Pistol caliber lever actions.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat May 08, 2021 10:52 am

Well a brief history for the Sixman. First one I bought was a B92 in .357, a fine lovely rifle,. Shouldn't have let it get away but there was a lot to pursue. It is now in Texas. Next came a Win 94 in 45 Colt another good one with one idiosyncrasy. It was finicky about position for feeding but it went to my son. They came a stainless Rossi in 45 Colt because it showed up at a very right price. It too went Texas to a fellow who had a Marlin .357 Cowboy in a trade. I shot that for a while with and without a scope. A fellow in Missouri took a shine to it so it is there, good deal for both of us. An 1894C came and stayed. Still was without s 45 Colt but a nice Rossi showed up at the LGS. It works fine and is as smooth as a B92 44 that showed up. Then there is Marlin 25-20. Still have to manage get it out enough. I have worked with a couple of those, finicky on reloading. Last is a .357 Rossi Trapper. Works fine and right on out of the box. There are differences in them all but do the job so far.

Now, what has never showed up in any description in any gun show or shop since 1988 is a .... drum roll please ... is a Winchester 92.

Six must have them all, have never held or seen one even at the range I haunted 40 weeks a year for 10 years.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sat May 08, 2021 11:31 am

Well dang, OS. You must have been hanging at a pretty poor sort of gun range. Win '92 is fairly common in this part of Oregon at the range I hang around. I shoot a m92 25/20 for our "quarter bore" match and have a second one that somebody screwed a m53 barrel onto that I loan to my shootin' buddy for that same match. And my best success at the "pistol caliber lever" match has been with the m92 in 38/40 though I keep trying to get some success with a Rossi 357 and a Rossi 44mag.

Drop by some time and we'll let you have a look as long as you keep your distance.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat May 08, 2021 11:49 am

Yes Earl, curious but Six has made such an issue of it I thought I would extrapolate on my experience.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Sat May 08, 2021 12:02 pm

I've had three Rossis (357 & 45 Colt) ranging from real good to sorry. Had a 94 Marlin 44 back in the 80s which only shot OK with one load (Fed 240 JSP?) of 4-5 I tried.

There will be one more, a 44 mag this time. The Henry 'steel' 44s look promising and if any of you have one, please chime in. The other contender is a B92 and I'd like to hear about those too.

piller · Post by **piller** » Sat May 08, 2021 12:30 pm

Like Old Savage, I have seen some Rossi firearms that worked and some that were junk.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat May 08, 2021 12:36 pm

This was a B92 44 Mag. with Win white box 240 gr. Wanted to see where the B92 shot. This was the only group.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat May 08, 2021 12:39 pm

.
extrapolate - [ ik-strap-uh-leyt ]
verb (used with object), ex·trap·o·lat·ed, ex·trap·o·lat·ing.
1. to infer (an unknown) from something that is known; conjecture.
2. Statistics. to estimate (the value of a variable) outside the tabulated or observed range.
3. Mathematics. to estimate (a function that is known over a range of values of its independent variable) to values outside the known range.

Jay Bird · Post by **Jay Bird** » Sat May 08, 2021 2:19 pm

Fred...good ole 6 told me to tell you this.....he's out back digging in the swamp looking for gold.....

I tell ya...NO ONE like Fred (Old Savage) has a way of projecting mental telepathy like he can...it's either that or serious button pushing from 3,000 miles away..........(or words to that effect as I'm just a peon factory worker with a H.S. edumacation with little knowledge of the proper usage of the upper classes "English".

Pistol calibered lever guns.....first, forget all that junk made elsewhere and for that matter, anything made in the last 20 years with the exception of the Jap guns. That statement will keep this thread from going more than a half page.

1892's have never been my focus, only acquiring sample guns in the calibers once offered, trading and buying "up" until the keepers arrived....having somewhat extensive experience with them all...1892's, 1894 Marlins..(pre-war), Remington and Colt pump guns and the plethora of guns from the "junk era" from the nineties on.(1990's).

