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On the way to Tulsa last weekend, we stopped at Pop's on Route 66. Picked up a little soft-bound book Oklahoma Outlaw Tales. Fun little read that contains a number of stories concerning Oklahoma based outlaws from the end of the Civil War to about 1925.
One of the stories concerns Jim Miller of Texas who worked as a paid assassin. The author has a comment in the story along the lines of "It is generally believed his claim to have killed 51 men is true.".
My question is, how can deaths from over 100 years ago be confirmed, especially if the killer worked from an ambush which was Miller's preferred method? It seems to me there was a lot of hearsay involved in the investigations of the time and of course there weren't near the investigative methods and sciences there are now to compensate for a lack of witnesses. We know certain types of killers like to exaggerate their body counts, who's to say Miller and his type didn't do the same thing?
FWIW, Miller was somehow related to John Wesley Hardin. I would imagine family reunions could get a bit hairy...
If these walls could talk, I'd listen to the floor.
I dunno about them guys, but I keep DNA samples to ensure payment...
Wait, did I say that aloud?
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
awp101 wrote:On the way to Tulsa last weekend, we stopped at Pop's on Route 66. Picked up a little soft-bound book Oklahoma Outlaw Tales. Fun little read that contains a number of stories concerning Oklahoma based outlaws from the end of the Civil War to about 1925.
One of the stories concerns Jim Miller of Texas who worked as a paid assassin. The author has a comment in the story along the lines of "It is generally believed his claim to have killed 51 men is true.".
My question is, how can deaths from over 100 years ago be confirmed, especially if the killer worked from an ambush which was Miller's preferred method? It seems to me there was a lot of hearsay involved in the investigations of the time and of course there weren't near the investigative methods and sciences there are now to compensate for a lack of witnesses. We know certain types of killers like to exaggerate their body counts, who's to say Miller and his type didn't do the same thing?
FWIW, Miller was somehow related to John Wesley Hardin. I would imagine family reunions could get a bit hairy...
Maybe you'd like a serious answer? (you GUYS!)
Without speaking to a specific person, I think that in general populations being much smaller made a big difference in how people judged the truth of any particular statement. First, they likely knew at least one of the parties. Second, they likely had an idea what most of the people in their area (particularly rural) who might have been involved were likely doing. There was probably a couple of people who had a pretty good idea as to how truthful and/or reliable an observer any given "witness" might be. So, when you read something like, "It is generally believed his claim to have killed 51 men is true," it is just about right. Most folks believed it to be true for one or more reasons.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie wrote:[Maybe you'd like a serious answer? (you GUYS!)
No offense taken, Heaven knows I've earned every smart aleck comment given my role as a professional smartarse...
I didn't consider the smaller, tighter knit communities of the time. Plus any stranger would stand out, especially after the fact when trying to sort out what happened to an individual.
Thanks!
If these walls could talk, I'd listen to the floor.
My guess would be that if Miller was hired, and the guy ended up dead, they probably assumed he did it. I suppose if someone else killed a guy he was hired to kill, then he got paid anyway, but I doubt that. Much of this was taken from original newspaper accounts, which often surmised that if a guy like Miller came to town, and someone ended up dead, they reported what they thought happened. I'd guess they were probably right too.
If he didn't kill 51, or if he killed more than 51, it's no big deal. It's just interesting old west history.
dang...i made another response to this thread and it didn't take for some reason.
according to "encylclopedia of western gunfighters" by bill o'neal, published by university of okla, norman jim miller was documented to have slain 12 men, took part in 14 gunfights and "assisted" in one other gunfight.
if you think you're influencial, try telling someone else's dog what to do---will rogers
I look at it like this, Is it possible"Yes" We know how some bad guys back than had no respect for human life just like now a days. We have had killers in our time take the life of 20 or 30 women before getting caught. I could see in those days when there was not must law enforcement around and bad guys could go and take 51 lifes and get away with it for awhile. Folks back then believed stories like that because they seen death all the time in many towns..etc.
