POLITICS - TX Supreme court rules in favor of FLDS

[Old Ironsights]

Cowboy - thank you for your individual attention and care for individual children in crisis. That has never been the issue.

I hope those 5 kids you mention see justice done and their abusers punished.

I likewise hope that the 400 other kids see justice done and THEIR (goooberment) abusers punished.

The key issue is: Do we allow Gooberment to "overstep their bounds"?

From your statement, you have not overstepped your bounds. You have done your job with appropriate concern for all involved. You have NOT gone into any of those kids homes, guns a waving, and forcably removed them.

That is what the Gooberment did and that is what disturbs us - as much or more so than the suspected actions of the FLDS.

There are many people I consider evil. Many RELIGIONS I consider evil. But when you get Gooberment mixed up in defining what Religions are Evil you end up with Inquisitions and Hundred Year Wars.

How many innocents die then?

Gun laws and child welfare laws are exactly the same... because "For the Children" is the excuse in both cases used EVERY TIME.

FWIW, I want people like you out there following proceedure, doing the assessments and paperwork and everything possible and legal to help the children. You are not the problem. The problem is people who believe that every social ill (and scary religion!) can be solved by the application of Force of Goooberment.

Children do not belong to The State - no matter what The State wants to think.

Consider the words of a man most consider to be one of the better Christian Moralists/writers of the era:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." --C.S. Lewis--

[Charles]

Tutt... I read your post several times and could not come to closure on which group of people you thought were evil. Are you talking parents or CPS folks here? I tend to think you are talking about parents.

You did ask the question how folks could defend these people. Again, are you talking parents? You also made mention of posters with some knowledge of the law. I would take it that I would be part of that group.

If I am correct about who the evil folks are in your post , and I am not certain I am, then I can only offer the following response:

When acting as a Defense lawyer, I did not defend a persons actions, conduct, morals or worth as a human being. I defended their rights under the Constitution and the various laws. An individual's rights are not nullified because that individual is a bad person who has done bad things.

If the Goverment can deny them their rights, then they can also deny your rights, my rights, or our rights. When a lawyer defends the rights of an individual he or she defends the rights of us all. My client has always been the Constitution of the United States.

The Goverment may put my client in prison, take away their children or even take their life...BUT.. that will be after their guilt has been proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, to a jury of their peers, by credible and lawfully obtaindd evidence.

You have an important and difficult job to do and at times there will be a conflict between what you feel and what you must do. Folks in other professions have the same conflict.

If, I have misconstrued your post, then disregard the above as not being on point.

Like others, I thanks you for your care for children and their welfare.

[Old Ironsights]

...When acting as a Defense lawyer, I did not defend a persons actions, conduct, morals or worth as a human being. I defended their rights under the Constitution and the various laws. An individual's rights are not nullified because that individual is a bad person who has done bad things.

If the Goverment can deny them their rights, then they can also deny your rights, my rights, or our rights. When a lawyer defends the rights of an individual he or she defends the rights of us all. My client has always been the Constitution of the United States. ...

Never liked the term "criminal defense". No one is defending the criminal (unless you are absolutely convinced of their innocence), they are defending the Constitution and ensuring it is applied to everyone as written.

[bogus bill]

Had the goverment enforced the laws on poligamy over a hundred years ago and not turn a blind eye to it we wouldnt have the situation now. And right now here in utah ag mark shirtliff has repeatedly came and said they will not prosecute poligamy! Then why have the law? I really cant blame shirtliff either, as it has gotten so far out of hand the jails couldnt hold them, same as there isnt enough jails, trains and buss,s to send back to mexico the illegals! The two situations are paralell as to well, we will prosicute any crimes, but you can stay if you behave.
Now that the situation with the illegals and the flds has come down to outright saying we arent going to prosicute, we have long ago lost the battle!
I totaly agree the consitution is and should be our framework for the country, however it seems that within that framework is nothing but jelly!
Nothing is going to be perfect untill the lord returns. The only thing a indivigal came somewhat control is our own personal morales.
This is such a deep involved subject no length of writeing can touch it. I think we can only hope that the event will cause the flds to take a secound look at their proceedures, as they already have now given good faith promises as to marrying the girls age-wise in the future. Also hopefully, all agencys of the goverment will also take notice on overstepping themselves in their respective jobs. Maybe some good overall did come from this fiasco on those basis,s.
I had a grade school teacher that I hated for good valid reasons, but yet I do recall one trueism that she said to this day. "there is some good, that can be found in all bad things!