Old Savages Browning IS the strongest 1892 ever made but as usual he got greedy and let it slip away. The Japs rally know how to do it and Marlin gave away their business by catering to the stock holders....

The SMOOTHEST operating pistol calibered GUN was the COLT Lightning with Remington's Model 25 and 14 and 1/2 a very close second.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat May 08, 2021 2:50 pm

Birdman, tell Sixer the 44 is still about.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat May 08, 2021 4:08 pm

The pistol caliber leverguns are my favorite "shooting and woods loafing" guns. I have one old Rossi SRC in .357. Mostly cause I didn't have a .357 rifle and I have a pile of revolvers for it. I slicked it up some and it's a real good shooter.
I have a Browning 92 in .44 that has seen some country for sure but shoots and functions well, also.
I have a pre-crossbolt 94AE trapper in 44 that I did a half cock conversion on that I actually use quite a bit.
All the rest are Winchester 92s or 73s in 38-40 or 44-40, with the vast majority being 38 SRCs.There is one 73 rifle in. 32 with a set trigger and 26" barrel, but it's rough.I have more carbines than rifles, but have a nice half mag takedown 92 in 38. There is a 2/3 mag carbine 92 in 38 with no ring and the Townsend Whelen shotgun butt . I much prefer 38 to 44. I have a 73 rifle and 2 92 carbines in 44.
I do have one Marlin 1889 in 38-40, also. It's a round barrel 2/3 mag rifle.

JOG · Post by **JOG** » Sat May 08, 2021 5:46 pm

You gentleman have some fine lever action rifle! I don't have to many anymore. I had to trade off a few for some semi auto firepower a few years ago.
Of course I regretted it later. But I still own three JM Marlin's in 45-70, 44 mag. and 357. All about 40 years old. The old 1908 made Winchester 1886 in 33wcf.
Winchester 9422 that get's a fair amount of use. I'm building the lever actions back up again.
I never owned a Rossi before. I've only seen one model 92 for sale in the last few year's.
Lately it's been old Winchesters on my mind. My local gun shop seems to have a pretty good stock of ammunition as of lately!
I finally found some 38 spl. and some 357 mag. rounds!
I'll take the Marlin 1894 with my S&W 66 out for some fun tomorrow!
That's if It's not raining up here in Maine.
Remember to take care of the wife and mom tomorrow boy's!
Enjoy your weekend!
Johnny

Jay Bird · Post by **Jay Bird** » Sat May 08, 2021 9:46 pm

Birdman here......Six went to Home Depot for some toys for Dad's Day tomorrow....oooopppp! It's Mother's Day ain't it?...Well, that's OK as he considers it Christmas, birthdays, Fathers/Mothers Day and every other holidays 365 days a year.

Johnny....hey, your close to Jay...see if you can sneak up there and get Jay's buffalo coat. I'm going jewelry shopping tomorrow.

Fred......you want a NICE 1892 in 44-40? It's the only one I have and it won't be cheap...it's a takedown antique. (Made before 1898) a hefty premium for those two items.....it's a 3" gun at 100..has an original "to the gun" tang sight on it.....better than average walnut as Winchester did that to takedowns...and there's very few 1892 takedowns........probably an 85% gun with a few handling marks........

I told you this would be a halfway length thread.

-----Birdman of Leverguns

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat May 08, 2021 9:53 pm

Well JB, thanks for the offer but a gun that comes apart in two pieces, Yeah I don't know about that. And I think you are going to have to remove that tang sight. Don't like those, too close to the eye. And on top if that it is old ... hmm? Then I have to travel with cash in a suit case. And an old caliber ???

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat May 08, 2021 9:58 pm

Fred...for real...when you want something, just let me know...most models in most calibers...Winchester or
Marlin and the means in which to shoot them...accurately....no junk imports here!

