Grizzlies and the 30-30
Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16793
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
All I am saying is that there may be those that have stopped grizzlies in on fashion or time or situation with a 30-30 but I wouldn't want to do it as a plan but it is plenty safe here at the keyboard.
- Canuck Bob
- Senior Levergunner
- Posts: 1830
- Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:57 am
- Location: Calgary, Canada
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Wow, this thread has some legs. I have been reading and thinking of this for days now. If purposely hunting grizzly I would want my 444 loaded stout with 300 grain Swift A-frame bullets. While hunting a man must hunt down wounded dangerous game. That is very dangerous business. Going into the willows after a griz or black bear I want two things, my 444 and a sturdy rifleman I trust with hopefuly a bigger cannon.
If loafing in griz country I will be very happy with my 32 Special. Encounters are rare and I practice sensible choices as to where I loaf. I will carry a 22 or 32-20 when loafing in deer country and the forest near farming country. But the 32 Special is perfect for the foothills, mountains, or the remoter areas I go for work.
If loafing in griz country I will be very happy with my 32 Special. Encounters are rare and I practice sensible choices as to where I loaf. I will carry a 22 or 32-20 when loafing in deer country and the forest near farming country. But the 32 Special is perfect for the foothills, mountains, or the remoter areas I go for work.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Old Savage wrote:All I am saying is that there may be those that have stopped grizzlies in on fashion or time or situation with a 30-30 but I wouldn't want to do it as a plan but it is plenty safe here at the keyboard.
With all due respect my friend, a 45/70 of yours failed to stop a deer recently I recall. (IIRC)
Please correct me if I am wrong
N.
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!
-
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 2569
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:51 pm
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
getitdone1 wrote:
It might , if there were always 15 guys there armed with them....A single shot 30 carbine might not work so well--over time.
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
WIL TERRY
WIL TERRY
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16793
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
You are right there Nath, still a bit puzzling for what we think, and that was three right through the chest and lungs, a bloody mess inside I will tell you. Kirk told be he experienced the same thing with 12 ga slugs. BUT, I would not go to less power if more did not work. And of course mine were those copper condor bullets. Not sure how they performed but it would suggest that they did not open. I did fry up some of the back strap though last week. Some days you eat the deer and I don't want the bear eating you. I always enjoy those photographic adventures of yours.
tough bugger!
tough bugger!
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
FUR-FISH-GAME magazine issue September 2011 has a short story about enraged grizzlies. A cattle ranch manager (in BC, Canada) killed two large grizzlies with three shots from his Ruger semi-auto carbine in 44 MAG. The story is well written and recommended to all.
Shot placement got the job done quite well, indeed!
TR
Shot placement got the job done quite well, indeed!
TR
Fire Up the Grill - Hunting is NOT Catch & Release!
-
- Levergunner 3.0
- Posts: 933
- Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:08 am
- Location: Salmon Creek, SW Washington
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
I couldn't agree more!t.r. wrote: A cattle ranch manager (in BC, Canada) killed two large grizzlies with three shots from his Ruger semi-auto carbine in 44 MAG. The story is well written and recommended to all.
2x22
"Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." - Thomas Jefferson
- KirkD
- Desktop Artiste
- Posts: 4406
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:52 am
- Location: Central Ontario, Canada
- Contact:
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Old Savage, last fall a fellow I was hunting with nailed a Whitetail buck with his 7 mm Rem Mag at about 30 yards. The buck bolted around 100 yards into the bush. We found it there and I helped clean it. The shot blew the heart to rags, completely detaching the heart from everything and making it almost unrecognizable. Still that deer bolted almost 100 yards before it fell. I think your 45-70 did what it was supposed to do .... turn the vitals into a mess, but some deer just run even if you hit them with a massive whallop.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Kirk makes a good point. Sometimes they don't just drop dead at the shot, even tho they "should".
Yes, many have slain grizzlies with 30-30's, but we never know how a particular animal will react to the shot. That's the main reason I tend to go with larger caliber guns in grizzly country. I quit carrying the 30-30 in grizzly country, not much reason to when I have some fine rifles in heavier calibers, like 45-70 and 348. No guarantees with anything, but the larger calibers give more margin for error in shot placement, penetration and bone breaking ability. Not saying you shouldnt care about making a good shot, or can get sloppy, just that with more penetration, you have a better chance of hitting and breaking something important farther in if you don't make a perfect shot.
