RCBS 45-270-SAA loads quandary

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:35 pm

I have a nice collection of RCBS 45-270-SAA (Cast bullet, +- 280 gr.) load recipes, and have settled upon my parameters for working up my "ideal" safe load for that round. However, it is interesting that there are very few reliable recipe sources for this bullet.

You can find a pretty fair smattering of what I call anecdotal information - loads proferred by various online shooters. But unless one knows that shooter or has had adequate communication with him/her to establish "bonafides," that is not the way to go, of course. No offense meant to anyone, but some of these fine folks are "explosive experts" to my way of thinking - wringing out the last ounce of power before the poor guns blow up!

This is my short list of loads. There might be one or two loads in all of my manuals, but they are few indeed. Since Hornady, Barnes, Sierra, and other bullet makers don't peddle this round, it is not present in those books; and even the powder company manuals fall silent, with perhaps one or two loads among all of them - Alliant, Hodgon, Accurate, IMR, and so on. You might find a generic reference to a "280 gr. (L) TC" bullet in the Accurate manual, for instance; but that does not help. By the way, Hodgdon totally dropped the ball with their 2012 manual. No mention of this bullet, even their powders are well represented in loads for this round - very disappointing.

Even My "One Book / One Caliber" book - "The Complete Reloading Manual for the .45 Colt," published by Loadbooks, is silent about this bullet.

So - here are my sources, to save others the frustration in finding loads that are listed by an authoritative source:

Handloader Magazine Issue 246, April 2007
The partial issue that shows load data for this round is still available for download as a PDF file for free, at -
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/P ... artial.pdf

Handloader Magazine Issue 275 (December-Jan 2012)
Partial online issue not available - see below

The above loads are ALL available, sans the supporting text, at LoadData.com (if you are a subscriber). Enter "45 Colt" and "280" bullet weight (Advanced Search)

By the way, Ammoguide.com (subscribed site) has none of these loads.

Okay, that's what I have. But I like to have a printed source available - portable and permanent. Who knows what will happen with the Internet with all of the proposed gubbmint meddling? Here is my question:

I have Lyman manuals, which don't work for this load. Is there a current "RCBS Bullet Load" manual or other printed source for sale that shows this round, and perhaps other ones that aren't Lyman mold bullets?

Thanks for your input.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:54 pm

I use 8.5 gr. Unique. IIRC one can duplicate that with 8.5 gr. Universal.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:13 pm

Hobie wrote:I use 8.5 gr. Unique. IIRC one can duplicate that with 8.5 gr. Universal.

Mine, too, Hobie. I have some loaded but I keep getting pulled away from range testing. It is still hard to beat the versatility of Unique.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:26 pm

John - Since the bullet you mentioned (the RCBS-270-SAA) is pretty much my favorite bullet, along with a properly cast Keith slug, for .45 Colt, I'll chime in. Maybe you, or any others interested, can find something of use for yourself.

As you know, but others may not, the above noted RCBS mould is relatively new. It was developed to help guys who loved cast bullets for their Colt brand .45 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, but couldn't utilize many of the Keith type bullets out there because the Cartridge Overall Length (COL) would not allow those bullets to fit and function in the Colts (and also in some of the clones).

The issues of Handloader which you noted remain some of the best information out there dealing with loads for the great RCBS bullet.

Many of us who don't wish to load our Ruger Blackhawks up to the "Ruger Only" levels which we see in the loading manuals have benefitted greatly by what Brian Pearce and a few others have offered us in researching numerous loads for this bullet.

If you're like me, you can't stand the idea of "Cowboy" type loads which barely exit the barrel of a 4 and 5/8" barreled Blackhawk going 700 fps. For those who love that, great, more power to ya'. But to me, those velocities are not only boring, but they bear no resemblance to the REAL Cowboy loads of the later 1870's and 1880's, which utilized black powder to launch 250-255 grain lead slugs at velocities of 850 to 900 fps. The new Lyman manual is just plain awful in this regard. They've even done away with the "Ruger Only" section for .45 Colt loads.

For those manuals which do, indeed, include a section for "Ruger Only" loads, the problem is the opposite one: now, instead of anemic loads, we have loads with 260 Jacketed Bullets zipping along at 1200 fps, and faster. Many of these loads use the full power available from Winchester 296/Hodgdon 110 powder, and darn it, I'm not looking for that much power.

Soooooooo .... what we end up with is alot of guys like me who are looking for what we honestly believe falls into the category of "Mid-Range Loads." I'm not looking for 30,000 psi in my loads. But I sure don't want to settle for 14,000 psi as my ceiling either.

Given that at least some of the reloading manuals can't even be bothered to include a "Ruger Only" section for the hot stuff in .45 Colt, why should we be surprised that they're not taking the time to include what might be the most popular loading level of all (if the manual printers would just pull their heads out of the sand) ? That is, of course, the Mid-Range Load. These loads are in the 19,000 to 23,000 psi range (maybe, a tiny bit more) and launch the bullets like our beloved RCBS-270-SAA and 260-280 grain Keith's in the neighborhood of 900 to about 1050 fps. I like this neighborhood. Accuracy abounds, recoil is noticeable (I say FUN !) but not harsh, and you can easily shoot 100 rounds without tiring.

