33 WCF original Loads

[coyote nose]

For about the last 10 years I've been monkeying around with an 1886 Winchester in 33 WCF that I rebuilt. Besides the usual load development (using the only bullet available, a 200GN Hornady JFP) I have also been testing factory loads that I pick up at gun shows. Since the rounds are at least 50 years old and maybe 80 years old I pull the bullets, save the powder, deprime, anneal the neck only, reprime with a fresh primer, then put the powder charge back in and reseat the bullet. Of course every component is inspected and I wind up tossing a lot of cases and powder, but after a round is done it is off to the range where the load is chronographed and tested for accuracy. It is quite fun! Here is a picture from about 5 years ago of the results of 3 different Remington factory loads:

33fac4.JPG

Since a lot of the cases are untestable and thrown out due to preexisting neck cracks or I find corrosion inside, and often the powder is 'sticky' or stinks, I wind up with left over bullets. I have enough orphaned Winchester bullets that I want to try to reload them to Winchester factory specs. Now for some other calibers I have seen photos of Winchesters 'recipe cards' that detail the powder and load used. I have never seen one for the 33 WCF. Has anyone out there? Is anybody familiar with the Winchester factory load? I want to be clear that I do not need load data for the 33 WCF, I want WINCHESTERS load data for the 33 WCF. I am sure it varied over the years as I keep detailed notes as to what I find once I open up a case. With Remington all I have looked at have used a disc type powder that looks like either Sharpshooter or Lightning. All of the Winchesters I have examined have used an IMR type stick powder, with weights as low as 38 GN to as high as 48 GN, thus I am sure they varied the powder type over the years, which, if anyone has the cards Winchester used, would be detailed on it with the date the load was changed.

[gamekeeper]

Sorry I'm no help but it sure sounds like an interesting project.....

[GunnyMack]

Wait for Sixgun, he should wake up soon!

[M. M. Wright]

Did Turnbull do your Case Colors? Beautiful 86 sir.

[coyote nose]

Did Turnbull do your Case Colors? Beautiful 86 sir.

Yes they did the case colors. Thank you...it is a fantastic rifle.

[marlinman93]

I can't tell you what powders Winchester used, but the factory loads ran around 2200 fps with a 200 gr. bullet. I loaded my 1895 Marlin in .33W with 44 grs. of 4895 and a 200 gr. bullet and it chronographed very close to the factory level.

[JOG]

I also have a 1886 in 33wcf. Yours is quite specular. I was going to ask if Turnbull did the cased hardening
It's a tough caliber to find bullets for, Hornady stopped making the making the FP 200 gr bullet years ago.
Thanks to the gentleman on this forum for info provided on the 86 and the 33wcf caliber. Thanks to Six I have some rounds to shoot.
Once Sixguns see this post I'm sure he can help you out with anything you need to know about reloading for the 33 wcf.
Six has helped me immensely . His knowledge is amazing!
Good luck!

[coyote nose]

It's a tough caliber to find bullets for, Hornady stopped making the making the FP 200 gr bullet years ago.
Thanks to the gentleman on this forum for info provided on the 86 and the 33wcf caliber. Thanks to Six I have some rounds to shoot.

Before I found enough of the Hornady 200GN FP I used to buy their 200 GN spire point, then in the lathe remove the tip until I had a large enough flat. Without a lathe you could use a file. It took the weight down to about 182GN but they shot fine. You have to use the ones with a solid jacketed base to avoid having the bullet act like a 'tube' and blow out the lead core, sticking the jacket in the bore (was warned about this somewhere). Since then I read that by using a 225 GN Nosler Partition (I believe) and doing the same the weight will be 200 GN and the Nosler Partition have a very soft lead front section so the bullets will behave as they should on game animals. I never tried the Nosler because a member here sold me 3 1/2 boxes of the correct bullet, then by being diligent at gun shows I have found several more boxes at a good price. I am in good shape now for bullets. Just hit the gun shows and you should eventually find some.
Now.....a tough caliber to load for used to be the 41 Long Colt! I had to make cases out of 30-30 shells until I found enough at gun shows, and then Starline came to the rescue. My current pain to load for is the 44 Henry RF. I just bought the brass to start turning cases but other projects are in line first.

