Hunting effectiveness comparison

[wvfarrier]

I was doing some shooting today with some of my hunting loads and it brought up a question. I hunt with 357, 44 and 45 colt. I realize that in general (with store bought ammo) that 44 mag is the top dog but once we jump into reloading things change.

My hunting load for 357 magnum is a 158 XTP pushed by 19 grains of Lil Gun (this is 1 full grain above the listed max). Out of my Winchester 92 with a 24" barrel, I am right at 2000fps. Its a magnificent load that really puts the hammer on deer sized critters and black bear.

In 44 mag I generally just use factory 240 grain xtps, I havent chrono'd them but they work quite well and the recoil is about equivalent to a good 30-30 load.

Now, here the rubber meets the road.
In 45 Colt I am loading 300 grain XTPs with 19 grains of Lil Gun. This is a Ruger/Load and is 1 full grain UNDER max but was the most accurate in my Winchester 92 with 24" barrel with a velocity just under 1500fps. I havent tried any of PACO's loads as this one seems to be about perfect for my needs.

So, my observations....I have taken the same types of game with all 3 of these and havent noticed any real discernable difference in the effective killing power. Granted, I almost never shoot animals beyond 75 yards so they are mostly chip shots. One thing I have noticed is that the 357 loads tend to do a better job of turning internal tissues to jello while the other two tend to just tear big holes.

Anyone else have opinions on these 3?

[Scott Tschirhart]

Kicking that 158 gr XTP out at 2000 fps will definitely do a lot of damage to a deer sized animal.

I used to load a 180 gr XTP seated long to crimp in the bottom crimp groove and pushed about that fast.....it was a real killer. But the truth is that the 158 would probably have done the same for me.

[AJMD429]

.
It's always about (in this order, in my opinion)

1. Shot placement (have to hit to kill)
2. Bullet construction (has to either penetrate or destroy stuff)
3. Energy delivered (enough to enable bullet to perform)

The relatively small 357 needs more velocity to deliver equivalent energy, so since more velocity generally messes up tissue more, your observations make sense

I think also that with animal tissue there is a threshold of diameter for thoracic wounds that is necessary to reliably cause pneumothorax, as well as a threshold necessary for rapid blood loss. I think it is somewhere between 30 caliber and 50 caliber for most large game, in that less than 30 caliber may not cause pneumothorax or rapid blood loss consistently, whereas over 50 caliber almost always does.

In terms of seeing a difference between 44 Mag and 45 Colt, I doubt that there is a steep threshold difference between 0.430" and 0.452" and in a jagged furry flesh wound that extra 0.022" isn't much in terms of physiologic difference to air flow or blood flow.

The other factor (than 'energy') velocity affects is shot placement, because fast velocity requires less accurate ranging of the target.

Of course this is all based not so much on my own hunting experience with whitetail or other large game, as it is on knowledge about physiology and wounds and basic ballistics and physics, so my opinion is worth as much as you had to pay for it...

[piller]

In something which can take Ruger level pressure, there is not really much difference between . 429 and . 452 inch holes. Seriously!

The shot placement is a bigger difference. Seriously, shot placement is important! I put a shot into a Scimitar Horned Oryx with a . 45-70 just as it moved one time. The aim was at the heart, but hit 2 inches back. It took time to get that critter. There was a rodeo happening to get that animal. Poor shot placement is worse than using a too small caliber.

[GunnyMack]

When working up loads for my Henry 41 mag I settled on Lilgun and Nosler 210 jhp. The XTP and Sierra shot just as well. After putting my load across my chrono I had remembered XTPs had a velocity range so I called Hornady, Sierra and Nosler. The techs at Hornady said 1800+ was too fast, as did Sierra. The guy at Nosler asked how I was getting 1800+ from a 41 mag. I told him from a Henry Big Boy. Anyhow he said go for it the bullet would take it.

Then I had a lightbulb moment, that 1800+ velocity is at 10 feet, by the time a bullet hits an animal, it's going slower.
Would I use a 41 210 jhp for bears? No but I wouldn't hesitate for deer.

I did however use a 300gr XTP 44 out of my Ruger Carbine to shoot a very large boar hog, in 44 out about .75" , took 15 steps and flopped over. Of course the 300 XTP is built a bit tougher.

[Drawdown]

That 357 load at near 2,000fps is no doubt a hunting load if accurate, and right near the 35 Rem! Always loved my 357's, and I never reloaded for them, but have a factory load of 180gr in my Mod 19 S&W, I believe they're Fed 180JSP that I practiced with a plenty, very accurate in it, that I planned on taking a Whitetail with but just never committed to it. My boy got it right now and all the ammo, I ought to get it back and use it. I've been packing a Kimber 45 ACP 4" in woods for past 5 years, love it so light, but its not the hunting pistol my Mod 19 is! Never had a 357 rifle.

[wvfarrier]

Piller.....I had to google what a Scimitar Oryx looked like ......thats a danged awesome critter. It would be an awesome mount!!!

[piller]

Being an exotic, they can be hunted in Texas any season.

[wvfarrier]

Apparently they are pretty endangered in their "natural" habitat back in Africa

[piller]

They live in Texas and New Mexico as free roaming herds in a few places. Being a type of antelope, they are plenty capable of getting out of most fences. The meat is lean, but good. Do not overcook it.

[stretch]

That 357 load at near 2,000fps is no doubt a hunting load if accurate, and right near the 35 Rem!

Yep. No problem for deer or black bear with that load. The 357 in a rifle is nothing to sneeze at.

Would I use a 41 210 jhp for bears? No but I wouldn't hesitate for deer.

Really?!?

I'd have absolutely no problem using that load on black bear. There's as much energy there as a 170gr. 30-30
factory load, and the 41 makes a bigger hole. Even if it's going a little bit slower at 100 yards, it's gonna
get the job done.

-Stretch

[GunnyMack]

That 357 load at near 2,000fps is no doubt a hunting load if accurate, and right near the 35 Rem!

Yep. No problem for deer or black bear with that load. The 357 in a rifle is nothing to sneeze at.

Would I use a 41 210 jhp for bears? No but I wouldn't hesitate for deer.

Really?!?

I'd have absolutely no problem using that load on black bear. There's as much energy there as a 170gr. 30-30
factory load, and the 41 makes a bigger hole. Even if it's going a little bit slower at 100 yards, it's gonna
get the job done.

-Stretch

I get the energy but I'd rather not use a JHP, a 210 soft point sure, a 240+ for sure, but if I was going on a bear hunt I'd take my 338 Federal or my 375 H&H. However over bait then maybe the 41 or 450 Bushmaster... actually I really need to shoot something with my 7x57

[stretch]

I see your point now. That bullet probably isn't ideal at those velocities.

I think it would work, though!

I worked up a moose load for my Blackhawk - 19.5 gr. of H110 pushing a
Cast Performance 250 gr. WFNGC. Out of a rifle, I daresay it would kill
ANYTHING in North America out to 100 yards or so...... I can't shoot a box
of 50 of those in an afternoon - hurts too much. Of course, you might
want to back off on the powder charge a little bit and work up to 19.5 or 19.8 gr.
if needed.

-Stretch