Winchester 94 timeline?

[FLINT]

Hi all, I was wondering if anyone knew of one document or website, etc that had an exhaustive timeline of the various changes to the winchester 94? I've done searches here and on the web in general and there are little bits of information all over, but hard to find some other things, and it seems like it would be helpful to have one list or timeline of all the changes.

Things like:
first and last years that each caliber was in production
when did the name change to 94 from 1894
what years exactly are considered "pre-war" is this a real thing even? I hear about it but haven't been able to find any concrete info.
when did they stop offering so many options? crescent butt plate, octagon barrel, different length magazines, etc.
when did they stop making the saddle ring carbines?
actual years that various manufacturing changes occurred.
flat band years?
angle eject
rebounding hammer
safeties
and I'm as concerned about 'special editions' as actual changes that effected all or most rifles from year to year.

[Pete44ru]

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It's all in Robert C. Renneberg's The Winchester 94 - A Century of Craftmanship".




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[Griff]

Hi all, I was wondering if anyone knew of one document or website, etc that had an exhaustive timeline of the various changes to the winchester 94? I've done searches here and on the web in general and there are little bits of information all over, but hard to find some other things, and it seems like it would be helpful to have one list or timeline of all the changes.

Things like:
first and last years that each caliber was in production
when did the name change to 94 from 1894
what years exactly are considered "pre-war" is this a real thing even? I hear about it but haven't been able to find any concrete info.
when did they stop offering so many options? crescent butt plate, octagon barrel, different length magazines, etc.
when did they stop making the saddle ring carbines?
actual years that various manufacturing changes occurred.
flat band years?
angle eject
rebounding hammer
safeties
and I'm as concerned about 'special editions' as actual changes that effected all or most rifles from year to year.

There's some consternation about certain 'facts' as contained in Madis' "The Winchester Book", but that's as good as any place to start to answer most of your questions.

But, off the top of my head, and just about as accurate as I can be without consulting several books:
first and last years that each caliber was in production - almost all the calibers were available throughout it's production, .32-40 & .38-55 in 1894, .30WCF in 1895, .32 Special in 1901, IDK about the .25-35
when did the name change to 94 from 1894 - ~1921
what years exactly are considered "pre-war" is this a real thing even? I hear about it but haven't been able to find any concrete info. - I've always thought this was pre-WWII, but I could be wrong
when did they stop offering so many options? crescent butt plate, octagon barrel, different length magazines, etc. - 1930s
when did they stop making the saddle ring carbines? - early to mid 1920s, came to be considered "Eastern Carbines
actual years that various manufacturing changes occurred. - that's a real toughie... a lot of changes occurred, a book could be written about them, and I'd hate to deprive you of the enjoyment of your own research!
flat band years? - WWII thru a couple of years after... latest one I've heard of is 1949, but even that's subject to argument
angle eject - 1983
rebounding hammer - ~1993
safeties - cross bolt began in ~1992, tang in 2005
and I'm as concerned about 'special editions' as actual changes that effected all or most rifles from year to year:

You have to remember, that many of Winchester's records were burned in a fire... and so... getting detailed information is quite difficult... I have quite a few, almost at least one from each decade from introduction thru the take over by US Repeating Arms... I'm only missing a 1940s version... (folks are either in love with or have trashed their "flat band" for me to buy one). Actual production by serial number is only available up to about serial number 383,xxx. Those are the only ones that the Cody Museum (which holds the Winchester records), will "letter". In the last few years there was a "polishing room" record that was discovered, and it's thrown many of Madis' assertions in his book into question.