Yes, many have slain grizzlies with 30-30's, but we never know how a particular animal will react to the shot. That's the main reason I tend to go with larger caliber guns in grizzly country. I quit carrying the 30-30 in grizzly country, not much reason to when I have some fine rifles in heavier calibers, like 45-70 and 348. No guarantees with anything, but the larger calibers give more margin for error in shot placement, penetration and bone breaking ability. Not saying you shouldnt care about making a good shot, or can get sloppy, just that with more penetration, you have a better chance of hitting and breaking something important farther in if you don't make a perfect shot.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
-
- Levergunner
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:17 pm
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
A good point to remember is that bullet type and placement are the imprtant things. Calber really doesnt matter. If you put a 190 grain hard cast (Buffalo Bore) from a 30-30 in the right place it will kill anything on the planet. A 500 grain from a 45-70 in the wrong pace won't kill anything. W.M.D. Bell Took about 800 Elephants with a 7x57 using a 170 grain solid at about 2300 FPS. Mostly one shot kills, He also used a 6.5x54, and a 303 British. It dosen't matter what size your hand cannon is you have to do your part.
- horsesoldier03
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:32 pm
- Location: Kansas
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
My daughter had a young dog (Lab) that she had raised and she always let the dog get between her feet when we were out in the field. Before long, every time something happened that darn dog would run up between her feet or mine for a feeling of safety. Finally I explained to her that if we were in a true emergency situation, at dog between your feet is a true hazard and that if she didnt start kicking that dog every time she did that, I would probably end up shooting the dog if it ever caused an emergency situation. She got real serious about breaking that dog from that habit.
Gun Control is not about guns, it is about control!
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Observation: man who killed 50+ grizzlies in his career prefers the .35 Remington; men who may have never seen a grizzly opine that .375 ain't enough. Interesting...
-
- Senior Levergunner
- Posts: 1263
- Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:57 pm
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Really if you think about it 125 years ago, the 30-30 was the new ultra fast round, kinda like the 6.5 Creedmore today. That said, bear hunting I carry my 338 Winchester Magnum or my 50 Alaskan lever action. They have put down the 6 bears I have killed with authority. You do need 1, 2 and 3 to get it done and 3 is least important I agree.AJMD429 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:24 am 1. Shot Placement
2. Bullet Construction
3. Cartridge Power
The .30-30 only limits the third one, and even there is at least 'moderate' by today's Africa-capable standards; better than the spears, bows, and muzzleloaders used up until the past 120 years or so.
- AmBraCol
- Webservant
- Posts: 3703
- Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:12 am
- Location: The Center of God's Grace
- Contact:
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Funny seeing this thread resurrected after just over a decade... Also funny that I just re-read Dalton Carr's book "Tales Of A Bear Hunter". I wish Dalton had included more of his tales on the subject, but the ones he recounts are fascinating. I'd rather hear/read the opinions of someone who's "been there, done that" than folks who haven't. One of the first accounts he gives is of shooting a grizzly with a 30-30, then having to finish it off with a 45-90. He also states that (IIRC) he killed 9 bears with his "inadequate rifle" before he found out it was considered "inadequate". Click the link above, it's an interesting read. Grab the Kindle version and his widow will benefit.
Paul - in Pereira
"He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion." -- John Witherspoon
http://www.paulmoreland.com
http://www.pistolpackingpreachers.us
http://www.precisionandina.com
"He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion." -- John Witherspoon
http://www.paulmoreland.com
http://www.pistolpackingpreachers.us
http://www.precisionandina.com
- Scott Tschirhart
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 4559
- Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
- Location: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
I've seen grizz in Alaska and was in a stream when one came out a short distance from me.
I don't want to pick a fight with any bear. But if I did have to shoot one, I would want to be holding a gun that I shot very well.
There's something about a 170 gr bullet in a .30-30 that seems to work well. I think it is because the velocity is such that the bullet technology is not overstressed on impact, allowing it to get more penetration than might otherwise be expected. I think the 7mm Mauser cartridge is similar in this regard.
While a .30-30 would not be my first choice for shooting a bear, I think it is more effective than a .44 magnum handgun that folks routinely carry for bear protection.
My observation is that those who do not hunt a lot sometimes buy more gun than they can shoot well. They may be hoping that the power of the particular cartridge will make up for their poor shooting. This is almost always a bad bargain. There are men who shoot a big gun effectively, but I think they are rare.
I don't want to pick a fight with any bear. But if I did have to shoot one, I would want to be holding a gun that I shot very well.