Until they do start printing loads in this power level in the manuals, Brian Pearce and a few others are our best and safest bet. Pearce's breakdown of the various power levels, and loads which fit in each category, have been very close for me when I've chronographed them. If the worry about actual pressures still worries a shooter, well then it's time to invest in some ballistic software so that you can plug in all of the exact properties of your load and have a pretty good idea of the pressure's you're running.

Since I've already run too long with this response, I'll add one more thought. Since I'm not set up to cast at home, I buy bullets from those few casters who either produce a good Keith bullet and/or the RCBS-270-SAA bullet. So far, this has been: Beartooth Bullets, Montana Bullet Works, and Mt. Baldy Bullets. Marshall at Beartooth Bullets doesn't produce the RCBS bullet yet, but he produces a real gem of a 265 grain Keith bullet. It has the proper deep crimp groove and a nice flat base. Note, I mentioned 265 grains.

Mt. Baldy makes a great RCBS bullet which weighs right around 280-283 grains. It's softer than the Beartooth bullet, so I factor that in when I load them up, and load them a tiny bit slower. A load using 12.5 grains of HS-6 works beautifully with this bullet. Unfortunately, Mt. Baldy's Keith bullets which I bought have a crimp groove like a ditch, and the front driving band leaves a bit to be desired. But Mt. Baldy's RCBS bullet is done very well.

By contrast, Montana Bullet Works' RCBS bullet is cast from heavier alloy, and those weigh in between 290-293 grains in the batch I ordered. I wish his crimp groove was a little deeper but, with a slightly reduced charge of the same HS-6, I get pretty respectable accuracy out of Dave's offerings too. By the way, Hobie noted 8.5 - 9.0 grains of Unique. That remains an excellent choice, and does very well with all of the bullets I've noted above.

I don't know if I've even made a dent in answering your question. If not, could you please be more specific ? - DixieBoy

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:32 pm

John,

Looks like other than Brian Pearce's articles and maybe a few more, you're on your own.

I have only loaded a very few of that bullet. I honestly can't tell you what I loaded it with, or if I've even fired them. Well, knowing myself an educated guess would be 9.0grs Unique or 18.5grs 2400 but that's all it would be.
But I think when cast at 280 +- they are two heavy.
That is why I don't buy pre-made ones. The numbers 270 is supposed to indicate the weight, but nobody uses the same alloy as RCBS (10-1 lead -tin ) does so they always cast heavy.

I prefer my Keith SWCS to weigh around 265 to 270gr for normal use.

Any heavier and they shoot way to high unless pushed at Ruger only levels.

Joe

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:46 pm

Joe - Good point about the bullet weights. The RCBS bullets I bought from Montana Bullet Works are quite a bit heavier than the same design from Beartooth; there is a difference of 25 grains or more. I always reduce the charge a bit with the Montana bullet.

It's nice if you can get these variables written down in your notes and accomodate the subtle differences in bullet weights, then you don't have to play with your sights much (if at all) before you can get down to having fun.

I have a "project" Blackhawk which you and several others helped me with - with advice - when I was getting the chamber throats squared away. Once that, fire lapping, and cutting an 11 degree forcing cone were cut, it was that 12.5 grain load of HS-6 and Marshall's Beartooth 265 grain RCBS bullet, and Mt. Baldy's version of the same bullet which first produced real accuracy for me. I remember coming home with a huge smile on my face after finally getting all of the ingredients right.

- DixieBoy

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:19 pm

DixieBoy wrote:...Cowboy loads of the later 1870's and 1880's, which utilized black powder to launch 250-255 grain lead slugs at velocities of 850 to 900 fps. The new Lyman manual is just plain awful in this regard. They've even done away with the "Ruger Only" section for .45 Colt loads...I'm not looking for 30,000 psi in my loads. But I sure don't want to settle for 14,000 psi as my ceiling either... loads are in the 19,000 to 23,000 psi range (maybe, a tiny bit more)...in the neighborhood of 900 to about 1050 fps...Accuracy abounds, recoil is noticeable (I say FUN !) but not harsh, and you can easily shoot 100 rounds without tiring...I buy bullets from those few casters who either produce a good Keith bullet and/or the RCBS-270-SAA bullet. So far, this has been: Beartooth Bullets, Montana Bullet Works, and Mt. Baldy Bullets....

Dixie Boy,
Like the great old humorous WWII letter said, "That's me all over, Mabel."

Your shooting and loading profile is the same as mine - a hefty load that doesn't require you to yell "Fire in the Hole!" and yet enough bullet weight and velocity so that the accuracy carries through to some distance greater than 26 yards.