Plus, throughout it's production, Winchester assemblers didn't take a receiver and finish it in numerical order... they came into assembly in batches, as with the parts... so a lower serial number may have newer parts, than an older serial number... During major changes, like the '63 products to the '64 versions, the parts that were changed were then scrapped (sold to places like Numrich as "new-old stock" and the new parts used exclusively. This didn't happen with either previous or subsequent changes, like the carrier change that came about 1972. My 1970 has the stamped carrier, as does my '67, but both my '71 and '72 mdl 64A have the cast one... yet, I'm told it wasn't changed until 1972. I have 4 carbines that were made in the late 70s, post '75, the earliest a '76 BiCentennial, it has the coil mainspring with guide rod.... and is the earliest I've heard of, yet I'm told it was started in '75.

The 'top eject' was discontinued with the take over by USRA, yet there are 1993-1994 production guns that of 3 grades that were 1894-1994 Centennials that were top eject and had the cross bolt safety. The lowest grade was plain except for the "1894-1994 Centennial" marking, an engraved, blued and a plated engraved version. These are not to be confused with the regular 1994 production of mdl 94AEs, which were all marked "1894-1994". But, IIRC, they lacked the "Centennial" portion that was stamped on the top eject commemoratives.

There are a number of books that will assist you in discovering some of these for yourself. The Numrich website with it's parts listings will also be valuable as to changes at certain serial numbers... but... don't take all of these as gospel, for there is some evidence that some changes were made as I described above. However, changes to the actual receiver are pretty accurate. As in the change from "eared" to "ear-less" lower tangs... You can use the ear-less tang in an earlier receiver, but... obviously, without some modification not the other way around. Same thing with hammers, sears & triggers... but, the lower tang also requires the new style hammer, trigger & sear; yet, you can change the rebounding feature to a non-rebounder with specific pats. I've assembled several receivers (older post 64s) using the newer style parts with the addition of very late non-rebounding, hammers and hammer struts.

A great resource is the Winchester Collector Assoc.

[J Miller]

The rebounding hammer action was introduced in 83 or 84. My 1985 vintage 94AE Trapper came with it.

Joe

[Griff]

The rebounding hammer action was introduced in 83 or 84. My 1985 vintage 94AE Trapper came with it.

Joe

I never picked up an AE until 1992... and put it right back down!!! Told ya, I'd be wrong!

[FLINT]

Thanks Griff, that is very helpful.

About the flatband, I have a flatband 32ws with serial number 1522xxx, so they at least made them that late. But like you said, it was totally trashed when I got it.

[Griff]

Thanks Griff, that is very helpful.

About the flatband, I have a flatband 32ws with serial number 1522xxx, so they at least made them that late. But like you said, it was totally trashed when I got it.

I believe that falls in the accepted 1949 range... http://www.winchesterguns.com/support/f ... uments.pdf

[Malamute]

when did the name change to 94 from 1894

what years exactly are considered "pre-war" is this a real thing even? I hear about it but haven't been able to find any concrete info.

when did they stop making the saddle ring carbines?

actual years that various manufacturing changes occurred.

flat band years?

Griff may be correct on dropping the "18" part of the model name. I thought it was late teens. I think it started with some stamping dies that were damaged, the "18" removed to keep using them, and eventually they just stopped with the "18" part altogether. I'm not sure it was a single point of time.

Pre-war is pre World War II

The so-called saddle ring carbines were slowly dropped in the 20's. The basic early type carbine without a sling/saddle ring was an eastern carbine according to Madis. They were otherwise identical, only without the sling ring. Madis stated that the "Eastern carbines" were generally shipped to locations east of the Mississippi. Winchester stopped putting the rings on carbines in the 20's except on special order. Other aspects of the early type carbine slowly disappeared over several years in the mid-late 20's to early 30's. The small stud type front sight with pinned blade, with the front band in front of it gave way to a ramped sight with the band behind it, the leaf type carbine rear sight (called ladder sights today) were changed to rifle type rear sights, the carbine type butt stock was changed to a shotgun butt. Somewhere along the way in the 30's I believe, the butt stock tang inletting beside the hammer was changed to the later style.

"The Winchester Book" by George Madis goes into great detail on all these things, along with changes in barrel markings etc, small variations in sights, butt plates, stocks, and about any other thing you could imagine.