There's something about a 170 gr bullet in a .30-30 that seems to work well. I think it is because the velocity is such that the bullet technology is not overstressed on impact, allowing it to get more penetration than might otherwise be expected. I think the 7mm Mauser cartridge is similar in this regard.
While a .30-30 would not be my first choice for shooting a bear, I think it is more effective than a .44 magnum handgun that folks routinely carry for bear protection.
My observation is that those who do not hunt a lot sometimes buy more gun than they can shoot well. They may be hoping that the power of the particular cartridge will make up for their poor shooting. This is almost always a bad bargain. There are men who shoot a big gun effectively, but I think they are rare.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Outstanding thread, and thanks for the book link, I'll be getting a copy. I've never been west of the Mississippi, so I sure can't say anything. But I got to agree with Scott for sure about the 44Mag. Plenty people depend upon them over long periods of time, but I'm sure I'd much rather a 30-30 lever. And Ben Lily always carried an 86 in 33wcf I've read. But if I was going to hunt in Grizzly country? I'd probably choose the 30-06, 348, or 45-70 as minimums!
Last edited by Drawdown on Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life"
"Better drawdown Alvin!"
"If you gotta shoot, shoot don't talk"
Conservative since day one and until the last!
"Better drawdown Alvin!"
"If you gotta shoot, shoot don't talk"
Conservative since day one and until the last!
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
i never killed one, but have seen plenty, and heard plenty of narratives from those who have.
i know of two cases of a charging bear being stopped by a 44 magnum hand gun.
i know of a guide who tried out the 7mm Mag when it had hot press, and quit using it because it was not a bear stopper.
there is a difference between "taking" a relaxed unalert bear, and "STOPPING" an enraged bear with the blood up. two entirely different things.
you can blow the heart out of the charging bear and it can still kill you because his pulse is about 10, and while he is bleeding out he can eviscerate you. it happens.
the success of the 44 mag stoppers is 1. a good shot, 2. no hollow points, 3. a CNS shot into the brain, and b. lower velocities than the 'high powered' rifles. this will apply to the 30-30. it takes a non-disintegrated bullet to reach the CNS.
this kind of info led to the hard cast solids in my firearms
some of them bears are just hard to kill. some of them just flop down dead. my neighbor hated bears and killed at least 50 over the years at his setnet site. used a 30-06, and never had one charge, because . . ,
there are lots of interesting books about bear encounters in Alaska. I'd say "unpredictable" is the word that characterizes the outcomes, applied to the bears, and to the shots fired.
i know of two cases of a charging bear being stopped by a 44 magnum hand gun.
i know of a guide who tried out the 7mm Mag when it had hot press, and quit using it because it was not a bear stopper.
there is a difference between "taking" a relaxed unalert bear, and "STOPPING" an enraged bear with the blood up. two entirely different things.
you can blow the heart out of the charging bear and it can still kill you because his pulse is about 10, and while he is bleeding out he can eviscerate you. it happens.
the success of the 44 mag stoppers is 1. a good shot, 2. no hollow points, 3. a CNS shot into the brain, and b. lower velocities than the 'high powered' rifles. this will apply to the 30-30. it takes a non-disintegrated bullet to reach the CNS.
this kind of info led to the hard cast solids in my firearms
some of them bears are just hard to kill. some of them just flop down dead. my neighbor hated bears and killed at least 50 over the years at his setnet site. used a 30-06, and never had one charge, because . . ,
there are lots of interesting books about bear encounters in Alaska. I'd say "unpredictable" is the word that characterizes the outcomes, applied to the bears, and to the shots fired.
- CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3789
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
- Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
"there is a difference between "taking" a relaxed unalert bear, and "STOPPING" an enraged bear with the blood up. two entirely different things.
you can blow the heart out of the charging bear and it can still kill you because his pulse is about 10, and while he is bleeding out he can eviscerate you. it happens.
the success of the 44 mag stoppers is 1. a good shot, 2. no hollow points, 3. a CNS shot into the brain, and b. lower velocities than the 'high powered' rifles. this will apply to the 30-30. it takes a non-disintegrated bullet to reach the CNS.
this kind of info led to the hard cast solids in my firearms"
Grizz, your comment about a relaxed bear and an enraged bear is exactly what I was going to say. The enraged bear has enough oxygen and adrenalin in its system to still have time to maul you before it dies. A CNS shot is really your only chance I think. I differ with you a little bit on the use of hard cast lead but at modest pistol velocities around 1400 fps it is probably OK. Professional hunters in Africa don't use hard cast lead because the performance is too unreliable. I've personally seen hard cast lead shatter when fired into copy paper while a lead swagged copper case bullet called a "Punch Bullet" back in the day looked like I could reload it. These were shot out of my 454 Cassull Puma at about 1900-2000 fps for both bullets (the lead one was significantly heavier and slower at 360 grains I think) so granted asking a lot out of that lead bullet. But the experience taught me a valuable lesson and a non-expanding monolithic solid or perhaps an expanding one with a long shank would be my vote for a bear stopper.