And by the way, I seem to recall that some sources say that towards the end of the black powder era, those 250-255 slugs were moving as fast as 1,000 ft. per second in the old cowboy guns. The black powder, using longer barrels, pushed a little slower, I have read somewhere - it wasn't as violent an initial explosion as the newer smokeless powder formulations provided. That is what I want - loads that are somewhat near the apex of the old .45, with just a bit more bullet weight, since the Ruger can handle it safely and accurately with a cast projectile, while minimizing barrel leading. Ultimate purpose: Swine of the four legged variety.

My current load is the Mt. Baldy offering and 8.5 grains Unique. Unfortunately, since the bullet is new (as you stated), it does not show up in my QuickLoad tables. But thanks to Mr. Pearce's data, I will be creating a model of the SAA bullet for my predictive software. That is, now that I have some load velocity data for verification purposes against what the software should indicate. The software will take care of pressure predictions, which are not of any real concern at these loadings, anyway.

My main angst, though, is that there are other cast bullets that are not documented in my sources. I guess it all points back to maintaining my subscription to Handloader Magazine online.

Joe, I guess I'll see how the heaver 280 grainer pans out. I'll probably just zero the load at a longer range, if possible.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:02 pm

John - I figure that there are a bunch of us having real fun with these mid-range loads.

When you get set up with reloading software I would love to see your actual results for pressure. The way I understand it (I don't own any ballistic software yet) when you plug in ALL of the specifics of your load, including actual case length, exact bullet weight, and all the rest, that you can get a pretty good idea of the pressures generated with a specific load.

I'd love to know what my 1.275" Starline Cases, WLP Primers, 12.5 grains of HS-6, and the Beartooth 265 grain Keith with medium-heavy crimp and COL of 1.660-1.665" are generating. This load is the one I lifted straight from John Linebaugh's "Dissolving the Myth" article. I'm half a grain lighter on the powder charge, and a bit lighter on the bullet weight, if I remember correctly.

I hear you about wanting to stay safe. I really don't want to end up a cautionary tale. I want to have fun with these loads, and know that they can take hogs of either four or two legged variety should the need arise. The accuracy and punch of these mid-range loads is the confidence builder necessary. - DixieBoy

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:19 am

I've enjoyed the discussion here on this bullet and finding loads for it. If I acquire a 45 Colt revolver this will most likely be the bullet I'll want to try first.

Just for grins I played around with QuickLoad a bit (yeah, they don't list this bullet but I made some guesses at dimensions and used 280 grain weight in altering some Lyman bullet data). with my guesses QuickLoad would estimate a peak pressure of 26,400 psi with Dixie Boy's load of 12.5 grains of HS-6. Also estimated 1120fps from a 6" barrel, but other folks have found that QuickLoad overestimates velocities from revolvers by 6% or so, so that'd drop that to about the 1050 fps that you wanted to top out at.

QuickLoad made a bunch of "suggestions" for reaching that same velocity, mostly at too high pressure but a couple that got my interest:
1) 15 grains Alliant Blue Dot, 23,500 psi
2) 11.5 grains Alliant Power Pistol, 23,650 psi.

I've never used Power Pistol -- this makes it look awful efficient.

I've used a lot of Blue Dot in 357 and 44 mag and it would be my pick for this application because of filling the case better.

Ooops -- I missed Dixie Boy's cartridge length. When I plug that in we have the HS-6 at 22,500 psi and 1075 fps, with the Power Pistol and the Blue Dot coming in a bit under 20,000 psi for the same velocity...

I know my stuff from the ballistics program is probably some way off from reality but I'd bet it isn't too far off in making some relational comparisons. Thanks for an interesting thread, fellers.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:34 am

Pretty shrewd extrapolating on the 265 grain Beartooth load, Earl. I PM'd Dixie Boy for some exact measurements and came up with a QuickLoad prediction of 993 fps, 20,162 psi using a 4.62 inch barrel, COAL of 1.665", and so on. BTW, bullet length for the .453 pill is .719" per Dixie Boy, weight is 263 gr.

I created a bullet profile for the Mt. Baldy .453 RCBS 45-270-SAA (BHN 11) bullet. The bullet length for this specimen is .736 inch, for QuickLoad aficionados' tables.

As mentioned, QL slightly exaggerates the muzzle velocity for wheelguns (I figure 8% or less), but is still quite acceptable. Here are the results of QuickLoad's predictions versus Brian Pearce's chronographed test - comparing one powder, only. And remember, each gun is different:

.45 Colt, 5.5 inch barrel, Mt. Baldy 280 gr. RCBS 45-270-SAA, .453" diameter
CCI 300 primer in Pearce's tests

Unique 8.0 gr, 924 fps (14,000 psi range)
-- QuickLoad: 917 fps, 17042 psi (that's what it says)

Unique 9.0 gr, 991 fps (20,000 psi range)
-- QuickLoad: 997 fps
Unique 10.0 gr, 1057 fps (20,000 psi range)
-- QuickLoad: 1072 fps, 26302 psi

2400 19.0 gr, 1145 fps (32,000 psi range)
-- QuickLoad: 1216 fps, 29393 psi

Pretty close!