[KWK]

With Remington all I have looked at have used a disc type powder that looks like either Sharpshooter or Lightning. All of the Winchesters I have examined have used an IMR type stick powder, with weights as low as 38 GN to as high as 48 GN...

While later loads were 200 gr at 2200 fps, the early loads were about 2050 fps, using some powder no doubt now discontinued. So, there will be a large range in charges used in factory cartridges.

For what it's worth, QuickLoad thinks you can match the original speed with cast bullets and 2400.

[coyote nose]

With Remington all I have looked at have used a disc type powder that looks like either Sharpshooter or Lightning. All of the Winchesters I have examined have used an IMR type stick powder, with weights as low as 38 GN to as high as 48 GN...

While later loads were 200 gr at 2200 fps, the early loads were about 2050 fps, using some powder no doubt now discontinued. So, there will be a large range in charges used in factory cartridges.

For what it's worth, QuickLoad thinks you can match the original speed with cast bullets and 2400.

Yes, I am sure they used various powders. That is why I am wondering if anyone has the data Winchester used. They even coded the boxes as to which 'revision' the box was loaded with ( on the early boxes), this code matching what the card they kept on file said the load was. I will try to post some photos later of what I am talking about.

I have already done extensive load data development with cast bullets, gas check cast bullets (altho not with 2400), and the 200GNFP Hornady jacketed bullets. Developed a cast bullet 'plinking' load (rarely used now that I have enough jacketed), and a very nice 2215fps at muzzle jacketed load that averages 1.2" for 3 shots at 100 yards. I am quite happy with it. Ohio doesn't allow deer hunting with it, and I am not connected enough to draw big game tags out west, but the load is deadly on prairie dogs !! :

2012,9-13a,huntlight.jpg

What I am after is Winchesters original data so I can try loading some of the Winchester jacketed bullets I have, just to see what they can do.

[Sixgun]

You after original data? Who knows? Winchester was famous for using 3031 or the DuPont powder that preceded it. The ones I pulled apart looked like it. Hi-Vel #2 may have also been used, along with Lightning.

Your doing right on pulling the bullets, annealing , repriming, and loading it back up but with all powders they deteriorate, even if they are in the case, loaded. I've chronographed original stuff at a bit over 2000 to low 2100's but that's my rifle. So many variables come in that can change it.

My favorite all time load was 42 grains of 3031 and the Hornady bullet but since changed to 44 grains of H or IMR 4895. Killed a lot of deer and one elk with both of those loads. I've suspected both of those loads were a bit more than factory. If I was going to make a hypothesis I'd say 42 grains of IMR or H 4895 would equal factory ballistics.

------006

[Sixgun]

Best I can do...
This book was written sometime around the late 1930's

[coyote nose]

Thanks. I have that book, Phil Sharpe I believe. The powder I pull from original loads looks like 3031 but of course that is just a subjective observation on my part. The powder that preceded 3031 was DuPont # 17 or # 17 1/2. I have a can of # 17 1/2 but the "1/2" signifies tin added to the powder to combat copper fouling. After the introduction of gilding metal the tin was no longer needed. I tried it anyway with the following result:

tin.jpg

A tin plated bore!! Fortunately it easily scrubbed out. DuPont listed suggested charges on the back of the can. I reduced the charge a bit and started testing with it, yet the first shot gave me sticky extraction. I cant imagine shooting the suggested charge! Way too high.

My favorite load is the 200GN Hornady Flat Nose and 43.0 GN IMR 4064. I get an actual 2210fps at the muzzle and as stated a few posts ago, it is quite accurate, and in my rifle is slightly below max which is fine with me. Of the 30 or 40 loads I tested, this one was also the most accurate. A charge of 39.0 IMR 3031 was the second most accurate, at a velocity of 2185fps.

Your reply of "who knows?" regarding original data is why I posted here!! I was hoping someone would know!

[JOG]

If your getting 1.2 inch grouping at 100 yards, I would stick with that for sure!
That's dam fine shooting for a old rifle.
What year was your 1886 manufactured?
I think the 33wcf was the last cartridge to come out for the 86.
Smokeless makes it very desirable to me.

[KWK]

... this code matching what the card they kept on file said the load was.

Your opening post was clear. My comments were directed to those who were not aware of the “original“ factory levels.

