Going to start reloading for my Marlin 1894C in .357 Magnum

wildmanh · Post by **wildmanh** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:56 am

This weekend I went to Sportsmans Warehouse to get some ammo and reloading supplies. Figured I start reloading for my 1894C and Blackhawk. I love shooting the Marlin but .38 special and .357 Mag has gotten a lot more expencive here in the last few months so if I'm going to use them as much as I want to I need to reload. Anywhays I picked up the following:

1 pound of Alliant 2400 powder
200 CCI 250 Magnum Small Pistol Primers
200 Hornady .357 38 CAL 125 GR HP/XTP bullets
.357 Mag reloadig manual

Turns out I only have about 130 .357 Magnum cases and at least 200 .38 Special cases. So I'll be buying some different powder and Primers when I get some more money. Probably end up using the same bullets.

According to the loading manual 15.5 grains of 2400 should work in both my Marlin and Ruger Blackhawk with that bullet.

Got any recomendations or comments? Also whats a good powder for .38 Special? Thanks,

Heber

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Mon May 19, 2008 3:29 pm

I've been reloading my Ladywife's pair just like yours for a few months now.
According to many sources consulted, 2400 is a very well matched choice for .357, and her guns bear that out.
In the rifle, 15.0gr of 2400 under a 158gr wearing a jacket drilled 'em down the center. It was also fairly hot and thumpy in the little carbine, and the 6 1/2in barrel Blackhawk likes 'em too. But the standard loads for her are super-light recoil, due to her problems with pain.
Trail Boss, a cowboy load powder, is good for those super-lights, as it burns very clean for the power level. 3.0gr under a 125gr is hardly noticeable, and shoots pretty straight as well.

Rainier Ballistics makes a swaged lead bullet that is electroplated all over with copper. That keeps the lead dust out of your lungs, and they shoot well besides. For rolling your own, it's a lot cheaper. Only thing, they don't have a cannelure or any grooves, they are smooth-sided. If you you use a Lee Factory Crimp die, it bites down on them as tight as any roll crimp.
I guess that's what made the biggest difference for me. I get a high level of consistency with that crimp, and it adjusts simply by turning the knob on top. No wrenches.

Another good powder is Power Pistol. It's good for medium loads in either .357 or .38. I found 4.0gr to work well in the .38's pushing 125gr bullets, but I haven't tested that powder extensively yet, as I stick with the lighter power levels mostly, and Trail Boss fills the case so well. It's really fluffy stuff!

For 180gr silhouette bullets, hard hitting deep-punching loads, 13.0gr of 2400 seems most accurate, but I never found the top power of this load. I hear it's close to 13.8, but that begins to compress. I don't need it anyway.

I haven't built any 125gr loads with 2400 yet, but it seems that with that powder, the hotter you charge it, the more accurate it shoots.

Most of what you got there is what I'm using, and I can tell you it'll work. It's an excellent starting place.

Long winded, sorry. Hope it helps...

Gryphon

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon May 19, 2008 4:21 pm

my best group with 2400 and the Marlin 1894 was 10 grains with a 180 gr lasercast. Above that and they spread way out. I suppose they might tighten up again near the top of the scale but didn't want to go there. (that was with the .357 case, NOT 38 special)

dave in maine · Post by **dave in maine** » Mon May 19, 2008 6:41 pm

i don't know where i read it,but using the 125 gr bulet with a hot load may cause severe cutting in the chamber of your firearm it might be worth your time to look into it.
dave

wildmanh · Post by **wildmanh** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:03 pm

dave in maine wrote:i don't know where i read it,but using the 125 gr bulet with a hot load may cause severe cutting in the chamber of your firearm it might be worth your time to look into it.
dave

Thanks for the heads up. I read that it happens with lead bullets but copper is supposedly okay. And mine are copper jecketed. But will do more research. Would hate to cause problems for my guns or have a harder time cleaning them.

Gryphon Black, thanks for sharing your experiences. Thats exactly what I've been looking for. Glad it's working in your guns.

sobenk, Do you know if the 180 grain loads will work in a Ruger blackhawk? Or is this more of a "Rifle" round?

Heber

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:23 pm

i use 158 grain bullets with Unique powder. how much depends on purpose. Cowboy loads - 4.0 grains for 38 special, 5.5gr for .357. Hotter loads see your loading manual.

bones507 · Post by **bones507** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:29 pm

I shot some 125gr jacketed but only about 50 rounds, they didtnt do well. I was told the least you shold use is 158 grs as they stabilize better.
That said, i went out today and shot some 158 gr JHP,s under 14.1 grs of 2400 and got good groups at 50 yards, at 100 they opened up but this is due more to me than anything else, 48 year old eyes aint what they were 10 years ago,lol.
Im going to get a peep sight as i put up a post about it earlier as the factory V notch isnt doing me any favors as i figured out, after being told.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:23 pm

I suggest Unique. You'll be able to use that in several cartridges and it will do very well.

bones507 · Post by **bones507** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:35 am

Hobie wrote:I suggest Unique. You'll be able to use that in several cartridges and it will do very well.