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:50 am

John - I want to thank you again here for running the specifics of my 265 grain Beartooth and 12.5 grains of HS-6 load on the Quickload program. It's much appreciated. I've got comments and questions, since I'm learning alot on this and the other thread dealing specifically with .45 Colt loads.

First: I have enjoyed shooting lots of cast bullets with Unique in the 8.0 to 9.5 grain range, with these cast bullets we've been talking about. Haven't chronographed all of the loads, as I don't chronograph some loads until I start seeing some accuracy. However, I have only loaded 10.0 grains of Unique behind a 280 grain Mt. Baldy RCBS-270-SAA on one occasion and, just judging my muzzle blast alone, I seemed to be on the verge of really upping the ante. Wish I'd brought my chrony with me on that day because I was a bit startled by the increase in noticeable blast. As Unique is not known as one of the best metering powders, I hand weigh all charges of Unique, so it wasn't a goof with the powder charge. Anybody else notice this with the 260 - 280 grain lead slugs when you get to 10.0 grains of Unique ?

Secondly, maybe this is a comment and a question too: I bought a couple pounds of 2400 (same lot) at the local gun show and was experimenting with the above noted bullets and this new-to-me powder. I have not gone up to Joe Miller's 18.5 grain load, but I have seen that load listed by Pearce, and I believe that it's likely safe. It was nice to see the Quickload numbers posted for that load.

Here's my deal, and hopefully some of you all with greater experience with 2400 might be able to help here. I went up from 16.0 grains in half grain increments, up to 17.5 grains, and so far all I've gotten is one heckuva pile of unburned powder, gritty turning of the cylinder (no doubt, with unburned grains darn near everywhere), respectable muzzle blast, and not much accuracy at all. Sooooo ... I guess my question is, Is 2400 a powder which shines when it hits a "sweet spot" like some others ?

If it really does all come together at 18.5 grains of 2400 then I'll break that powder out again and experiment some more. We have a gun show here in Melbourne this weekend and I guess I'll see if the local powder peddler has Blue Dot too. I like the idea that we have three or four powders that we can use to put these nice mid-range loads together, and keep that pressure safe while doing so. That way, if availability of one of your favorites becomes an issue you're still good with some of your others.

Thanks again John, and all of the guys who've chimed in here. Long Live The .45 Colt !!! - DixieBoy

slimster · Post by **slimster** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:36 am

Thanks for this post. I too, have been frustrated by the lack of load data for the.45 colt in the 20-23K pressure range.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:06 pm

DixieBoy wrote:and so far all I've gotten is one heckuva pile of unburned powder, gritty turning of the cylinder (no doubt, with unburned grains darn near everywhere)

That's been my experience also, DixieBoy and is why I didn't mention 2400 as a "powder of interest" even though it looks pretty good in QuickLoad. You'll like Blue Dot much better! Blue Dot also meters a little better than Unique in my Redding measure and I don't weigh charges, though it certainly doesn't meter as well as the ball powders. I'm not a good enough pistol shot to detect +/- O.2 grains and we're not talking critical pressure ranges here, thus my practice of "just throw 'em".

The "Power Pistol" intrigues me after the QuickLoad exercise. It is also a little fluffier than HS-6 and fills the case better for that equivalent velocity (58% fill for its 11.5 grains vs. 50% fill for the HS-6 12.5 grains)

A friendly fellow let me shoot his Cimmaron (Bisley configuration) yesterday in 45 Colt and it felt very nice in my hand. I might could go with one of those if I stumble on a "bargain"

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

I have fired about 3,000 of them over 20/4227 (IMR or H) with good accuracy and velocity. I would consider it my "go to load for this bullet".

With the traditional 260 grain Keith, I use 8.5/Unique and have fired many, many thousands of this load, again with good accuracy and total satisfaction.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:28 pm

Charles - Do you use a magnum primer with the 4227 load ? Pearce's little chart specifically lists that change from all the other loads which use straight large pistol primers. I wonder if it's a necessity ?

earlmck - I'm curious about the Power Pistol in .45 Colt too. Have used it and AA #5 just a bit in fooling around with 200 grain jacketed Hornady XTP's in my .45 acp pistols. As a matter of fact, AA # 5 turned in some surprising accuracy in the acp.

The 11.5 grains of Power Pistol seems high compared to Pearce's information, which is one of the few precious and limited informational sources we have for Mid-Range loads for our .45 Colts. Pearce lists 9.0 grains of Power Pistol with the 280 grain RCBS-270-SAA at 972 fps, and then 9.5 grains of Power Pistol for 1013 fps with the same bullet. I wonder if 11.5 grains of Power Pistol is just maybe a bit hot for what I'm after (again, sticking between 950 to maybe 1050 fps or so. I'd accept a bit more velocity if the accuracy was top notch though).

Also, it's pretty well known that Power Pistol is an "efficient" powder, giving good velocities without going nuts with pressure increases. But, it sure does throw the flame when you get up to fun velocities in the .45 acp. Seen that for myself.