I can't remember how many bears I have killed from my keyboard though!
Always a pleasure Grizz, and Happy Bright Week!
-Tutt
P.S.
I managed to find a relevant picture still on Gunblast. I fired all of these except the Punch Bullet at about 1400+ fps out of my 460 snubbie into a dirt embankment. The Punch Bullet is the very one I shot into 20 lb copy paper at 2000 fps. From left to right unfired and fired: Barnes XPB 275 grain, Hornady 300 XTP Mag and the Punch bullet at 314 grains. The Hornady bullet is outstanding in its performance and highly recommended at its intended pistol velocities although I would not hesitate to use it either out of a rifle for shorter penetration but absolutely astonishing energy transfer as I have seen on water jugs. The bullet pictured still weighed 279 grains out of its 300 grain initial weight and had expanded to just under an inch.
https://gunblast.com/AndyTuttle_SW460ES.htm
Since the Punch Bullets are long since gone, I have moved on to these bullets which I think will do nicely in the .452 range out of handgun or rifle:
https://lehighdefense.com/452-caliber-3 ... llets.html
-T-
you can blow the heart out of the charging bear and it can still kill you because his pulse is about 10, and while he is bleeding out he can eviscerate you. it happens.
the success of the 44 mag stoppers is 1. a good shot, 2. no hollow points, 3. a CNS shot into the brain, and b. lower velocities than the 'high powered' rifles. this will apply to the 30-30. it takes a non-disintegrated bullet to reach the CNS.
this kind of info led to the hard cast solids in my firearms"
Grizz, your comment about a relaxed bear and an enraged bear is exactly what I was going to say. The enraged bear has enough oxygen and adrenalin in its system to still have time to maul you before it dies. A CNS shot is really your only chance I think. I differ with you a little bit on the use of hard cast lead but at modest pistol velocities around 1400 fps it is probably OK. Professional hunters in Africa don't use hard cast lead because the performance is too unreliable. I've personally seen hard cast lead shatter when fired into copy paper while a lead swagged copper case bullet called a "Punch Bullet" back in the day looked like I could reload it. These were shot out of my 454 Cassull Puma at about 1900-2000 fps for both bullets (the lead one was significantly heavier and slower at 360 grains I think) so granted asking a lot out of that lead bullet. But the experience taught me a valuable lesson and a non-expanding monolithic solid or perhaps an expanding one with a long shank would be my vote for a bear stopper.
I can't remember how many bears I have killed from my keyboard though!
Always a pleasure Grizz, and Happy Bright Week!
-Tutt
P.S.
I managed to find a relevant picture still on Gunblast. I fired all of these except the Punch Bullet at about 1400+ fps out of my 460 snubbie into a dirt embankment. The Punch Bullet is the very one I shot into 20 lb copy paper at 2000 fps. From left to right unfired and fired: Barnes XPB 275 grain, Hornady 300 XTP Mag and the Punch bullet at 314 grains. The Hornady bullet is outstanding in its performance and highly recommended at its intended pistol velocities although I would not hesitate to use it either out of a rifle for shorter penetration but absolutely astonishing energy transfer as I have seen on water jugs. The bullet pictured still weighed 279 grains out of its 300 grain initial weight and had expanded to just under an inch.
https://gunblast.com/AndyTuttle_SW460ES.htm
Since the Punch Bullets are long since gone, I have moved on to these bullets which I think will do nicely in the .452 range out of handgun or rifle:
https://lehighdefense.com/452-caliber-3 ... llets.html
-T-
Last edited by CowboyTutt on Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Thanks Tutt! You are way better organized than I am. Thanks for the pictures, it's easy to compare when they are side by side.
I agree with you that a non-frangible solid has better test results than some lead bullets. I give bullets the hammer test, sit them on concrete and whack them with a 2 pound hammer. some bullets fracture and break up. the ones i use don't. i am not banging them as hard as i can, but am applying what i reckon is more force that they will generate going thru brer bear's bones. this is Marshall Stanton's beartooth bullet 525gr pile driver fired from a guide gun at 1420, about, FPS. it was captured in water jug number 12.
i am now immune to the caveat that i am perfectly equipped to stop charging water jugs.