I’ve never seen a Winchester factory card and am curious to see one of yours.

[coyote nose]

If your getting 1.2 inch grouping at 100 yards, I would stick with that for sure!
That dam fine shooting for a old rifle.
What year was your 1886 manufactured?
I think the 33wcf was the last cartridge to come out for the 86.
Smokeless makes it very desirable to me.

Oh yes I am QUITE happy with it! Keep in mind that group size is for 3 shots, not 5. I use 3 shot groups at 100 yards as my 'test standard' for large game rifles. Figure its more realistic of what I would need in the field. The gun was made in 1906 but the barrel is new, part of the rebuild. Had a guy in Montana make the blank for me. Yes the .33 was the last in the 1886 rifles, although the .348 came out in 1936 in the Model 71, but frankly, the Model 71 is more like an 1886 Version 2.0

[coyote nose]

... this code matching what the card they kept on file said the load was.

Your opening post was clear. My comments were directed to those who were not aware of the “original“ factory levels.

I’ve never seen a Winchester factory card and am curious to see one of yours.

Here is the only example I saved on my computer. I think I got this out of a book or magazine article. I have seen them for 44 WCF and other cartridges also but didnt think to save them at the time. This one is for the 7.65 Mauser. You simply look up the date or date code on the box of ammunition, then look at the card and can see what it was loaded with.

wincard.JPG

You can see how the load changed over time.

Here is a box of 38-55 that shows an actual date, at the bottom right. It is my understanding that they also used a code at times.

winbox.JPG

[KWK]

Here is the only example I saved on my computer.

Spiffy. Thank you. I recall reading modern ammo might be loaded with special blends. On that card the powders were all standard commercial offerings.

[coyote nose]

Here is the only example I saved on my computer.

Spiffy. Thank you. I recall reading modern ammo might be loaded with special blends. On that card the powders were all standard commercial offerings.

Yes, but look how the charge of Hi-Vel#3 was reduced over the years, and Winchester has a 'blend' number. Probably the Lot Number of the powder. I am sure they did extensive testing of the lot and adjusted the charge appropriately.

[Scott Tschirhart]

You guys are an incredible resource of information about this cartridge. I'm impressed.

[win40-82]

Don't believe I've seen any case colored .33 Winchester other than ones that have been restored. Doesn't bother me and its a beautiful rifle. Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life. Have fun.

[JOG]

Winchester made 1886 in color cased with early models.

[Sixgun]

Winchester made 1886 in color cased with early models.

I'm going out of my head soooooo I may be wrong...but I've never seen a case colored 33 as all were lightweights or extra lightweights and all of those guns were blued with nickel steel barrels......one thing for sure I'd bet my finest Colt on and that there never was a full octagoned 33....

But the gun above is a beauty and OP did say he had it custom put together.---006

[JOG]

Winchester made 1886 in color cased with early models.

I'm going out of my head soooooo I may be wrong...but I've never seen a case colored 33 as all were lightweights or extra lightweights and all of those guns were blued with nickel steel barrels......one thing for sure I'd bet my finest Colt on and that there never was a full octagoned 33....

But the gun above is a beauty and OP did say he had it custom put together.---006

I stand corrected! Perhaps I'm thinking of a modern repro I saw at the Gettysburg show a few year's back.
Did the Italian's make a repro 86, or was it just the Japanese?

[Sixgun]

Winchester made 1886 in color cased with early models.

I'm going out of my head soooooo I may be wrong...but I've never seen a case colored 33 as all were lightweights or extra lightweights and all of those guns were blued with nickel steel barrels......one thing for sure I'd bet my finest Colt on and that there never was a full octagoned 33....

But the gun above is a beauty and OP did say he had it custom put together.---006

I stand corrected! Perhaps I'm thinking of a modern repro I saw at the Gettysburg show a few year's back.
Did the Italian's make a repro 86, or was it just the Japanese?

I have no idea...the only thing I know is that most Italian guns are not worth the space they take up....the Jap guns are of of top quality, stronger than the originals but without the craftsmanship. (Fit and finish) ...South American guns need to stay where they are made.......there or the recycle bin

[coyote nose]

[/quote]

I'm going out of my head soooooo I may be wrong...but I've never seen a case colored 33 as all were lightweights or extra lightweights and all of those guns were blued with nickel steel barrels......one thing for sure I'd bet my finest Colt on and that there never was a full octagoned 33....