Not to divert this great thread, but since I've learned so much here on this thread I thought I'd share my absolute sweetheart load for the .45 acp cartridge. Thinking about "flames" is what got me thinking about it. I'm in love with Nosler's 185 gr. JHP, sitting over 6.7 to 6.8 grains of Winchester 231, using a Winchester large pistol primer. With a COL of 1.220" this load runs consistently at 950-975 fps over my chronograph. Extraordinarily accurate, and it feeds in every pistol I've tried it in, from 1911's, to Glocks, to XDM's and more. Okay, just thought I'd share that one. Back to the .45 Colt and the RCBS bullet ...

I wonder if anybody's got experience with Power Pistol in the .45 Colt here. It just might be that most guys figure it to be a powder for punchier loads for auto pistol and haven't checked it out with the larger caliber revolvers.

Well, the dealer at the show had no Blue Dot, so I guess Graf's is getting a call tomorrow. - DixieBoy

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:29 pm

Again, y'all are quite welcome, for what little I could contribute to this excellent forum.

Note on Unique: I keep reading - everywhere - that Unique is "dirty," and it meters somewhat poorly.
Dirty? - I guess, since I use it for so many pistol loads, I have not noticed what a "clean" load looks like; I just clean my guns after firing. But I keep bumping into various sources that say that: 1) It is a lot cleaner than the older formulation, and 2) There is not as much residue if your load / barrel length combination allows you to burn up most of the powder. As for the latter, most of my loads (again, according to QuickLoad) burn up the powder in the 90's to 100% before leaving the barrel. That is one of the factors that I consider in that software before even trying a different powder.

Poor Metering? - This constant complaint is a mystery to me. I apply enough pressure on the downstroke to crunch through the occasional dose where something seems to present resistance. Am I just particularly blessed with unusually tight tolerances in my three powder dispensers??

With the one free standing RCBS Uniflow measure, I sometimes discard what feels like a jammed downstroke. With the RCBS Piggyback Progressive press and its attached RCBS Uniflow, greater overall pressure is needed to accommodate all of the stations, and I never feel a difference - the powder is just dumped. So - my loads are quite regular with both powder measures - the freestanding RCBS Uniflow (purchased new and now a few years old) and the RCBS Uniflow attached to the progressive press (purchased used and several years old, with many thousands of rounds usage). Am I just lucky to have two devices with very close tolerances? I don't know. I occasionally dismantle, oil, and then clean them off, and protect them from the elements; but otherwise I don't treat them with any special care. So I am curious when I hear about others with their more expensive powder stations (such as the Redding variety) who have measuring problems.

I follow the accepted procedure of weighing every 10th load for the first few rounds, then about every 20th load to check consistency. Both of mine consistently meter out loads well within the .2 grain difference described. So I am puzzled by this frequent complaint. Now, as for Red Dot, that is exactly the opposite! Both Uniflows and even my Lee Autodisk dispensers all have major problems with consistency. I now use Lee dippers when I must resort to using that powder, ironically in the face of statements on this forum by experienced users who claim that Red Dot presents no problem! Hmmm...

Note on Blue Dot: Earlmck and others keep talking about this powder, and it shows up fairly frequently in mid-range loads for the big bore pistol calibers. I note that it is slightly faster than Unique; so I may have to break down and try it if I don't "perfect" a load with its "sweet spot" using Unique with the various loads now scheduled. I try to keep my rifle/pistol powder stock limited so that I can buy in quantity and save money (volume discounts, fixed Hazmat fees, shipping costs). The gun supply stores in the Central Valley have either dried up in many reloading supplies or gotten out of that business altogether, or else charge outrageous amounts for their stocked powder. There are no Cabela's type stores near here.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:28 pm

Unique a stick powder .... ummm, I don't think so John. Unique is a flake powder. You get the same crunch a lot of the times when you cut a flake in half, but it ain't no stick powder.

Now, let me tell you about black powder .45 Colt loads. I have balloon head cases. I buy every one I can get my hands on.
I load them with 40grs FFF or FF black powder and a 250gr factory type bullet. I do not have a chronograph but I'll hazzard an educated guess that I am getting nearly a 1000 FPS from my 7.5" Ruger BH.
And the recoil is substantial. Not kidding, here's a pic of me cranking off a 40gr load and this is at the top of the recoil travel:

Joe shooting BP from Ruger.JPG

You can see with a two handed grip it still rolls back a lot.
It's even more funner out of a 4 3/4" Cattleman. Look towards the back of the pic:

Goober and his Marlin .35Remington ( you can see Joe just touched off another BP 45 Colt in the background).jpg

Pic courtesy of 2ndovc.

Make you life simple. Get a good 260-265gr Keith bullet (Beartooth's are EXCELLENT) and load 'em over 9.0grs Unique. That will do your 4 legged hogs.

Joe

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:41 pm

J Miller wrote:Unique a stick powder .... ummm, I don't think so John. Unique is a flake powder.
Joe

Of course. I didn't say that.