I used Unique about 7 years ago, had a 1 pound can and it is extremely versatile, can be used in almost every cartridge. Thing i didnt like was my Revo was filthy afterwards and i mean filthy. I mainly use 231, power pistol and 2400. I like power pistol out of all of them although i have heard a guy or two complain about it, dont know why.

clubkey · Post by **clubkey** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:37 am

I use both 2400 and Unique in all my 38 Spcl/357 Mag reloading and have been doing so since the 70's. However, two other excellent choices are Bullseye and SR4756. All four powders are very versatile, but I agree with Hobie Unique is the one powder I use the most of the four.

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:22 pm

I've always found power pistol to burn cleanly in whatever I used it for. Only problem I ever had with it, sometimes it doesn't all drop from my measure. Some kinda static cling to the plastic. Bullseye does the same thing. I'll have it adjusted perfect, and a few throws later, one comes out way light. Then as I'm scratching my head, the last few grains fall free from the measure tube and hit the table, solving the puzzle.
That never happens with trail boss, cuz the individual grains are so blinkin' huge! They look like little doughnuts!

Although it doesn't happen with 2400 either, and that stuff ain't huge...

I read Ken Waters report on the little Marlin .357 in his book, Pet Loads, and he says the one he had didn't like the lighter bullets. 158 was optimum for accuracy. He also said there were two powders that best suited the two-gun load concept for this rifle paired with a Ruger Blackhawk. If you're gonna build one load that you expect to shoot from either gun, that is. 2400 was his first choice, and I don't remember the other one.

That report was very informative, I thought, and I highly recommend you check it out. Sportsman's Warehouse has it. I just found the copy that wasn't plastic wrapped, set it down on the table of one of their shooting benches, and started reading. I couldn't afford to take the book home, but the SW is 4 min from my house, so I can go read out the book whenever I need to for now.

Gryphon

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Tue May 20, 2008 5:17 pm

Sounds like fun, Wildmanh!

Somthing was bugging me, so I looked up the 125 gr. loads in
Speer's manual #13. In the pistol section for the 357, they
recommend against magnum primers with 2400 these days as high
pressure can result. No such caution in the rifle section, though.
Hmmmm.

In the pistol section: "Changing from Magnum to standard primers
significantly improved it's performance compared to the data in
the Speer Manual #12. Do not use Magnum primers with the 2400
orViht. N110 loads shown here or high pressures will result."

Speer's 125 gr. loads list 16.5 - 17.5 gr of 2400 for both pistol
and rifle.

So? Food for thought. You might want to try things both ways -
LIGHTER loads with mag primers and the Speer load with standard.

Shoot some groups off the bench for us and report back!

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:32 pm

I am in the same boat as wildmanh, trying to find a good load for my Ruger GP100 and 1894. I have been playing with Win 296 and 158 JHP. 296 makes me a little nervous, since there is a small window of load levels (Max - 3%).

Does 2400 work well with jacketed and hard cast (Oregon Trails) bullets?

Same with Unique? I looked through my books and it looks like you can load Unique in just about everthing.

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:15 pm

I have only used 2400 on jacketed bullets, somebody else will have to testify on their use with the softer ones...

I think that bit about magnum primers causing high pressures is B.S.
2400 is, I believe, the original factory powder for the .357mag, and has been used by a lot of people over a lot of years in this chambering, and a lot of others as well. If there were a pressure spike problem, folks would have found it.
And we are talking about Ruger revolvers and Marlin leverguns. Either is capable of some pretty high pressure, way more than the loads we're talking about.

I did hear that using a standard primer can increase the pressure by starting the powder off a little slower, and not shoving the bullet out of place too early. Apparently, a mag primer can push a bullet out of the case on primer pressure *before* the powder gets a good start, which results in less resistance to the burn, which in turn lowers the yield. A standard primer is said to solve this problem, and also a really firm crimp.
Higher pressures and faster muzzle speed with a standard primer on some powders.
So are we all thoroughly confused now?
I have used the magnum primer for magnum level .357 exclusively, but given this debate, I think I'll just run a test batch of my favourites and sort out which primer seems right on the power loads.
I use 125gr bullets for light recoil target loads, and those just get a standard.

Gryphon

bones507 · Post by **bones507** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:07 am

I use standard small pistol primers with 2400 in 357 loads, but im not going all the way to the top of the scale either. I havent had any split cases or cratered primers so i got to figure its safe enough. I have seen high pressure signs in rifles, notably the 6.5x 55 swedish, the primers and cracks and i paid attention FAST, last thing i wanted was a bolt imbedded in my forehead.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu May 22, 2008 4:18 am

about the primers, I tried both regular and magnum and the magnums were more accurate in that particular load. I don't want to stock all kinds of primers, so I'm sticking to the magnum ones. I read that magnum primers can increase pressure 10%. So if you are staying under the maximum, try them. If you are going right up to the top, stick to what the loadbook says.