But the gun above is a beauty and OP did say he had it custom put together.---006
[/quote]

Sixgun you get to keep your finest Colt!!! Yes this gun started out as a 33WCF lightweight round barrel blued 1886 that I just could not get decent accuracy out of. I rebuilt it and about 10 years ago detail the rebuild here:

https://www.levergunscommunity.org/view ... 64#p419964

[Old Savage]

That is impressive work there.

I would never risk one of my cherished Rossis trying anything like that.

[450 Fuller]

Own three original Winchester 1886 rifles in 33 WCF and reload for them with C-H dies in that caliber. Also have 3 or 4 boxes of W-W original
ammunition. These old boxes are collectible, as are the cartridges inside.
These are nickel steel smokeless 86 rifles, including one full magazine rifle made in 1903. This rifle also has a Lyman 21 receiver sight.
The bore is in excellent shape, indicating that it was well cared for though probably carried more than shot.

These 1886 rifles in 33 WCF also include an excellent half magazine rifle along with a semi-deluxe 1886 with checkered forend and pistol grip checkered stock.
The 33 WCF can be reloaded and probably the best brass can be obtained by reforming 40-65 Starline cases, as the 40-65 is easier to reform than 45-70 brass.
An article in the 1977 January issue of Handloader magazine is found on reloading the 33 WCF: the author found his best accurate loads used the Hornady 200 gr FP bullet with
H-4831 powder. The 200 gr FP bullet as mentioned previously-is no longer made by Hornady. I still retain about 3 boxes of these bullets. The Hawk bullet Co also makes
180-200 gr bullets. These are excellent hunting bullets, along with the Hornadys.( The Lee factory crimp die is very helpful in 33 WCF). I have also used the Nosler 210 gr Partition bullet for elk, handy if in bear country. These have to be single chamber loaded due to their spitzer shape. New powders like Accurate LT 30 have the same burning rate as H-4198 and both will accurately reach 2000-2100 fps with 200 gr bullets. I do not push the velocity
much in handloads as these rifles are over 100 years old. A couple hundred fps is really not noticed by white tail or mule deer, while accuracy is much more important.

As an historical note, Ben Lilly, the famous AZ-NM bear-cat hunter with hounds, regularly carried a full magazine 1886 in 33 WCF for decades. He actually killed
a couple of grizzlies with his 1886 in 33. They were also used in Canada-and Alaska. The 1886 in 33 WCF has always given a good account on game
and paved the way for the Model 71 a few years later. They are first class rifles.

[Drawdown]

This is an outstanding thread, an 86 in 33wcf being to me the most desirable for my use, I'd sure like to try for a hunting rifle, but they're as rare as hens teeth and cost a fortune if possible,
plus the next to no components to reload! And I'm in the thought agreement of Six, as concerning the new Winchester Leverguns, although i despise the safety! But am constantly considering getting a new 1886 SRC, but have never got the urge for anything 45-70 or 90. So that road goes round n round with an entrance hardly visible! Does anyone know the book in the pic that Sixgun gave, it's not viewable now?
But lotta good stuff on here, very interesting to consider!

[Drawdown]

Own three original Winchester 1886 rifles in 33 WCF and reload for them with C-H dies in that caliber. Also have 3 or 4 boxes of W-W original
ammunition. These old boxes are collectible, as are the cartridges inside.
These are nickel steel smokeless 86 rifles, including one full magazine rifle made in 1903. This rifle also has a Lyman 21 receiver sight.
The bore is in excellent shape, indicating that it was well cared for though probably carried more than shot.

These 1886 rifles in 33 WCF also include an excellent half magazine rifle along with a semi-deluxe 1886 with checkered forend and pistol grip checkered stock.
The 33 WCF can be reloaded and probably the best brass can be obtained by reforming 40-65 Starline cases, as the 40-65 is easier to reform than 45-70 brass.
An article in the 1977 January issue of Handloader magazine is found on reloading the 33 WCF: the author found his best accurate loads used the Hornady 200 gr FP bullet with
H-4831 powder. The 200 gr FP bullet as mentioned previously-is no longer made by Hornady. I still retain about 3 boxes of these bullets. The Hawk bullet Co also makes
180-200 gr bullets. These are excellent hunting bullets, along with the Hornadys.( The Lee factory crimp die is very helpful in 33 WCF). I have also used the Nosler 210 gr Partition bullet for elk, handy if in bear country. These have to be single chamber loaded due to their spitzer shape. New powders like Accurate LT 30 have the same burning rate as H-4198 and both will accurately reach 2000-2100 fps with 200 gr bullets. I do not push the velocity
much in handloads as these rifles are over 100 years old. A couple hundred fps is really not noticed by white tail or mule deer, while accuracy is much more important.