I am fairly confident that this bullet won't normally stop if shooting a bear, but i don't want to find out. the problem with those Alaska bears is that they can outrun a quarter horse, they can run full speed without making any noise, and i am perfect bear bait.
Thanks again and i want to say i am really interested in your rifle and bullet project, and look forward to see you grouping it on steel!
I agree with you that a non-frangible solid has better test results than some lead bullets. I give bullets the hammer test, sit them on concrete and whack them with a 2 pound hammer. some bullets fracture and break up. the ones i use don't. i am not banging them as hard as i can, but am applying what i reckon is more force that they will generate going thru brer bear's bones. this is Marshall Stanton's beartooth bullet 525gr pile driver fired from a guide gun at 1420, about, FPS. it was captured in water jug number 12.
i am now immune to the caveat that i am perfectly equipped to stop charging water jugs.
I am fairly confident that this bullet won't normally stop if shooting a bear, but i don't want to find out. the problem with those Alaska bears is that they can outrun a quarter horse, they can run full speed without making any noise, and i am perfect bear bait.
Thanks again and i want to say i am really interested in your rifle and bullet project, and look forward to see you grouping it on steel!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:24 pm
- Location: wasilla, alaska and bozeman, montana
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
stretch wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:43 am I've even heard tell of a man killing a grizzly with a knife. He was
attacked, and that's the best weapon he had on him.
The 30-30 with a 170 gr. CoreLokt bullet is, was, and will continue
to be a potent weapon on North American big game. True, a 45-70 will
make a bigger hole in whatever it hits, but the 30-30 has killed A LOT
of game over the last century.
The late jeff Cooper said something about the weapon mattering less than
the shooter. Still true today. (That said, I'd still prefer something bigger
than a 30-30 in grizzly country!)
-Stretch
that man is named Gene Moe, i met him and have actually done back injections on him !!
he was field dressing a deer with a folding knife, when the grizzly attacked and he went hand to hand..... or knife to paw with it, and killed it. he was injured of course, but came out pretty intact overall.
cable
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
All this concern about bear attacks. Don't you all remember how Timmy lived with his bear friends and how well it turned out. I still think the problems at the end were caused by his bringing the girl friend. I think one of the she bears got a bit jealous.
By the way, I've never faced an enraged bear of any sort. I h ave take one nice Black Bear. One 30-06 and it dropped right there. It was blissfully ignorat of my presence.
Now the wife and I are planning a return trip to Alaska (the last one was in 1985). Here's what I am planning to take/have shipped depending on Canadian laws.
By the way, I've never faced an enraged bear of any sort. I h ave take one nice Black Bear. One 30-06 and it dropped right there. It was blissfully ignorat of my presence.
Now the wife and I are planning a return trip to Alaska (the last one was in 1985). Here's what I am planning to take/have shipped depending on Canadian laws.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
- CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3789
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
- Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Cable, awesome story, would like to know more. -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
that man is named Gene Moe, i met him and have actually done back injections on him !!
he was field dressing a deer with a folding knife, when the grizzly attacked and he went hand to hand..... or knife to paw with it, and killed it. he was injured of course, but came out pretty intact overall.
No way!!!
I read that story years ago. One tough hombre.
Sort of a poster child for:
"Do what you can, where you are, with what you've got."
-Stretch
- gamekeeper
- Spambot Zapper
- Posts: 17682
- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:32 pm
- Location: Over the pond unfortunately.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Brown Bears were hunted to extinction about 1500 years ago in Britain, spears were the favourite weapon of choice…
Whatever you do always give 100%........... unless you are donating blood.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Don't use a rifle that will work when everything goes right. Use a rifle that will work when everything goes wrong.
With any dangerous game, mistakes are very costly.