[Old Ironsights]

Had the goverment enforced the laws on poligamy over a hundred years ago and not turn a blind eye to it we wouldnt have the situation now. And right now here in utah ag mark shirtliff has repeatedly came and said they will not prosecute poligamy! Then why have the law?

You are quite right. A law against Poligyny (ever heard of a case of poliandry? thought not) is strictly a Doctrinal/Religious "law" and has no place in secular society... especially when you consider how many people already have "paralell relationships" - at all levels of society - that are essentially the same thing just not done under the same roof.

[CowboyTutt]

Thanks guys. First off, just for clarities sake, school psychologists don't do treatment. We merely identify those kids who require special education for disabilities or handicapps. Special education law came about as an extention of the civil rights movements of the 50's and 60's that require that children with disabilities not be segregated or descriminated against. One in a while, I get to do some counseling or crisis intervention. A good part of my job is dealing with dysfunctional families and trying to connect them to resources. Sometimes I am required to fill out a child-abuse form because I am a "court mandated reporter". Its not for me to dedice if a child is abused, but CPS. I just report it.

I don't work for social services, but have interacted with a number of social workers and children who really are "wards of the state" as their parents were permanently stripped of their parental rights. This includes the SS agencies from San Benito and Santa Clara Counties. The philosophical mandates of CPS are always to try to keep the family together. This can include requiring parenting classes. When their is a direct threat to the child, and they seem absolutely loath to do this, they will remove a child from the home. Then they do their best to reunify the family as soon as possible.

I had another middle school child who he and his brother would deficate in their clothes at school even when their was no biological cause. CPS went in, and found such filth and neglect in the home, they had to take the children away. The one student I worked with was in a local group home when they came to my attention. The family are actually pretty decent people and they completed all of their parenting classes, paid for by the state, by the way, and their kids were able to come home. A hard lesson for the family and the child. Both kids are in high school now, and doing pretty well I hear.

I can't explain why the local goverment went in there and removed all 400 children. Normally, they would do some sort of investigation, but they have to be careful how they do that. For example, when I make a report of physical abuse, they have to come see the student in the morning while at school, before he goes home. The child is allowed to have someone go with him when they talk to the CPS agent, by the way. They do this so the parents don't beat and retailiate against the child after the CPS worker leaves the home, or so the child can't be "threatened" into silence before an interview. If it appears safe to do so, the child is allowed to go home from school. All information is cofindential. Obviously, someone felt these 400 children were under a direct threat. Someone made a very, very big judgement call. If they are/were wrong, their job will be forfeit.

When you consider the nature of the cult we are discussing, I could see their cause for alarm. I certainly have nothing against Mormons and one of the finest men I have ever known is a Mormon. But this fringe group is something else. The law does not seem to make a distinction between freedom of religion, and cults. I have always found this troubling.

I don't have any answers here. I can tell you that from a legal standpoint, a child's individual civil rights trump even parental rights every time. Civil law is the highest law in the land. Perhaps that is why the goverment can step in and intervene like they did on behalf of the childs rights. I honestly don't know. The children I work with who are "wards of the state" are assigned their own attorneys, and surrogate right holders. The latter are usually another family member, but it doesn't have to be a reletive.

If someone made a mistake, and they very much could have, it will get sorted out. But some of those children probably have been abused, and you have to decide how many children will you allow to be abused when you consider the whole "parental vs children" rights issue. Its a tough call to make.

-Tutt

[Charles]

Bill et. al.. Dispite what the TV says, you are not dealing with a bunch of poligamists. Poligamy is having more than one legal spouse. By legal, I mean somebody who gets a license, does the deed and files the license as proof of the marriage. Do this twice without getting a legal divorce from the previous spouse and you have commited bigamy.

Bigamy is a felony is every state in the union including Utah and Arizona.