As an historical note, Ben Lilly, the famous AZ-NM bear-cat hunter with hounds, regularly carried a full magazine 1886 in 33 WCF for decades. He actually killed
a couple of grizzlies with his 1886 in 33. They were also used in Canada-and Alaska. The 1886 in 33 WCF has always given a good account on game
and paved the way for the Model 71 a few years later. They are first class rifles.

450F, in case you'd be interested, there's a great article about Ben Lily i read near a year ago? I'm pretty sure April 1962 Issue of Guns Magazine, which can easily be downloaded to view on the Website. Best my memory that's the issue, and by memory I read few things I'd never read anywhere else! The writer went to the ?family who had a farm or ranch? that was near the area in N. Mex where Ben spent a lotta time, I think near a cave he resided in often, so forth. But the writer got know Ben well, spent time with Ben, by staying with that family, who obviously knew him as good as anyone! Couple things I recall he pointed out while being there, Bens carrying a Savage 99 in 250-3000. Now there's pics elsewhere of Ben holding a Mod 99, and stated he probably borrowed it? IDK, but he used it entire time thie writer was there???
And the Lady of house told him, once Ben ate breakfast with them, and payed for it by writing her a check for 40cents.
But 8 need reread refresh my own memory. Searching out Ben Lily was what first got my interest in the 33wcf, number years ago!

[coyote nose]

Wow, interesting to see this 4 year old thread of mine rejuvenated. I still haven't found any factory data cards for the powders they originally loaded them with, but with the interest here thought I would post a photo taken about a decade ago when I was testing all the factory ammo that i had. You can see it really shoots good out of this rifle. These were all from a bench at 100 yards with a tang sight, 3 shots. I put colored paper under the targets so the shots are visible in the photos. The rifle still looks the same and a couple of times a year I take it out and plink at a 100 yard gong offhand with it. Developed a much reduced load using IMR4064 and the 200GN Hornady flat point that is easier on the gun than the full house load I would use for hunting. My dream, which will go unrealized unfortunately, would be to take a moose in Wyoming with it. Oh well...maybe in my next life! Clicking on photo should enlarge it (I hope)

win1886-16a.jpg

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Once you find the load card, you'd then have to find the powder. I saw an unopened can of HiVel No.2 up on GB the other day for $50. You might should start gobbling some of those up.

[samsi]

Ken Waters was fairly knowledgeable of the 33WC. It's been a minute or two since I read it, but I recall that there's a bunch of suggested load data in his Notebook and he may have dissected some old factory ammo as well.

[coyote nose]

Ken Waters was fairly knowledgeable of the 33WC. It's been a minute or two since I read it, but I recall that there's a bunch of suggested load data in his Notebook and he may have dissected some old factory ammo as well.

Unfortunately not much in Ken Waters books on the 33. Only a few loads listed in articles of his like "Loading the Old Ones" and articles of that ilk in Handloader Magazine (and thus his "Pet Loads" book). His works are always where I first turn when reloading ANY cartridge. In his "Notebook" he devotes 1 page to it and does not list any factory loads.

[coyote nose]

Once you find the load card, you'd then have to find the powder. I saw an unopened can of HiVel No.2 up on GB the other day for $50. You might should start gobbling some of those up.

Yes indeed you are quite correct, but some of the loads may use powders such as IMR 4064 or 3031 that are still around. That's why I'd like to see what they used.

[Drawdown]

It sure is a beautiful rifle, and apparently a one of a kind! Good luck finding out what you're looking for towards it. No better rifle & cartridge to be in a baffle with, wish I could help, but I'm not 33 knowledgeable! Wouldn't mind be in same circumstances with it myself, it'd be an enjoyable project!