That's a nice picture of the squirrel......I could lay the old Winchester Low Wall across the window sill with a CCI "quiet" in the chamber......cross cut the bullet nose and pop that critter. Figure, if it does go through it's only going to hit cement.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat May 08, 2021 10:17 pm

The Birdman posted a pic of that really neat 104 yr old Colt you showed him. We do know one thing now, Colt called it the 45 Colt. You know some of those foreign makes label theirs 45 LC.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat May 08, 2021 10:20 pm

The Birdman posted a pic of that really neat 104 yr old Colt you showed him. We do know one thing now, Colt called it the 45 Colt. You know some of those foreign makes label theirs 45 LC.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat May 08, 2021 10:23 pm

Whoooo!
That 44 sounds some nice.
I feel a chill in the air........better get my coat.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Sat May 08, 2021 11:16 pm

I am surprised no one has pointed out that
25-20
32-20
38-40
44-40
are not pistol calibers.
I mean .. I am shocked!

They are rifle calibers that other companies decided to adapt pistols to shoot.
SHOCKED!!

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Sat May 08, 2021 11:49 pm

Well Jim you are correct sir! I have 25-20’s, 32-20’s.357’s, 38-40’s, 32 long colt, 44-40, and 44 mag in leverguns. No 45 colt at the moment but they have come and gone as other people’s idea of their value rose and fell.

DA8230C2-D9E4-4B92-A5DB-5EFE3F6DE51D.jpeg

A recent outing with my Marlin 1894C on 357 magnum at 75 yards with 180 grain XTP. It’ll do.Oh yeah that’s 7 shots.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun May 09, 2021 12:21 am

That's why Jim T. is THE MASTER.....in that case I don't own any "pistol calibered lever guns. They are all 25-20..32-20..38/44-40's.
Look Jim...let's pretend we are democrats and put a twist on it with a slight change in terminology....it's now "pistol caliber length cartridge lever guns."

75 yards? Mmmmm.......not bad young man!

mickbr · Post by **mickbr** » Sun May 09, 2021 1:04 am

I left the shooting game for about a decade and got back into it needing something low abuse, low noise and low cost. Hence pistol calibre carbines got the vote and a pair of 357 rossis are my only centrefire rifles these days. Havent handled the japchesters- could have bought a browning but it didnt like the short specials I use. Nate Kiowa has said previously that rossi's usually have the best chance digesting different COALs of all the 1892 variants. Pushed hard 357 knocks on the door of light 30-30 power and at low power I can plink 3000 rounds on a pound of powder. 357 weighs only slightly heavier than 223 ammo, about 3lbs per 100 and packs tighter in a 50cal can too, about 1500 rounds.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 09, 2021 5:52 am

JimT, shocked, shocked, shocked are you ... and no doubt appalled

. Well, where to start and Six don't think your point is not noted, pistol caliber length PCL. In the world of firearms development why would they have gone the -40, -20 route? Well maybe for short range power they had what was needed. Throw in a -70 and you have it all covered, squirrel to buffalo.

Longer range you say, throw in a -30. Now with Griff you are out to a 257 yd deer rifle. And, the -30, -70s come in pistols too.

Fast forward to 1988, OS wants to get back to shooting after a hiatus into other strange things like skiing etc. and the reloading 1989. Well, Going back in time not my thing really. So a case tumbler, a Dillon RL550B and (don't like lube and case cleaning) CARBIDE DIES

.
And, straight walled cases, no muss, no fuss crank out 300-1200 cases a week. So .357, 44 Mag and 45 Colt covers basically everything. That would be 38 Spl to the Tutt Super Loads of a 360 Keith at 1350 fps out of my 45 Colt Rossi. With all the super penetrability of 309 gr "hard cast" at 900 this should never stop.