These FLDS folks in question do not have legal marriages. The law does not recognze the women as legal wives. The first of the wives might qualify for a common law wife, in some jurisdictions, but the rest does not.

So what we have is one man living and breeding with a number of women at the same time. Moral issues aside, that is not a crime. Happens quite often all through our society.

The FLDS does not call it poligamy, they call it plural marriages. Well, under the law, they are not marriages. The folks are just cohabitating or shacking up, whichever term you prefer.

So, the law really can't do anything about this, because these relationships are not legal marriages under the law. Just a bunch of religious nuts, living and breeding together. They have the legal right to do this and raise their kids in the same way..UNTIL..they cross the line and do something to the kids which the law defines as abuse. Then the law can step in and do something to protect the children.

[bogus bill]

Yes charles, you totaly right on that and I agree I have been remiss in not pointing it out. (actualy I think I have if you research, but it might have been on s&w chat). They do marry legaly the first one. The others are spritual wives, and no legal paperwork to hang them. Still, it is another way they get away with welfare fraud here. Evidently the social sevices here dont sweat the mothers as to who the fathers are. Single is good enough in this state? They know whats going on, but routinely okay it! Some men are collecting for maybe 10 to 20 kids!
It is a mess. Gotta quit for now. Wife and I are going in the boonies for a quad ride.

[Kismet]

Thanks for that perspective, Tutt.

The difficulty for many people on the "enforcement" side of things is that almost all we see are the bad things. If your file is on my desk, it is generally because you have done something really bad. That skews my perspective because it makes me feel like "most" people are doing bad things. Perhaps that makes me more likely to suspect groups like the FLDS (where there's smoke...). It also made me assume (apparently wrongly) that CPS would have more evidence when the facts came to light.

On the other hand, the people that generally don't see the kind of evil that CPS workers see every day often fail to appreciate how much stuff is really out there. I think that skews your perspective - it certainly makes it easier to say, "live and let live." So CPS acts with less evidence than you (the "anti-governmenters") demand because they have seen a lot more than you or I. I really don't believe that makes them bad people. It certainly does not make them criminals.

Reasonable people can differ based on their experiences. I'm pretty sure we see that here every day!

Michael in NH

[Jeeps]

OK, I've really been trying to shy away from this post as I usually get lambasted on political threads by those who are better "debater's" than I.

These people are evil. It disturbs me that so many here want to defend them. I've seen what these people can do.

-Tutt

Your first part, I don't blame ya, I get my butt handed to me all the time
I just jump in with both feet and see what kind of damage the guys who disagree
with me can do. Sometimes I get roughed up pretty good.

Watch Kismet, he has a sneaky "left" jab (sorry couldn't resist)

Second part, I agree, they seem pretty bad. The only look I have into it though
is through the eyes of the media who are trying to hang em on a wall. I never
grew up like them so I don't trust it right off the bat. Am I right? Only the Lord
knows for sure. DO NOT underestimate propaganda. If the FLDS put out a
pamphlit sp?, I'm sure it would look inviting. So it all depends on what side
of the fence you are on. I still don't like em though.

I know I am on the fringe with this one but a family is a family to me unless
there is EXTREME circumstances. (If they proved molestation then by all means
yank the kids out and try to make a better life for them) Families are sacred, I lived through a horrible divorce when I was three. My Dad beat my
Mom and brothers but was too old to catch me by the time I came along.
When I was five my mothers family loaded up in cars and came to the farm
to "take custody" of me. Battle royal and off I went. Todays times, I would
have been carted off to a foster home and NEVER know my family.

I PRAISE THE LORD THIS NEVER HAPPENED TO ME.

I love my family dearly, I couldn't Imagine living without them and being raised
to believe they were evil and that I needed to be taken away.

I would wish the foster care system on no one. I realize they sometimes do
good and that sometimes there is no other choice, but it just seems that it
is an all to ready backup that is used more than it should be.

I would prefer to die with my blood than be separated from it.

God, Family, Country, Corps. That about sums it up for me.

[CowboyTutt]

Jeeps, I only see children taken from the home under extreme circumstances like you mention. You're domestic violence case probably wouldn't have warrented removal from the home, but they may have required parenting classes. I cannot say. The joke in my community is that CPS does not do enough, which means they are probably doing their jobs appropriately! However, and I am IN NO MEANS refering to you, but its been pretty well documented that the cycle of abuse will continue from generation to generation. That cycle really does need to be broken. Again, I'm in no way refering to you.