I find the like in the flat bands somewhat interesting. I guess from the collector/rarity standpoint they would hold some interest. When I used to see them at shows, with not outrageous prices, the first thing I ever thought of is what it would cost to get rid of the ugly front band and replace it with a normal one. It was a cost saving measure during the war.

[J Miller]

The rebounding hammer action was introduced in 83 or 84. My 1985 vintage 94AE Trapper came with it.

Joe

I never picked up an AE until 1992... and put it right back down!!! Told ya, I'd be wrong!

I wanted a lever gun in .45 Colt in the worst way so I bit my tongue and bought it anyway. Traded for it actually. I tried and tried and tried to learn to like it, but could not. The trigger pull was outrageously heavy and creepy. Eventually I worked it down to a nice 3 +- pounds but still couldn't get used to it.
Then the front sight got broke off the barrel and I had to send it back to the factory for a new barrel. This one has the skinny barrel and there's no room for a dovetail. No local gunsmith would touch it to make a new front sight, so I had little choice.
When I got it back they had put a new action in it and the new trigger pull was far worse than the original one.
I said to h.e.l.l. with it and bought the half cock action from Numrich and swapped it out. Never looked back. I'll never buy a rebounding hammer gun again. "THAT" is chiseled in stone.

Joe

[FLINT]

I own 8 leverguns and not one has a rebounding hammer - though not necessarily intentionally. I actually had to do a search for a description of what it actually was. Now that I know, I'm glad that I don't have one. Must be weird to not have half-cock on a lever gun. Actually, my 10ga stevens break action has half cock also. funny how the break action guns escaped all of the safety features that have plagued leverguns.

[J Miller]

Flint,

Wanna here something weirder?

Winchester:
The 94 center fires went to the rebounding hammer action then got a safety too.
The 9422 retained the original half cock action with no added safety till production ended in '05.

The Marlin center fires retained their half cock action but got a cross bolt safety till production ended.
The Marlin rim fires got the rebounding hammer and cb safety.

Basically Marlin and Winchester did the same thing, but in reverse.

Both ruined their product lines with the safeties and rebounding hammers. Oh well.

Joe

[twobit]

Flint asked:

first and last years that each caliber was in production

Here are the first rifles for each caliber:
38-55 Rifle - serial number 24, 10-22-1894
38-55 Carbine - serial number 46, 3-36-1895 (by serial number order)
38-55 Carbine - serial number 471, 11-1-1894 (by date order)

32-40 Rifle - serial number 692, 12-14-1894
32-40 Carbine - serial number 1409, 1-18-1895

30 W.C.F. Rifle - serial number 3314, 5-29-1895
30 W.C.F. Carbine - serial number 4787, 6-24-1895

25-35 W.C.F. Rifle - serial number 5014, 7-18-1895
25-35 W.C.F. Carbine - serial number 6506, 10-1-1895

32 W.S. Rifle - serial number 107731, 10-5-1901
32 W.S. Carbine - serial number 22967, 8-27-1902 (by serial number order)
32 W.S. Carbine - serial number 142889, 5-10-1902 (by date order)

The change from MODEL 1894 to MODEL 94 was a deliberate change by Winchester to "update their product line by removing the "18" portion. This was done for all "1800" Models at the same time.

"Pre-war" refers to before WW II

Flat band guns were introduced in 1946 and ended at the end of 1948.

Michael

[Griff]

Michael,

Every time I see that listing of calibers for the mdl 94... it always makes me wonder, what cartridge serial #1 was chambered for? Or 2... 3... etc. Is that just me?

[Old Savage]

Gosh, and here I am liking my 94s and all rebounding, got the cross bolt and the tang and none. Like the AEs. Big Bore Crossbolt, rebounding ... The whole package there. Love the tang model.