So that is how we arrive at the modern pistol cartridge lever action PCL rifle.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 09, 2021 6:07 am

Now, traditionalist ... not here. The old holds no great alure. So you fellows can happily have at it. OK a couple 54 99s but there really isn"t anything current to match or out do a sub inch 250 or 300. A Marlin .410 or a 42 03-A3, same story. Friend gave me a Polish 8mm, sights out to 2.000 m.

So exploring the new and what is there in the old calibers, Six, big help in the siren call of the 32-20 and 25-20. In fact #25,000 in my reloading log 32-20. Would still like to have a rifle in that.

But again, those PCL rifles are just dandy for awhile lot of shootin', and that in a variety of rifles available but unfortunately in an original Win 92.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 09, 2021 6:19 am

First Gen Colt not so ... 3rd Gens. Original 92, again not so, Rossis, Marlins, Browning and Henrys, Six is operating a daily driver museum there probably almost without match. Be nice to see it. Me, it is the new stuff mostly like the old stuff. After many years a 61' 94 primo did come along,

JOG · Post by **JOG** » Sun May 09, 2021 7:20 am

I have a question guys, were the early Browning model 92's all made in Japan? I don't think they were ever made in Belgium or Utah.
Hey Jaybird I borrowed that buffalo coat from OldWin, who borrowed it from Six. I had the lab run a test to identify the specie.
It turns out that the coat is made of nutria! That's some type of southern swamp rat!
Oh well it keep me warm anyway. not to mention I found a pack of Kool's in the side pocket!
My breakfast is waiting.
I'm having a quart of Stolichnaya Vodka and a boiled potato.
That's a meal fit for a Czar!
Johnny

crs · Post by **crs** » Sun May 09, 2021 7:41 am

100+ year old Winchester 1892 with .357 Magnum Douglas barrel and Bishop wood. Well worn in and smooth action. This was the first centerfire for My wife and kids and my son has spoken for it when my will is read.

He will probably get the M19 too.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Sun May 09, 2021 9:27 am

My first levergun was in .44-40 and right from the start I knew it was a rifle. I was 14 or 15 and Dad loaded Keith 250 gr. SWC with pretty stout loads of 2400 for me. We shot those at 400 yards and while I could keep them on the deer silhouette target, the bullets were keyholing because of the slow twist. But I never doubted it could do the job out to that distance at least.

"PCL" works!

My only PCL levergun is the 24" octagon barreled Rossi that Paco gave me. I have had no issues with it and my top end load is right up there ... 125 gr. Gold Dot with 21.5 gr. H110 gives 2317 fps. It will hold it's own with the 30-30 out to a 100 yards. The more aerodynamic 30-30 bullet will outrun it over longer distances. But I rarely shoot anything at 100 yards anymore and the .357 PCL rifle will do whatever I need to do.

me with Paco's riifle

tom marlin me.jpg

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 09, 2021 11:10 am

Well now you have gone and done it, said you liked your Rossi. And Paco had it first. Now if he likes you he must have liked it.

Bought his book , some of the best gun reading ever and saw your crowd does gift each other with fine shooters.

Gave a friend a nice M 70 pre 64 30-06. It just at wasn't as good as the 1988 manufacture M70.30-06 I already had and he really liked it. Turned right around and got me very nice M700 Mountain Rifle.

Nice desert sunrise! And a fine Wisconsin walleye.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun May 09, 2021 11:47 am

Happy Joe Mamma day......heeeyyyyy....where's yo Joe Mamma?

Well, here in Sixgun Land, my daughter and her Joe Mamma are yapping away in the other room figuring out how to make Jeff Father.... me ....part with the Ben's.....that's another story....but FIRST, on to my fine Western compadre, Old Savage.....

Pistol "length" calibered guns are the funnest to shoot.....cheap, holds lots of bullets, decently accurate.......you know the old saying, "don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight".

One time 30 or more years ago I watched Barnaby Jones on TV come running out of a house with a snubnosed Smith and shoot 3 men who were shooting at him with rifles. Good ole Barnaby even shot one man while holding the gun under his own arm and point shooting.