(Note to self: Thank webmaster for keeping "edit" mode active on this site)

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:55 am

Dixieboy..I use Winchester LP primers for all my handgun load requiring a large pistol primer.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:50 pm

Dixie Boy wrote:The 11.5 grains of Power Pistol seems high compared to Pearce's information, which is one of the few precious and limited informational sources we have for Mid-Range loads for our .45 Colts. Pearce lists 9.0 grains of Power Pistol with the 280 grain RCBS-270-SAA at 972 fps, and then 9.5 grains of Power Pistol for 1013 fps with the same bullet. I wonder if 11.5 grains of Power Pistol is just maybe a bit hot for what I'm after

Good that you saw that, Dixie Boy. I haven't searched out Pearce's article... I was just passing along what QuickLoad was showing. For sure I'll start lower with Power Pistol and ease up to velocity: it could be QuickLoad has faulty data on this powder.

JohndeFresno wrote:I note that it is slightly faster than Unique; so I may have to break down and try it if I don't "perfect" a load with its "sweet spot" using Unique with the various loads now scheduled.

I'm sure you meant slower, John, 'cause it is somewhat slower than Unique. Lets us get more magnum-esque velocities with reasonable pressures for cases with enough capacity. I have not used it for loads if the type we are talking here, though I may try some pleasant-shooting loads with my .44 mag in line with this discussion...

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:35 pm

J Miller wrote:...Now, let me tell you about black powder .45 Colt loads. I have balloon head cases. I buy every one I can get my hands on.
I load them with 40grs FFF or FF black powder and a 250gr factory type bullet. I do not have a chronograph but I'll hazzard an educated guess that I am getting nearly a 1000 FPS from my 7.5" Ruger BH.
And the recoil is substantial. Not kidding, here's a pic of me cranking off a 40gr load and this is at the top of the recoil travel:
]

Good guess, Joe. QuickLoad has a blackpowder calculator, as well - shows an estimated 948 fps with your load and barrel.

Not that's what I call a cowboy load!

By the way - weren't it you who gave me a bad time about the gun jumping up in this picture? I researched what I shot that day; it was a similar load:
Looks about the same elevation as your, eh? Mt. Baldy SWC Keith 265 grainer, 9.0 grains Unique for about 940 fps in my 4 5/8" Blackhawk. Yup, I am considering that load for pigs, as well; still have some loaded.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:34 pm

John,

I "might" have teased you a bit about the recoil of the Ruger in that pic,
but I don't remember doing it.

I think for general use the Keith bullet and Unique are a very hard combo to beat.

Joe

Doc.Holliday · Post by **Doc.Holliday** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:29 pm

Good Afternoon;
I wonder if anyone here can give some load advice on using Alliant Power Pistol powder with 250 grain #2 alloy cast rnfp bullets.
This is to be used solely in a Rossi model 92 rifle in 45 colt with a 16 inch barrel.
This rifle was made for 454 casull pressures I believe but I was thinking of keeping pressures under 26,000.
There is precious little data for Power Pistol in 45 colt save for sami spec loads.
Thank-you .
Doc.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:05 pm

Doc Holliday - welcome to the forum!

I just saw this, and unfortunately I'm out the door for an appointment. If nobody answers this, I'll give you some info this late afternoon (several appointments in a neighboring city with wife).

JdeF

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:21 pm

Welcome Doc - Stick around. One of the guys who loads for .45 Colt rifles will be along. Wish I could help you with personal experience and Power Pistol, but I've only used it .45 acp loads. I just checked my Hornady manual (# 7) and they don't even list Power Pistol on the one page they've allowed

for .45 Colt rifle. They've got a 255 grain "Cowboy" type bullet they sell, and it's fairly soft - it's swaged lead - and all of their loads are on the slower side.

Maybe you could glean something from what John and earl posted earlier. I'm sure you could count on an additional 150 - 200 fps out of your rifle barrel over what we're getting from 4 - 3/4 barrel Blackhawks. Maybe even better. "You're a daisy if you do." - DixieBoy

Doc.Holliday · Post by **Doc.Holliday** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:29 pm

Many Thanks Gentlemen; I will watch this post with great anticipation. What intrigued me about Power Pistol was the economy of the load and the posts regarding its clean burning.
I had tried IMR 4227 - 21 grains with CCI 350 primer and a hard crimp but had a lot of kernels in the barrel which developed into a real mess in the action after a dozen rounds or so. Mind you it was an accurate load for the first few rounds.
Thank -you
Doc

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:10 pm

Doc.Holliday wrote:I wonder if anyone here can give some load advice on using Alliant Power Pistol powder with 250 grain #2 alloy cast rnfp bullets.
This is to be used solely in a Rossi model 92 rifle in 45 colt with a 16 inch barrel.

Hey there, Doc. Glad to see you extending the life of this interesting thread, and give me an excuse to have some more fun playing with the QuickLoad program. 'Course you know, to do best work QuickLoad needs some specific info from your load to plug in, namely: length of loaded round, length of the bullet, level-full water capacity on your cartridge case.