I got a little leading from using lasercast bullets with 2400, the group here advised it might have been from having copper residue in the bore. I cleaned it thoroughly and have not had a recurrence. But it might be a little early to tell. Another thought was the hard bullets like lasercast need a stiff load or the base doesn't obturate or seal against the wall of the bore. This allows hot gases to leak around the bullet and melts the lead.

I am trying, and got a nice group with, SR 4759 in .357. This too is a low power load. At 25 yards I got a 5 shot cloverleaf. I bought it for silhouette rifle and if it works for .357 I won't have to stock another powder. I happen to like working with it. It's bulky, so it fills the case well, and it's easy for me to measure and weigh (I spoon the stuff into the pan, and don't want to use an automatic dispenser). A double charge will spill over. It's nearly the slowest pistol powder, so it might burn a little cooler. I have more testing to do but it seems to be working out.

As far as the 180 grain bullets working for pistol, I don't see why not. Your pistol's twist rate may not be made for them but that shouldn't be a big deal.

I don't know about this from experience, but I got the idea a good pistol load would use a faster powder because of the short barrel, whereas a rifle could benefit a little from a slower powder like 2400. Any comments on this?

Saltcreek · Post by **Saltcreek** » Sun May 25, 2008 8:30 pm

I have loaded for 35 years with 2400. Magnum primers are not needed or recommended for. On the other hand, magnum primers are recommended by manufacturer's for ball powder like WW296 and H110 which need it for reliable consistent ignition especially in cold weather. 15.5 grains of 2400 with a 158 grain bullet is getting on the warmer side and I certainly would not start there. 15 grains is the "classic" load. I have pistols where the primers start to flow at 14.4 grains so work up for YOUR guns.
Flame cutting does not effect rifle chambers but happens to revolvers with some loads. I have a S&W 586 and 686 this has happened to. 2400 is not prone to flame cut whereas WW296 will. 296 burns hotter than 2400 and is a ball powder with coating which makes it harder to ignite as opposed to 2400s flake powder. You will actually get better SD with 2400 using standard primers; Elmer Keith proved this many years ago. Flame cutting usually happens with lighter weight loads of 125 grains or less. Being a lighter 125 gr. bullet, the dwell time is shorter and the bullet is pushed out ever so much faster than a heavier 158. With lighter bullets the powder has less chance to burn as completely in the casing and chamber, or barrel for that matter. Therefore you have hotter flame still being ignited in the barrel/cylinder gap acting like a cutting torch. This is why a 125 gr. 357 mag load is traditionally so much more a flamethrower than any 158 grain load. Many time lapse photos bear this out.
I do not get leading with 2400 using hardcast bullets lubed with Lyman alox lube. I use 15 grains 2400, Lyman #358156GC, and CCI standard primers for 35 years. I also use 296 but with magnum primers and never with lighter bullets now. Never use soft swaged lead bullets (Speer, Hornady) with 357 mag loads or you will be peeling lead from the barrel.
If you want to shoot lead bullets, clean the copper out of the barrel first or you will be "soldering" lead to the barrel - lead and copper do not mix.

Cracker · Post by **Cracker** » Sun May 25, 2008 9:12 pm

I also us 2400 and Unique almost exclusivly and have played around with Trail Boss a little. My 170gr load uses 14.2gr of 2400 with WSP and clocks around 1500fps with no signs of excess pressures. I have taken the next step and cast my own bullets and have several that work very well. I am curently waiting on the delivery of a 75gr WC and for Ranch Dog to make his 190gr WPFGC tumble lube bullet available(Aug) and I will swithch from the 180RNFPGC BTB that I am currently using.

I also only load into .357 cases, no .38 in an attempt to avoid and chamber issues.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Sun May 25, 2008 9:28 pm

I own both a Marlin 1894c and a Rossi 92 SRC in .357 magnum.

My favorite loads (for both rifles) are using Orgon Trail 158gr RNFP bullets over a charge of 2400. Neither rifles has ever shonw signs of leading up the bore..

runfiverun · Post by **runfiverun** » Mon May 26, 2008 12:40 am

try 7.0gr of the 2400 in your 38 cases.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Mon May 26, 2008 12:05 pm

For a nice target/light load try, 3.9 grains of Unique with a 158 grain RN or TR lead bullet. This is from the Alliant suggested Cowboy loading for .357. Using .357 cases.

This is a very accurate load I shoot it in a Ruger three screw 6 1/2". It also shoots very well in a Marlin 94CB.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Mon May 26, 2008 8:20 pm

Wow! what a wealth of info. thanks