Oh! I was distracted.....ALL guns are made to be shot....but some should not be shot......---006

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 09, 2021 12:01 pm

Well JimT, my fine Eastern compadre 006, mind you he is "out west" from where I grew up is coming around. I can see it. With you and Paco and I am sure others on board the Rossi train I am sure thru all the smoke and distraction that it is creeping in like a camel with its nose under the tent that he should secretly be getting ... I am thinking a 357 Trapper. He will of course look it over thoroughly before the Ben's leave the back pocket. COSteve has thousands through his and lots of info.

And if he does he will thoroughly wring it out so we will have a go to guy added.

Technicality, TC has made this a pistol cartridge rifle. Six, year and model please ???

Just to show you I have something nice you might like

piller · Post by **piller** » Sun May 09, 2021 12:33 pm

I have a pistol caliber levergun. .480 Ruger was originally a pistol caliber.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun May 09, 2021 12:34 pm

Yes! Captain Fred! THAT is quality........made from 1953-1964....the last of the good ones.......

No, I will NEVER be on the Rossi train, much preferring an original with zero finish.

To a man who has extensive education in the medical field will you agree with me that "knowledge is power"? I know your answer. I have that knowledge in old guns, as to how to make them run and be accurate also....AND where to buy at the price that a former factory worker can afford BUT.....YOU HAVE TO PUT THE TIME IN....and that's what I did at every free moment I had from the time I was 18......and a considerable amount of time from when I was about 8........

You have a doctorate in the medical field...I have a "do it yourself" doctorate in the old Winchester and Colt field...and a bit in the Smith & Wesson , Marlin, and old Ruger field.....with a bachelors degree in the pre-1873 gun field.---006

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Sun May 09, 2021 12:57 pm

Yes you do Sixgun! No argument.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 09, 2021 1:11 pm

Six, I have the utmost respect for earned knowledge. There is no substitute for learning by doing. We are fortunate here to have a number. I don't think anyone surpasses you in your area.

Guns are individuals and you have learn each. Who knows God may bring me a fine Win 92 in 32-20. It has happened before with other guns.

This 410 was a gift from a patient.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun May 09, 2021 1:58 pm

Oh! Where do I begin? (I'm having a bit of difficulty today....rain...rain...low atmospheric pressure.....I ate a half a pickle and four olives yesterday....full of salt....a NO-NO with Meniers people but I have little discipline anymore.)

Oh! Let me, a peon explain something to YOU, Old Savage.....No one ever learns it all and usually, at a point in a man's life, he slowly turns off the "learning machine" and lives off of past knowledge....pretty much what I do...live in the past.

Jim T is the MASTER on the board and if Paco was here, those two would be unsurpassed. Those guys have a doctorate with oak leaves....GOLD oak leaves that the German high command would award their finest. I'm still an intern, knowing little about the science of internal ballistics or metallurgy.

Jim T may not know it but I read every word he writes and try to absorb it...but...my hard drive is outdated and can't consume much anymore.

Love the pics from the old days....you with your poop eating grin around the ladies...and the fish....(fish and women go together)

Hey Jim......the guy in the middle with the red shirt on is a ringer for my BIL's uncle......I said to myself, "what the hell is Uncle Pete doing with Jim T.?"

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 09, 2021 2:16 pm

Perfect, can I have it? How many Bens?

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun May 09, 2021 2:19 pm

Love the 1893 in .410.....yea, guns we should have bought.....like the dummy I am I walked into my buddies gunshop andsaw one of those hanging on the gun rack with a price tag of $499.....case mdition was 95%....... I told my bud, "you nuts, you could get $1200 for that .410!" He had one of his workers change the price and it sold two hours later.

Those were the days......when honesty ruled and if you do good with others, good things came back to you in other ways.