With any dangerous game, mistakes are very costly.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
I'll bet that did wonders for the gene pool.gamekeeper wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:15 am Brown Bears were hunted to extinction about 1500 years ago in Britain, spears were the favourite weapon of choice…
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Never having hunted bear, I cannot contribute to this thread. It is incredibly informative.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
it's a great topic. bears eat people. two of them were "researchers" who didn't carry firearms because, idk, communing with nature maybe? the guy and the girl were eaten alive, as bears do, with their camera running and recording their agony. a guy i had met got jumped by a bear when he was calling deer. the bear responded, disarmed him, and ate his guts. his screams were heard four miles away.
it's because of these images that i am very wary of bears. you could sit in pioneer bar in sitka and mention bear encounters . . . the narrative never ends
it's because of these images that i am very wary of bears. you could sit in pioneer bar in sitka and mention bear encounters . . . the narrative never ends
-
- Senior Levergunner
- Posts: 1086
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:36 pm
- Location: Western Australia
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
In 1953 Bella Twin took a record Grizzly with a single shot Cooey rifle firing 22 longs.
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bella- ... -and-more/
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bella- ... -and-more/
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
While obviously a .22 long will work, so would an 18” naval gun. Neither of which is ideal or practical.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
But given a choice, the 18" Naval gun would be preferred!
- CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3789
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
- Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Grizz and friends, this is the closest I have come to reproducing the "Punch Bullet" from Belt Mountain in my earlier post. It should do just the same I think! -Tutt
https://lehighdefense.com/452-caliber-3 ... llets.html
https://lehighdefense.com/452-caliber-3 ... llets.html
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
that's a beauty. it it a turned solid? that's my idea of a stopper round. Bravo Tutt.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Some good thoughts and memories shared here. It's good to use what works for you. Early in my days I shot quite a few bear with 30-30, 32 Win and 300 Savage. I seldom got a chance to make a perfect shot, most often shooting through timber and at a quartering animals. For bear weighing 500+ pounds, the 30-30 didn't give good results for me. The 32 was adequate and the 300 Savage was better. In my middle years, I opted for a 444 or 45-70. Both did well as long as I kept the distance reasonable for good bullet placement. For longer range shots, the 30-06 and the 375 H&H were great. In the past 10 years I don't hunt long range so much anymore and now carry a Rossi 92 in 480 Ruger. My hard cast 390 grain slugs have taken 3 good sized bruins and a few other large game critters. I plan to never let a large bear get within 30 feet of me, but we all know how plans work out at times.
- CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3789
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
- Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Grizz, yeah, its a CNC turned solid from monolithic copper stock. It should be very accurate as well as heavy. Would be one of my first choices in the 454 Casull or 460 S&W IMHO. Thank you, -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
That's Amazing! This is interesting because i knew someone whose sister was a cook on the Alaska pipeline project, early days. The sister, whose name i don't recall, had a 22 rifle in her tent and killed a bear when it came in after her.Bruce Scott wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:11 pm In 1953 Bella Twin took a record Grizzly with a single shot Cooey rifle firing 22 longs.
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32800
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
.
I think no matter what the animal is, if it is enraged and coming towards you and large, you have to overcome a lot of adrenaline and momentum. If you can destroy the central nervous system it can't coordinate activities other than it could still thrash around quite a bit as I'm sure all of us have seen who have headshot animals that were in live traps. Problem is, a 10 lb raccoon will scratch your leg while 'thrashing about', but a 500 lb bear will rip open your torso and smash your skull while 'thrashing about’. If you can shatter the spine or a leg bone you make restrict its mobility significantly if you're lucky, but if it's very close that's not going to help much.
Unless you are using projectiles the size of tennis balls, it seems like the only hope is to get your bullet into the brain or brain stem if you need to stop whatever it is quickly.
Therefore you need a gun that you can shoot extremely well from awkward positions and quickly, and it needs to shoot a heavy enough projectile at the right velocity to penetrate. That's a lot to ask for a handgun because of the power level required and the consequent recoil thereby making the gun difficult to shoot rapidly and accurately. It's also a lot to ask for a long gun because they are more cumbersome to bring into action rapidly unless you have both hands available.
Maybe the ideal bear defense gun would therefore be something like an AR pistol in 50 Beowulf. IF you had run a thousand rounds through it without a malfunction, and IF you had copper or lead hard solids as projectiles, and IF you had it on a rapid deployment slang at all times.
I think many of us, including myself, tend to worry more about the equipment, and take it for granted that our skills will rise to the level needed. Granted, if I am 99% capable with a Ruger 22 pistol in terms of snap shooting accurately, and only 95% capable with a 44 Magnum (and both of those are likely overestimates ), I think I would go for the 44 magnum because the likelihood of the bullet penetrating to the nervous system is probably at least five fold higher, hopefully compensating for the decreased shot placement....and I would use a very 'solid' projectile like a copper solid or hardcast lead, whether jacketed or not.