[twobit]

Griff wrote:

Michael,
Every time I see that listing of calibers for the mdl 94... it always makes me wonder, what cartridge serial #1 was chambered for? Or 2... 3... etc. Is that just me?

I have not seen the first page of the factory ledgers to be able to answer you question but I would put money on that they were 38-55 caliber rifles.

Michael

[FLINT]

"Pre-war" refers to before WW II

Ok, so I'm getting the impression that the "pre-war" designation is just a relative reference to guns made before WWII. And that there is no specific date at which manufacturing changed. I think its just that I've heard people refer to 'pre-war' guns as being better in some way, and I was just wondering specifically what the differences were and what years those differences were included. but it seems its just a generality. that maybe those built before the war had a little more attention to fit and finish, etc. ??

[Pete44ru]

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I understand your need for definition, but please understand that there was usually no definite cutoff date for most of the changes. (pre/post 1964 being one of the "definite" changes)

The reason that "after-the-fact" Winchester collectors use the term "about SN (whatever)" to define a difference/change is that Winchester (ever parsimonious) didn't just stop assembling guns one day, so the new/different parts could be used - the new/different parts were simply made and placed into parts bins that still had the "old style" parts.

The assemblers just grabbed a part that could be either "old" or "new", and installed the part into whatever gun they happened to be working on at the time.


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[Canuck Bob]

A few more question I may have missed above.

When did the 1964 major changes improve, like the cast carrier?
Did all post-64s have the funky metal finish often reported?

I'm saving this for the future and want to try and nail down the best post-64 years. Like pre rebound/safety, post stamped carrier, years were finish was ordinary bluing, etc.. I'm hoping there is a range that is less troublesome.

[roughcreek]

I am no expert, but the following is a method I use when at gun shows or see an ad I might like.
I have gotten this info from various books and use s/n rather that mfg date. Don't know how
accurate it is but serves me.

500,000 - 1,200,000 had flaking metal receivers
1,027,572 proof steel barrels started
1,100,000 ramp sight started
<1,300,000 considered the best workmanship
< 1,900,000 did not have tapped holes in rec. for peep sight
2,600,011 last pre 64 gun

[Pete44ru]

A few more question I may have missed above.

When did the 1964 major changes improve, like the cast carrier? - In 1970, for the 1971 model year.

Did all post-64s have the funky metal finish often reported ? - No, only the top-ejects from 1964 through 1982 (when the (94AE angle eject was introduced) - not including the 1978-82 BB94's (Big Bore 94's).

I'm saving this for the future and want to try and nail down the best post-64 years. Like pre rebound/safety, post stamped carrier, years were finish was ordinary bluing, etc.. I'm hoping there is a range that is less troublesome.

Winchester changed the process of making post-64 Model 94 receivers 3x between 1964 & 1982 and the 1983 return to a forged steel receiver.

1964-68 "mystery" sintered metal alloy, the "Dulite 3.0 process".
1969-72 sintered metal alloy, the "Dulite Black Chrome Plate"
1972-82 iron-plated Sintered metal alloy, blued normally after the iron plating with Dulite's "WinBlue/Oxiblack".

The argueably "best" years for the top-eject Model 94's were from 1971 to 1982; for the angle eject Model 94's were from 1983 to the introduction of the CBS (crossbolt safety) in 1992 (the tang safety came in 2003; the rebounding hammer came in 1990).


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[Griff]

My favorite action in a mdl 94 is the post '75 coil mainspring.

[PriseDeFer]

Try graphitic steel for sintered. http://www.dulite.com/dulite_94_win_oxide.html

[Canuck Bob]

This could qualify as a sticky. I sure appreciate the details.

[FLINT]

Yes, the cumulative knowledge of the kind folks here is amazing. Its great to have all of this information in one place.

[J Miller]

A few more question I may have missed above.

When did the 1964 major changes improve, like the cast carrier? - In 1970, for the 1971 model year.