Kismet, yes I have seen first hand the catastrophic psychological damage that can be done to a child, often from loving parents who just don't know any better. I have been working with a class of emotionally disturbed students for the past two years. In every case, they come from terrible households-terrible in the sense that the parents are totally lacking in parenting skills and the children have witnessed domestic violence or been a victim of abuse themselves. But, they are still within those households. These kids are not born disturbed, they are made so. Quite frankly, some of them are so conduct disordered that I'm sure I will read about them in the paper someday for beating or killing someone in a fit of rage. Today's kids are tomorrow's criminals. If we want to make a better society, it needs to start in the home. Ah, life was so much better in the 50's. Or was it?

I really do think the model has moved away from removing children from households and trying to repair or correct the dysfunctional dynamic. It does sound like someone overstepped their bounds, and the children are returning home as we speak, but the investigations are continuing and at least one person has chosen to not go back. Then their are those 5 children I mentioned that most likely were abused. As someone already stated, hopefully some good will come from all this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080603/ap_ ... kxS96s0NUE

-Tutt

[FWiedner]

Many psychologists believe that everyone could benefit from some course of "therapy", but not everyone who gets the nod actually has a problem just because some egg-head says it's true.

I don't see the benefit to allowing the state to reprogram people at it's whim, simply because someone in system the makes an arbitrary decision that they don't like where the neigbors go to church or the way they raise their kids. Nobody is born with parenting experience, and some don't have the best teachers, the point is that it's nobody's business except theirs.

If a person is going to become a criminal, and at the point where a child or young adult actually breaks the law, it may be of some valid concern to the state and it's control monkeys, but not before.

I'm sure that CPS provides some benefit somewhere, or to someone, but I have not yet encountered a single soul who has benefitted from their continued operation and existence. IMO they are little more than state sanctioned child-molesters.

[PaulB]

In every case, they come from terrible households-terrible in the sense that the parents are totally lacking in parenting skills...

Why don't they have parenting skills? Because benevolent government has taken parenting over from parents (primarily via schools, which used to concern themselves with teaching only the 3R's for a few years). And remember the "Great Society", which almost alone destroyed the institution of the family among blacks? So the government is required to solve a problem of the government's own making. Surprise, surprise.

Bill et. al.. Dispite what the TV says, you are not dealing with a bunch of poligamists. Poligamy is having more than one legal spouse. By legal, I mean somebody who gets a license, does the deed and files the license as proof of the marriage. Do this twice without getting a legal divorce from the previous spouse and you have commited bigamy.

Clever of the state to refuse people licenses for multiple spouses. That way they get to persecute such people as bigamists.

The whole concept of a "legal marriage" is a crock, just another area where government has inserted itself into what used to be a church or personal matter. I guess a lot of people look at the world through government-colored glasses. I don't need the state to bless my marriage, thanks.

They just released news of one young female I belive named jeffs, refuse the option of going back to her family. She thought she would be further abused if she went back.

Keep in mind CPS workers are skilled at getting kids, unprotected by parents or their representatives, to incriminate their parents through suggestion. There has been some effort to stop this practice by recording all such sessions but CPS tends to resist such measures.

I firmly believe that all people and all groups should be judged on their individual actions. This includes goverment, business, religion and so forth. When they are right they are right and when they are wrong, they are wrong.

That's all well and good Charles, but when a preacher says something I don't like I can always visit a different church. When a businessman sells shoddy goods I can find a different merchant. But when someone in government screws you, what's the recourse? Taking him to a government court? Finding a better government? Don't make me laugh. It's rare in the extreme to see government employees suffer any consequences for misdeeds. John Stossel did a special on public education in which he explained that school districts do not fire teachers who happen to be child molesters, they just keep them on the books and let them sit in a room reading magazines all day. On our dime. And don't forget Lon Horiuchi...

[Jeeps]

Not to side track the thread but I'm a firm believer in "Destiny" and not the wishy
washy one either

I'm using percentages to show my thought process they have nothing to do with
reality and I don't believe they could be calculated anyways.

