20+ yards, hitting the ram exactly where I wanted, the bullet, didn't do its job. Still accurate just didn't get the job done. The 4th animal, was a spine shot on the blackbuck, 60 yards or so, again, exactly where I wanted to hit. I shot the buff from one knee, the nilgai on a rest, the goat and blackbuck offhand. If a rifle shoots to point of aim from rests or not and collects game, then I am happy with the accuacy. My natl match M1A shoots 1 - 1.5 MOA out to 600 yards, from three positions. I believe it is accurate for its purpose as far as I feed it the ammo it likes. If you aren't happy with the rifle, trade it and get another. Accuracy is one of those subjective things that you know it when you see it. I am more than happy to have my .22lr marlin to shoot Min of Squirrel Head at 25-40 yards. Accuracy is in the beholder. We can't tell you what is or isnt accuate

[CowboyTutt]

"Minute of Pork" works for me.

-Tutt

[Old Savage]

Congrats for you and your daughter - looks like a great time.