We would probably all do the best just like with self-defense against humans, by selecting from among all of the potentially capable firearms and chamberings, not the one which is theoretically the best, but the one which we are willing and able to practice with until it is our Annie Oakley gun.
Not living in bear country, for me this is all theory, but I think it is based on sound principles of physiology and biology and ballistics, as borne out by the many real world observations cited earlier in this thread.
I think if I had to go in high-risk bear country I would consider wearing a Kevlar suit and a face shield, with a set of Howard Leight electronic earmuffs, and just go ahead and fork over the $200 stamp fee each and carry a couple hand grenades....
I think no matter what the animal is, if it is enraged and coming towards you and large, you have to overcome a lot of adrenaline and momentum. If you can destroy the central nervous system it can't coordinate activities other than it could still thrash around quite a bit as I'm sure all of us have seen who have headshot animals that were in live traps. Problem is, a 10 lb raccoon will scratch your leg while 'thrashing about', but a 500 lb bear will rip open your torso and smash your skull while 'thrashing about’. If you can shatter the spine or a leg bone you make restrict its mobility significantly if you're lucky, but if it's very close that's not going to help much.
Unless you are using projectiles the size of tennis balls, it seems like the only hope is to get your bullet into the brain or brain stem if you need to stop whatever it is quickly.
Therefore you need a gun that you can shoot extremely well from awkward positions and quickly, and it needs to shoot a heavy enough projectile at the right velocity to penetrate. That's a lot to ask for a handgun because of the power level required and the consequent recoil thereby making the gun difficult to shoot rapidly and accurately. It's also a lot to ask for a long gun because they are more cumbersome to bring into action rapidly unless you have both hands available.
Maybe the ideal bear defense gun would therefore be something like an AR pistol in 50 Beowulf. IF you had run a thousand rounds through it without a malfunction, and IF you had copper or lead hard solids as projectiles, and IF you had it on a rapid deployment slang at all times.
I think many of us, including myself, tend to worry more about the equipment, and take it for granted that our skills will rise to the level needed. Granted, if I am 99% capable with a Ruger 22 pistol in terms of snap shooting accurately, and only 95% capable with a 44 Magnum (and both of those are likely overestimates ), I think I would go for the 44 magnum because the likelihood of the bullet penetrating to the nervous system is probably at least five fold higher, hopefully compensating for the decreased shot placement....and I would use a very 'solid' projectile like a copper solid or hardcast lead, whether jacketed or not.
We would probably all do the best just like with self-defense against humans, by selecting from among all of the potentially capable firearms and chamberings, not the one which is theoretically the best, but the one which we are willing and able to practice with until it is our Annie Oakley gun.
Not living in bear country, for me this is all theory, but I think it is based on sound principles of physiology and biology and ballistics, as borne out by the many real world observations cited earlier in this thread.
I think if I had to go in high-risk bear country I would consider wearing a Kevlar suit and a face shield, with a set of Howard Leight electronic earmuffs, and just go ahead and fork over the $200 stamp fee each and carry a couple hand grenades....
Last edited by AJMD429 on Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
-
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 2502
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:24 pm
- Location: wasilla, alaska and bozeman, montana
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
and wrap those hand grenades in bacon.... bears cannot resist that!
cable
- CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3789
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
- Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Good post Doc, glad you are healing. Regarding bear defense, there is some really good research that suggests that bear spray is actually very effective. I know I'm going to get in trouble by mentioning it, but the research is pretty solid. That being said, you do best what you train with, and I will keep my 460 snubby by my side in bear territory. -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16793
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Please explain “pretty solid research”.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
I have heard bear spray is effective. I know nothing about bears, so my reading about them is all there is to go on for me. It just doesn't seem all that effective on extremely p. o. ed humans. How it can be effective on something bigger and stronger than a human is puzzling to me.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32800
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
.
I'm guessing spray would be very good up until if the bear were actually charging, at which point I'd expect it to be like guns; much less effective once 500 pounds of fangs and claws is a few feet away. I'll bet that pre-charge they would avoid anything that noxious.
I'm interested to learn the research though...!
I guess one bottom line test would be to put people who've used both, and survived, in a position with a gun and a can of bear spray on a table in front of them and get a bear to charge and see which they'd reach for... Right now I'd pick a gun, but I suppose I could be convinced to consider 'spray' if there were convincing data.
I'm guessing spray would be very good up until if the bear were actually charging, at which point I'd expect it to be like guns; much less effective once 500 pounds of fangs and claws is a few feet away. I'll bet that pre-charge they would avoid anything that noxious.