Yes Fred...you can have it....just remember the suitcase.........a suitcase with green is a man's best friend.

There's not a better model 65 in the world, unless it's in the box in the Winchester factory's back room.....I don't shoot this one either but I have shot it...about 20 rounds

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 09, 2021 2:22 pm

I think the .410 is from about 1932.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sun May 09, 2021 2:32 pm

Beautiful Marlin OS. I have never, not once, seen one of those up here.

And, I have to say, that Beautiful 65 just screams OS!

Not just any old 92. Something a little more refined, befitting our esteemed friend.

Disclaimer:
This was not a sales pitch intended to make Sixgun cash heavy. If OldWin could have fit it under the buffalo coat, it would now be in its final resting place in my gun room.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun May 09, 2021 2:33 pm

Yes...you are correct......these were give away guns for rich guys like you who had money to invest.

Here is an identical Model 65 that Don Grove has for sale.......he is known for very nice Winchesters and I've met him a few times but as I dress like a redneck he was not interested in talking to me....he wants $6500 for his and MINE is better....I examined his pictures and while nice, it's the same difference as a MS-64 and MS 65 in coin collecting....his to mine.....

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns- ... =101639205

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Sun May 09, 2021 2:43 pm

Hey sixgun ... the guy in the red shirt is an old long-time friend. I have known him since .. oh ... 1972. We hunted together in various places including Africa. We have walked with each other through tragedies. He's about 80 in the photo and that was 3 years ago or so. He still drives long-haul trucks! One of the toughest men I know.

And .. I appreciate the kind words you wrote, but I am no master of anything. I make ALL KINDS of mistakes. Just this week I shot 3 raccoons with a BERSA .22!! How could a master make that kind of mistake?

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun May 09, 2021 3:08 pm

Oh Jim! Your so full of "it"......A MASTER soon gets bored with conventional guns with known accuracy and needing a challenge, he resorts to different modes to dispatch things that need to be dispatched.

THATS why you chose the $1.98 Bersa.....

As you are far ahead of me in the knowledge department and you have unneededly resorted to junk guns, does that mean that I might become attracted to such JUNK? THATS the making of a nightmare...Rossi's, Uberti's, Bersa's, Taurus's, Hopkins & Allens, H&R's, Blue Jackets, Red Jackets, Iver Johnsons, blah blah.....

Well, the I.J and H&R's were meat and potatoes guns......they worked but just looked like junk......

I got to get to bed...ringing in my ears is louder than a jet plane

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun May 09, 2021 3:15 pm

This has been hanging in our living room for forty years........an original from the century before 1900.....contemporary JUNK.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sun May 09, 2021 3:30 pm

Sixgun wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 1:58 pm
Here Fred...you want a 32-20? This is a like new Model 65 ...one of the very last 1892 actions to leave the factory....most likely put together from parts after the war.----006

But......if

Holy moly Six!!
That’s beautiful

Here I’ve been drooling over a Browning Miroku 53 and you pull that out. I’m rekt.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Sun May 09, 2021 6:02 pm

Sixgun wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:08 pm Oh Jim! Your so full of "it"......A MASTER soon gets bored with conventional guns with known accuracy and needing a challenge, he resorts to different modes to dispatch things that need to be dispatched.

THATS why you chose the $1.98 Bersa.....

As you are far ahead of me in the knowledge department and you have unneededly resorted to junk guns

Man Six! You can lay it on thick. You are a Master in fields besides old original guns! You musta been something with the girls back in the day .....

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Sun May 09, 2021 6:53 pm

Deleted.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Sun May 09, 2021 8:07 pm

I looked more like John Wayne before the car wreck.

piller · Post by **piller** » Sun May 09, 2021 8:19 pm

Big Trail, or The Shootist John Wayne?

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Sun May 09, 2021 9:35 pm

Deleted.

piller · Post by **piller** » Sun May 09, 2021 10:16 pm

John Wayne carried it off.