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"James "Jim" P. Miller, aka: "Deacon" Miller (1866-1909) - Miller, born in Arkansas in 1866, was seemingly one of those "bad seeds" almost from the beginning. When he was still very young, he was orphaned and sent to live with his grandparents in Coryell County, Texas. When Miller was 8, his grandparents were murdered, and the boy was arrested for the crime. However, he was not prosecuted because of his age and was then sent to live his sister. Never getting along with her husband, John Coop, he shot and killed him when he was 18. Prosecuted and convicted, he won the case on appeal and was acquitted. He soon hooked up with an outlaw gang in Saba County, Texas, robbing trains and stagecoaches, and often killing in the process.
Though his reputation wasn't stellar, Miller also served briefly as a deputy sheriff and a Texas Ranger. Though Miller wasn't known for being "fast" with a gun, he was known as a mean hombre and by the late 1880's he was working as a gun for hire. During this time he is thought committed eight murders in his new line of work, as well as being involved in another six killings in saloon disputes. In April, 1909, Miller, along with three other men by the names of Jesse West, Joe Allen, and Berry B. Burrell, were arrested for the killing of Oklahoma rancher Gus Bobbitt and taken to the Ada, Oklahoma jail. Though it was well-known in the area that Miller and the others had killed Bobbitt in a murder-for-hire scheme, the evidence was not solid. Aware of this, a lynch mob of more than 150 men stormed the jail on April 19th, over powered the deputies and dragged the four men outside. All four were hanged in a livery stable behind the jail."
Thanks all! I was thinking a lot of the "confirmation" was based on braggadocio and suspicion.
marlinman93 wrote:"James "Jim" P. Miller, aka: "Deacon" Miller (1866-1909) - Miller, born in Arkansas in 1866, was seemingly one of those "bad seeds" almost from the beginning. When he was still very young, he was orphaned and sent to live with his grandparents in Coryell County, Texas. When Miller was 8, his grandparents were murdered, and the boy was arrested for the crime. However, he was not prosecuted because of his age and was then sent to live his sister. Never getting along with her husband, John Coop, he shot and killed him when he was 18. Prosecuted and convicted, he won the case on appeal and was acquitted. He soon hooked up with an outlaw gang in Saba County, Texas, robbing trains and stagecoaches, and often killing in the process.
Though his reputation wasn't stellar, Miller also served briefly as a deputy sheriff and a Texas Ranger. Though Miller wasn't known for being "fast" with a gun, he was known as a mean hombre and by the late 1880's he was working as a gun for hire. During this time he is thought committed eight murders in his new line of work, as well as being involved in another six killings in saloon disputes. In April, 1909, Miller, along with three other men by the names of Jesse West, Joe Allen, and Berry B. Burrell, were arrested for the killing of Oklahoma rancher Gus Bobbitt and taken to the Ada, Oklahoma jail. Though it was well-known in the area that Miller and the others had killed Bobbitt in a murder-for-hire scheme, the evidence was not solid. Aware of this, a lynch mob of more than 150 men stormed the jail on April 19th, over powered the deputies and dragged the four men outside. All four were hanged in a livery stable behind the jail."
The Ada story is the one in the book. The lynching was done at night and a photographer showed up the next morning to capture the scene. There's two photo's of the event in the book IIRC.
If these walls could talk, I'd listen to the floor.
There were a lot of stories about old west figures, many which could not be proven. Remember, based on family spoken history and such, one man's hero may be another's villain---and vice versa. It did take tough men to live in those times, no matter what.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
I have an intersting reference book:
"Encyclopedia of Western Gunfighters," by Bill O'Neal
The book lists detailed accounts of most (if not all) reported gunfights of the old west. It also has a table of gunfighters and their confirmed number of kills. Jim Miller is at the top of the list, with 12 confirmed and 1 possible. It does state, however, that he likely killed many more including many Mexicans along the border.
So, to answer your question, there is no way to know for sure except the actual number of witnessed, confirmed killings.
You asked about the Miller-Hardin connection. Jim Miller married Sallie Clements, daughter of Emmanuel "Mannie" Clements. The Clements and Harden were cousins.