I'm interested to learn the research though...!
I guess one bottom line test would be to put people who've used both, and survived, in a position with a gun and a can of bear spray on a table in front of them and get a bear to charge and see which they'd reach for... Right now I'd pick a gun, but I suppose I could be convinced to consider 'spray' if there were convincing data.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Research involving spray in a controlled situation is much like jello testing of bullets. Good only for those conditions. Otherwise, you have anecdotal evidence which again like shootings applies only to that shooting. There are just too many variables to draw conclusions of any real relevance.
At best it’s like most things in life. You pays your money and takes your choice.
At best it’s like most things in life. You pays your money and takes your choice.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
-
- Levergunner 2.0
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:51 am
- Location: New Mexico
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
I will say this, I have killed exactly one grizzly bear, a Toklat from the Alaska Range on a population control hunt. A boar, he weighed an estimated 450#, and squared at 6'6". My good friend and I were hunting the Castner Creek drainage when we spotted him rolling boulders looking for a ground squirrel snack, we later tried rolling one of the boulders, and the two of us could barely roll a boulder he was moving like it was a marble.We got to within 80 yards, and I proceeded to send four 200 grain bullets clear through him with my Ruger 300 Win Mag. At the first shot he turned and headed downhill, I could cover all four entrance wounds with my hand, the exits were a completely different story. Just before he made the alders, my bud asked if I wanted him to shoot, I yelled YES! He sent one Nosler Partition into the bear from a Winchester Model 94 in 30-30. While we didn't recover any of my bullets as they had all exited, we found his just under the hide on the opposite side after fully penetrating the paunch. The bear expired about 30 yards into some thick alders, I almost put a 45 caliber bullet through his skull from my Blackhawk, as when we found him it kind of surprised me, and I might have been a little, shall we say "keyed up", I had a loaded rifle, but the instinct for whatever reason had me draw my sixgun. He stunk of rotting fish as we skinned him, not at all like the almost sweet smell of the fall black bears, so we ended up only packing out the head and hide, I have eaten a grizzly another good friend killed in a Delta Junction alfalfa field, and it was good table fare, this, wasn't taking a chance. Following weekend another friend had the same results as I did shooting a 338 Win Mag with 250 grain bullets. All of this long winded blathering on, is my way of saying that I am fairly certain I would prefer something slightly more substantial than a 30-30 for facing a grizzly or brown bear, while I have little doubt it will get the job done, some really bad things can happen in the margins, so I would prefer to keep them as small as possible, and would likely stick with the old 45 2.1" in my Marlin 1895GS, my 375 Ruger would not be a bad choice either, and likely would have been in my hands that day had it been around.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Amen. Use Enough Gun and not just for grizzly...some really bad things can happen in the margins, so I would prefer to keep them as small as possible...
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Regarding optical sights I run one on my 45/70. My kids used dots while getting shot at for three tours. They taught their dad the advantages of them for close, fast work. Taught me how to use them correctly.
Now my eyes and irons don’t get along well anymore. If you look at my GS you’ll see I have a holographic sight. Once you set it up right and learn to use it it’s faster and a heck of a lot more accurate than irons.
Now my eyes and irons don’t get along well anymore. If you look at my GS you’ll see I have a holographic sight. Once you set it up right and learn to use it it’s faster and a heck of a lot more accurate than irons.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32800
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
.
I do like the Marbles Bullseye Sight for rapid acquisition, plus it allows precision if you take an extra half second to use the inner ring.
However, I also like a good Red Dot. The best ones also have a glass etched retical so if the battery is gone you still have an aiming point, although for close-in work at only a few yards you can almost use the tube of most Red Dot sights as a large ghost ring and you're going to be in the vicinity with your impact.
I do like the Marbles Bullseye Sight for rapid acquisition, plus it allows precision if you take an extra half second to use the inner ring.
However, I also like a good Red Dot. The best ones also have a glass etched retical so if the battery is gone you still have an aiming point, although for close-in work at only a few yards you can almost use the tube of most Red Dot sights as a large ghost ring and you're going to be in the vicinity with your impact.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
- CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3789
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
- Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
Well, I stand corrected I think. While 2 studies that are often compared showed that bear spray is very effective and firearms were not, the way the research was conducted was very flawed although it is generally used and taught now. This guy gives a very good analysis of the 2 studies. -Tutt
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-a ... pray-work/
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16793
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: Grizzlies and the 30-30
And that is why you need to talk to me about this stuff.