I plugged in your 16" bbl and a little generic data from QuickLoad tables, guessed a C.O.A.L. of 1.58", bullet length of .635, water capacity of 41.6 grains. With these parameters QuickLoad estimates 14 grains of Power Pistol gives you 1580 fps. at 26,000 psi. For comparison, a top load of Lil' Gun of 26.4 grains gave a bit over 1700 fps. at the same 26000 psi. So Power Pistol looks pretty efficient for this load if that load would be satisfactory for your purposes. If you've read previous posts in this thread you'll see that there is some suspicion that QuickLoad may be underestimating pressures for Power Pistol, so you might want to consider that. And also this is just "on paper" sort of playing around and I don't have any load experience to back up this "paper play". But in a Rossi action that can handle 50,000 psi without flinching I wouldn't feel too hesitant to try some Power Pistol with the 250 grain bullet. At these velocities I'd be thinking I wanted a gas-check bullet, though. Might get fooled, but my luck with plain base bullets diminishes considerably as I get above 13 to 1400 fps.

Btw, your 21 grains of 4227 was giving you around 15,000 psi which is too low for 4227 to be happy. That's why all the unburned junk. You probably need 24 to 25 grains to get pressures up to good burning for the little stick powder. The 21 grains probably gave you just under 1300 fps which could be duplicated with about 10.5 grains of the Power Pistol if that velocity level seems to be shooting for you.

And Btw again, 18 grains of Blue Dot would fill your case a bit better than the Power Pistol for about the same velocity at that pressure level.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:00 am

Way to go Earl. My, my. You HAVE been busy with your QuikLoad program haven't you ?

- DixieBoy

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:47 am

Thanks, Earl! Got back late.

Doc.Holliday · Post by **Doc.Holliday** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:01 am

Many Thanks Earl for your work and answers to my questions. You have certainly enlightened me ; especially regarding my use of IMR 4227 powder.Some of my reloading manuals were giving me a maximum of 22 grains with this bullet and powder.
I had suspected my pressures were too low to cause such fouling.
Again I will work up slow from 11.0 grains of Power Pistol stopping where there are no signs of excessive pressure and accuracy is optimum.
I am at a loss to explain why there is such little reloading information in manuals regarding the 45 colt in strong rifles , especially the Rossi 92 which is very popular.
All the other forums I checked would only comment on Power Pistols clean burning traits and economy of use. This clean burning comment after my 4227 experience is what led me to this powder.
My hats off to all you Gentlemen for your willingness to share your experiences and advice.

Doc.

Doc.Holliday · Post by **Doc.Holliday** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:09 am

Pardon me for forgetting to add in my last post that I am currently using Winchester Brass, WLP primers and Dardas cast bullets - 250 grain RNFP. I assemble these with a hard roll crimp to the same length as Winchester factory 45 colt ammunition.
I have not had any feeding problems to date by copying this OAL.
These bullets are plain base and I am planning to use Lee Liquid Alox as well.
Kindest Regards
Doc.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:49 am

Doc Holliday - Glad you're getting closer to what you're after. I'd start with the Power Pistol at 10.5 grains, and then work up from there. I'm not an expert on that powder, but you might find what you're after with PP before upping the charge very much.

One other thing, since it hadn't been mentioned since this thread was resurrected. I LOVE Hodgden's HS - 6 for the mid-range loads. I've only used heavier bullets than your 250-255 grainers, most of mine running between 265 - 290 grains in the .45 Colt. The load I mentioned back in the earlier posts (first page of this thread) is 12.5 grains of HS - 6 with the bullet weights listed above. I'd think that you could nudge it up just a little (say, half a grain at a time) and come up with what you're after. HS - 6 doesn't get near the attention that Unique does, or even Power Pistol for that matter. If it hadn't been for reading John Linebaugh's excellent article "Dissolving the Myth" specifically about .45 Colt loads, I'd have never looked into this great powder for our beloved .45 Colts. Good luck and good shooting. - DixieBoy

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:02 am

DixieBoy wrote:I'd start with the Power Pistol at 10.5 grains, and then work up from there. I'm not an expert on that powder, but you might find what you're after with PP before upping the charge very much.

Yeah, I second that. If you're going to want to watch for best accuracy you'll want to start on the low side with your plain-base bullet. And DixieBoy's HS-6 does look good in QuickLoad. It would give a little higher pressure at those mid-type velocities and that might cause the brass to seal the chamber better for less "smoked cases" (we're talking black-powder range pressures for most of these loads).

And last night while messing around I "happened" to look at RCBS molds on Midway. One of the favorable commenters on the 270 grain 45 mold said he gas-checked them! He uses the Hornady "squeeze down" bullet puller. Pushes the base up just far enough into the jaws of the puller and squeezes her down until he creates a gas-check shank. Sounds like a neat trick-- any of you fellows ever try this on a plain-base bullet? As I mentioned before, us rifle shooters are going to want a gas-check on our bullets as we up the velocities.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:41 pm

I see this thread continues to live, so I went back, read it again with particular attention to John's original post about lack of information and data on this specific bullet. That leads me to make a comment about this bullet in particular which may also have some application to other aspect of reloading.