45% of folks were born to be kindhearted, 45% were born to be selfish,
uncaring and evil, the other 10% are neutral and can be pushed either way.

Ive seen ghetto kids grow up to be millionaires and Ive seen kids with every
conceivable advantage lying in a gutter.

My father beat my mom (I hate to say it but it was one of the "two to tango things" although most aren't)
I'm 40 years old and NEVER laid a hand on a woman
and nothing could make do so short of saving my life or someone else's.
Last time I spanked my son he was 3 years old playing with an electrical socket.

I think the only true thing you get from parents is the method of life. Which
is to say if your going to steal like dad you pay attention to do it right, or
if your kindhearted you learn from dad how to treat people nicely.

When I explain things to my son I always hear one of my parents words coming
out of my mouth.

I am a firm believer in live, and let live. Unless there is NO DOUBT that there
is a life threatening or bodily harm situation happening. And then it should not be lightly
considered to intervene.

To anyone who works with children, God bless you. Use your heart when you
need to and your mind when it is appropriate. Never allow a temper into a
situation or even pride for that matter. Neither help at all.

Just make sure you do right by them.

[CowboyTutt]

FW, I appreciate your forebearance into withholding your earlier mentioned criticism of a particular school psychologist. And I appreciate you not putting words into my mouth and lumping me in with this other individual. I'm the only gun-toting psychologist I know, and I try to fix dysfunctional laws/policies/institutions where I can which has gotten me into some trouble more than once. I can only push stuff so hard, though. For the record, I have seen about 3 children off the top of my head who have benefitted from CPS involvment and I already mentioned all 3 of them.

I'm not recommending therapy for everyone. Thats just plain dumb, and a very "democratic" way of going about it. Just throw money at the problem. On the other hand, once upon a time we taught "home economics" and other trades in school. Those programs have pretty much dried up because of the "No Child Left Behind Act". We put so much emphasis on teaching to tests now, that the rest has fallen by the wayside. To me, a simple solution to the parenting issue would be a course in middle school on basic parenting. Maybe just one quarters worth, and not even the whole semester. Or maybe bring it back as a small part of "home economics".

Paul B., schools have been forced to teach ethics and character education because it was legislated upon us. We certainy did not ask for it. Something has really changed since the 50's. Perhaps we have many more "single parent" households and it has become such a huge struggle just to meet the childrens basic needs now. When we have Student Study Team meetings with parents of children who are failing in school, sometimes we gently make recommendations of how they could better meet the child's needs at home. In essence, we have been forced to teach parenting skills to parents, not just character educate the children! Still, all the research conclusively indicates that the most powerful interventions that help children do start in the home! Doing nothing will only result in more children flunking out of school, more crime on the streets, and a less educated work force for America to draw on. Some of these same children will probably come back to the goverment asking for welfare and unemployment as well. Education is a way to empower individuals and make them self-reliant. Doing nothing is not an answer. Doing the appropriate thing is the hard part.

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

45% of folks were born to be kindhearted, 45% were born to be selfish,
uncaring and evil, the other 10% are neutral and can be pushed either way.

Ive seen ghetto kids grow up to be millionaires and Ive seen kids with every
conceivable advantage lying in a gutter.

Jeeps, in educational technical speak, it is called "resilience". Some of us just have something inherent in our make-up that allows us to survive hardship and bouce back better than others. Call it destiny if you will, I do not believe in accidents either. And as you pointed out, having a good role-model is absolutely priceless. Its best if it can come from the immediate family, but it can be an Uncle or instructor too. Also, rest assured that those of us who work with children make decisions as a team to try to come up with the best answers. I've got an interesting job. Sometimes it can be frustrating trying to help those who are so terminally messed up, and sometimes I need to vent at the stuff I see. My peers and I are professionals in our dealings with parents and other agencies. We do what we can, but then we have to let go.

-Tutt

[AJMD429]

I don't see the benefit to allowing the state to reprogram people at it's whim, simply because someone in system the makes an arbitrary decision that they don't like where the neigbors go to church or the way they raise their kids. Nobody is born with parenting experience, and some don't have the best teachers, the point is that it's nobody's business except theirs.