Did all post-64s have the funky metal finish often reported ? - No, only the top-ejects from 1964 through 1982 (when the (94AE angle eject was introduced) - not including the 1978-82 BB94's (Big Bore 94's).

I'm saving this for the future and want to try and nail down the best post-64 years. Like pre rebound/safety, post stamped carrier, years were finish was ordinary bluing, etc.. I'm hoping there is a range that is less troublesome.

Winchester changed the process of making post-64 Model 94 receivers 3x between 1964 & 1982 and the 1983 return to a forged steel receiver.

1964-68 "mystery" sintered metal alloy, the "Dulite 3.0 process".
1969-72 sintered metal alloy, the "Dulite Black Chrome Plate"
1972-82 iron-plated Sintered metal alloy, blued normally after the iron plating with Dulite's "WinBlue/Oxiblack".

The argueably "best" years for the top-eject Model 94's were from 1971 to 1982; for the angle eject Model 94's were from 1983 to the introduction of the CBS (crossbolt safety) in 1992 (the tang safety came in 2003; the rebounding hammer came in 1990).


.

Pete,
The rebounding hammer came in much earlier than 1990. Closer to 81 or so. Like I said above my 85 Vintage Trapper came with the rebounding action.

Here is a copy and paste from former member OD:

Win 94AE Time Line: by OD

OD
Advanced Levergunner

Vatican City
2547 Posts Posted - 02/28/2005 : 22:50:28

Rebounding hammer introduced 1981
Angle Eject introduced 1983
.45 Colt Trapper model introduced 1985
Hammers drilled and tapped for offset extension introduced 1986
Bull barrels introduced for Trappers 1991
Link pin retaining screw returns in 1991
Cross bolt safety introduced 1992
Tang safety introduced 2004 (Modoc ED says 2003)
Mdl 94, 70 and 1300 discontinued March 2006

Dan
'94 Winchester Fan
"Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...."

Joe

[Griff]

None of the Top Ejects had a rebounding hammer. That's thru 1982. From serial # 4,580,000 the TE hammer only has one slot for the hammer strut. It wasn't until sometime during the AE production that the hammer has the necessary 2 slots for the two legs of that rebounding style strut.

[BoarHunter99]

Good morning everyone - I would appreciate if you could help me to know the year of manufacture of my Winchester 94AE serial number 63163XX is a 444 marlin caliber.
Very grateful in advance !!

[Bridger]

I’ll throw in that approximately 1950 the fore-end wood was shortened by (I think) 1 1/8”.

I guess as a cost saving thing but I will say the short wood doesn’t look as good.

[OldWin]

My favorite action in a mdl 94 is the post '75 coil mainspring.

I like the mid 70s to early 80s the best of the post 64s, too. I'm not a big fan of the coil mainspring though. Just doesn't feel right to me.
The rebounder, however, are abhorrent. I cannot abide them. I converted the only one I've had to a late 60s lower tang assembly and FCG.

I’ll throw in that approximately 1950 the fore-end wood was shortened by (I think) 1 1/8”.

I guess as a cost saving thing but I will say the short wood doesn’t look as good.

I agree it was mostly for cost savings, but I think to some degree it was to alleviate the cracking of the earlier ones in front of the band. They split easily if a carbine was dropped on the top of the barrel. The wood was thin there.

[Griff]

Good morning everyone - I would appreciate if you could help me to know the year of manufacture of my Winchester 94AE serial number 63163XX is a 444 marlin caliber.
Very grateful in advance !!

According to Winchester's website it was after 1991.

[FLINT]

short wood doesn’t look as good.

That's what she said

[AJMD429]

I said to h.e.l.l. with it and bought the half cock action from Numrich and swapped it out. Never looked back. I'll never buy a rebounding hammer gun again. "THAT" is chiseled in stone.

I agree. Those actions feel like a poorly made cheap Chinese kid's toy that got stepped on and broke....

I have ONE gun with that kind of hammer; a 410 breakopen shotgun.

No more.

Ever.