Scoville designed this bullet as an improvement to Keith's original 260 grain SWC 45 Colt bullet. He (Scoville) gave it a smidge more bearing surface so that it would get a better grip on Colt's SAs that have rather shallow rifling. In the process the new bullet picked up about 20 grains of weight. In the total scope of things, that really isn't that much more weight.

I do not push the red line in any of my loads, either cast or jacketed, rifle or handgun. I just don't do it! Therefore, I just use data from the original Keith bullet, can see no real difference at the target, nor any increase in pressure in the firearm.

As I look at sites like ths on the web, I see loaders seeking secific loads for specific bullet and seem unwilling to transpose data from smiliar bullets. I have done this transposing and gestimating all of my reloading life and have never come to any harm or hand any suprises of any kind. I don't know if I am some kind of a throwback or what?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:31 pm

Charles,

You and I have done and do the same thing. But I'll wager we both grew up and started shooting and hand loading long before Al Gore invented the internet.

I still do not have the Quick Load program. I've had John and others do the research for me on the rare occasion I'm looking for something. But I don't need it. I have lots of books and years of experience to go on and those occasions that I've had someone run a QL program on one of my loads it's just verified what I already knew.

The internet has made shooters unwilling to start from the beginning and learn, then move on to the doing. They want it "NOW" 15 minutes ago.

That's why in the last several months I've pretty much given up entering into these load data discussions.

My answer is go buy reloading manuals, and do it. Lean as you do.

Joe

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:46 am

J Miller wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:31 pm Charles,

You and I have done and do the same thing. But I'll wager we both grew up and started shooting and hand loading long before Al Gore invented the internet.

. . . .

The internet has made shooters unwilling to start from the beginning and learn, then move on to the doing. They want it "NOW" 15 minutes ago.

That's why in the last several months I've pretty much given up entering into these load data discussions.

My answer is go buy reloading manuals, and do it. Lean as you do.

Joe

Now there is some wisdom in this last post. And I am reminded that there is much gold to be mined by going through older threads. I'm thinking about loading some 270-SAA bullets for Mic's old gun this weekend, and this is exactly what I needed to see.

samsi · Post by **samsi** » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:56 pm

The 12.5 HS-6 with the Scoville bullet mentioned early on in this thread has been a winner for me, having used it in both Blackhawks and a 625. In the Ruger Only flavor, 10.0 of Universal (from the Pearce/Handloader writeups) also shot well in my Blackhawk.

Going back to the mention of Power Pistol, it's become my go-to for standard pressure with the Lyman Keith bullet. It performs about the same as Unique at 8.5 grains but meters so much better.

Twodogs10mm · Post by **Twodogs10mm** » Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:11 pm

Hi I'm new to this forum. This discussion caught my attention as I am trying to find loads for the same bullet. I know it is a very old thread but it also has a lot of good info and is just what I need. I was hoping some could tell me if the RCBS 45-270 SAA will cycle in a Marlin 1894 cowboy or a Rossi 1892?

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:08 pm

Twodogs10mm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:11 pm Hi I'm new to this forum. This discussion caught my attention as I am trying to find loads for the same bullet. I know it is a very old thread but it also has a lot of good info and is just what I need. I was hoping some could tell me if the RCBS 45-270 SAA will cycle in a Marlin 1894 cowboy or a Rossi 1892?

It feeds just fine in my old Rossi 92.

Twodogs10mm · Post by **Twodogs10mm** » Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:14 pm

Scott Tschirhart wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:08 pm
Twodogs10mm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:11 pm Hi I'm new to this forum. This discussion caught my attention as I am trying to find loads for the same bullet. I know it is a very old thread but it also has a lot of good info and is just what I need. I was hoping some could tell me if the RCBS 45-270 SAA will cycle in a Marlin 1894 cowboy or a Rossi 1892?
It feeds just fine in my old Rossi 92.

Thank you, What is your COL? Do you crimp in the crimp grove? Any load data?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:18 am

Twodogs10mm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:11 pm Hi I'm new to this forum. This discussion caught my attention as I am trying to find loads for the same bullet. I know it is a very old thread but it also has a lot of good info and is just what I need. I was hoping some could tell me if the RCBS 45-270 SAA will cycle in a Marlin 1894 cowboy or a Rossi 1892?

Feeds purrfectally in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy.

Joe

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:32 am

Twodogs10mm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:14 pm
Scott Tschirhart wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:08 pm
Twodogs10mm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:11 pm Hi I'm new to this forum. This discussion caught my attention as I am trying to find loads for the same bullet. I know it is a very old thread but it also has a lot of good info and is just what I need. I was hoping some could tell me if the RCBS 45-270 SAA will cycle in a Marlin 1894 cowboy or a Rossi 1892?
It feeds just fine in my old Rossi 92.
Thank you, What is your COL? Do you crimp in the crimp grove? Any load data?

I crimp right in the crimp groove.