The state should be allowed to reprogram people - just look how much better our society is during the past 50 years we've allowed it to happen. How could you possibly be so unreasonable as to object to continuing in the same marvelous direction? Aren't you "progressive?" Aren't you "reasonable?"

[...sarcasm off... ]

I'm sure that CPS provides some benefit somewhere, or to someone, but I have not yet encountered a single soul who has benefitted from their continued operation and existence. IMO they are little more than state sanctioned child-molesters.

Yep - just like with a medication - you have to look at the risk of the treatment vs. the risk of the disease. A few individuals are abused and killed daily by a few sick and aberrant, dangerous, individuals. The alternative offered is for MILLIONS of individuals to be abused and killed intermittently by a tyrannical government. It isn't some abstract theory or pessimism born of too many rednecks drinking too many beers - all you have to do is look at the past couple centuries of history to see the clear trend; genocide continues to kill around 5,000 innocent people EVERY DAY in those enlightened nations which disarm the citizens after registering their firearms ("to control crime") and then empower the government and ruling elite to do whatever necessary to "protect the children" - just like Hitler protected the Jewish children from being indoctrinated by their evil parents.

The CPS "cure" is generally more dangerous than the disease of places like FLDS, and that FACT doesn't mean we have to approve of the FLDS.
You don't use a hand grenade to kill the mouse in the kitchen, whether you really really dislike mice, or not.

Same concept - not rocket science...!

[El Mac]

You boys voting Obama too? I mean afterall, the government is responsible for the HIV virus and eventual AIDS.

I'm just saying...

[JohnnyReb]

You boys voting Obama too? I mean afterall, the government is responsible for the HIV virus and eventual AIDS.

I'm just saying...

Well, I don't know about that... but what I do know is that two Appeals Courts agreed that the government of Texas wrongfully detained over 400 children.

[El Mac]

You boys voting Obama too? I mean afterall, the government is responsible for the HIV virus and eventual AIDS.

I'm just saying...

Well, I don't know about that... but what I do know is that two Appeals Courts agreed that the government of Texas wrongfully detained over 400 children.

Which is exactly what I have said all along. The courts will work it out - one way or the other. They did their job. Amazing!

I do get a kick though when everytime someone fanny burbs in public, some folks panic and sound the alarm saying that the fanny burp sounded like a German 88, so the Nazis must be resurrected and are heading our way, this time to throw our arms into the ovens.

[Old Ironsights]

You boys voting Obama too? I mean afterall, the government is responsible for the HIV virus and eventual AIDS.

I'm just saying...

Well, I don't know about that... but what I do know is that two Appeals Courts agreed that the government of Texas wrongfully detained over 400 children.

Which is exactly what I have said all along. The courts will work it out - one way or the other. They did their job. Amazing! ...

Again, the COURTS did their job only AFTER the CPS acted criminally and INJURED SEVERAL HUNDRED CHILDREN for whom there will be no reparations.

Which is what WE have been saying all along and you seemto continue to willfully ignore.

[sore shoulder]

[
Which is exactly what I have said all along. The courts will work it out - one way or the other. They did their job. Amazing!

Your being just a bit disingenuous. That is not all you said. You were in favor of the original courts actions, found to be illegal by the higher courts. They were found to be illegal for the reasons many of us were posting right from the start. Reasons you were very critical of. It was very obvious, if you just ignored the inflammatory rhetoric from the talking heads and examine the facts, that the CPS and local court were in the wrong. The most obvious was that with 400 children siezed, not one person was arrested. 400 kidnapped, and not one person arrested. A whole town kidnapped, and not one person arrested. Just how did they manipulate public opinion? It's for the childrens safety. Dupes.

So, just imagine if the higher courts had supported the lower court. Would that have been "sorted out?" No. We have seen this before, it is why Lon Horiuchi can murder an innocent pregnant woman and still be walking around. It's why Janet Reno can burn entire families of women and children and go on Oprah and talk about communities working together.

Wake up man.

[Charles]

I swear you anti-goverment folks are a real hoot. You can find a reason to fault the goverment no matter what the issue. You boys would even fuss if they hung you with a new rope.