Blackhawk vs KFrame

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Tycer
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Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Tycer »

K Frames fit my hands. They shoot where I point. They don’t come in 32 wcf.
Colt pocket positives don’t fit. Police positives don’t either.

I don’t want to have two different loads for rifle and sidearm.
The only Blackhawks I’ve shot had big overmolded stocks but were fun.
One of the Buckeye special 32 convertibles is calling my name. I cannot however find a local gun to hold.

Thoughts?
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by piller »

There are lots of aftermarket grips for the Blackhawk frames. If you want it, find some aftermarket grips and ask questions of the manufacturer. Get it and enjoy it.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by 2ndovc »

I had one of the Blackhawk Buckeye specials. Accurate revolver but to me, it was a very heavy pistol for the .32-20.

There are older S&W K frames out there, almost bought one the other day on GunBroker. It was in great shape, but went higher than I wanted to spend that day. A lot of them are really beat to snot and lousy bores because of the BP ammo, but there are some good ones out there still.

jb 8)
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Tycer »

2ndovc wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:46 pm I had one of the Blackhawk Buckeye specials. Accurate revolver but to me, it was a very heavy pistol for the .32-20.

There are older S&W K frames out there, almost bought one the other day on GunBroker. It was in great shape, but went higher than I wanted to spend that day. A lot of them are really beat to snot and lousy bores because of the BP ammo, but there are some good ones out there still.

jb 8)
Unfortunately not in 32wcf and no gunsmith wants to do that conversion to mine.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Rockrat »

Pick up a 30 carbine blackhawk. Pretty close to the Buckeye special except for the extra 1" of barrel
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by AJMD429 »

I believe there have been a couple different Ruger’s that were re-cylindered and/or re-barreled for 32-20 and 32 H&R. I’m not sure which frames they were built on, but someone else here will know that.

I also think I remember seeing some entry-level revolvers in 32 H&R five or 10 years ago that were made by Charter Arms or Harrington and Richardson or one of those companies.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Sixgun »

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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by 2ndovc »

Tycer wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:27 pm
2ndovc wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:46 pm I had one of the Blackhawk Buckeye specials. Accurate revolver but to me, it was a very heavy pistol for the .32-20.

There are older S&W K frames out there, almost bought one the other day on GunBroker. It was in great shape, but went higher than I wanted to spend that day. A lot of them are really beat to snot and lousy bores because of the BP ammo, but there are some good ones out there still.

jb 8)
Unfortunately not in 32wcf and no gunsmith wants to do that conversion to mine.
They are out there, just have to look a bit.
Cheap one;
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/889776765


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All three are .32WCF.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Tycer »

Ray wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:29 am Errr..... I thought you were wanting a k-frame 32-20. Many $$$$ for a custom build.

http://bowenclassicarms.com/catalog/smi ... kages.html

Nobody here can tell you if a blackhawk is going to fit and point for you.
Ohh, a Kframe 32-20 would be a dream come true! But the wait time😳. By the time I have the patience to wait a long time I’ll be too old to shoot it. 😃
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by vancelw »

I have, for a long time, wanted a double-action revolver that would handle HV .32-20.
No luck.
Gunsmiths want a fortune for the conversion. Always mumble about the extraction....
I have a Cimarron Model P, Jr in .32-20/.32 H&R mag and a Ruger Buckeye in .32-20/.32 H&R mag.
I am tempted to ream the Buckeye's .32 mag cylinder out to .327 Federal magnum, but .32-20 HV is hotter so why bother? Unless simply to be able to fire an additional caliber. But I already have and SP101 in .327
The Buckeye is indeed heavy.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by JOG »

Around here you rarely see a decent K frame for sale. I do have a flat top Ruger Blackhawk in 44 spl. that I enjoy shooting regularly. It makes a good companions gun with my 44 mag. Marlin 1894 Marlin. The Marlin shoots 44 spl. without any problems. I do keep the 44 spl. to a minimum in the Marlin. I seemed to get very good accuracy shooting Winchester White Box 44 mags from the Marlin. It look's like a rainy weekend here in Maine. I guess I'll catch up on some old cowboy show's on METV or H&I. Enjoy your weekend gentleman!
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Tycer »

2ndovc wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:03 am
Tycer wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:27 pm
2ndovc wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:46 pm I had one of the Blackhawk Buckeye specials. Accurate revolver but to me, it was a very heavy pistol for the .32-20.

There are older S&W K frames out there, almost bought one the other day on GunBroker. It was in great shape, but went higher than I wanted to spend that day. A lot of them are really beat to snot and lousy bores because of the BP ammo, but there are some good ones out there still.

jb 8)
Unfortunately not in 32wcf and no gunsmith wants to do that conversion to mine.
They are out there, just have to look a bit.
Cheap one;
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/889776765


Image
Image

All three are .32WCF.
I’ve gotten mixed answers from folks in the know about even the later year K frame hand ejectors being able to withstand a diet of HV 32-20. Some say the later ones we’re actually produced much earlier and assembled as needed from bin parts.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by 765x53 »

I've been watching this one on GB. It has gone begging twice now. Be my guest. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/883899889
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by marlinman93 »

Being a S&W fan, and a SAA style fan, I have both in .32-20, and the S&W is by far my favorite. If funds allow it, I'd choose the used S&W every time over a Blackhawk. But I'd also choose some of the Italian made SAA clones in .32-20 over a Blackhawk also.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Sixgun »

People must understand there is a HUGE difference between factory HV 32-20 ammo and an individual's mental concept of a HV round. Most factory HV ammo would shoot an old gun loose while an individual's HV round would turn a cylinder into fragments. I've chronographed a lot of them.....even the factories were not stupid at that time.

Smith and Wessons heat treatment of the cylinders happened after or during their 2nd model Hand Ejector.....don't quote me on this, I'm thinking somewhere around 1910.

The pre war Spanish copies in 32-20 that are floating around are junk. I would not shoot them with 1 grain of Unique in em.

Unless you have money to burn, it makes no sense to have a modern gun converted to 32-20 when the 32 mag and the 327 will do what you need. How can you feel nostalgic after spending 2 g's to have another such modern gun converted only to reap 20% of the extra money you spent when you go to sell it...like I said, "money to burn" and if you have it, may the Lord bless you.

Buying a worn out old gun in 32-20 or maybe another gun that was not your original choice to satisfy the itch is the same as buying a Harley Sportster when you really wanted an Ultra Glide.

In order to have an original calibered 32-20 handgun of your choice that will handle a steady diet of whatever you want to put in there leaves you with but 2 choices......a Single Action Colt or a Ruger Buckeye convertible.

This gets shot with light loads..3 grains of Bullseye and a 115 Lyman.....beer can accurate to 100 yards....shipped to the Belknap Hardware store, Louisville, Ky. in 1906.

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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

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Sixgun wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:27 pm
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😮 sexy gun 😮
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Rockrat »

There was the Blackhawk in 32mag and the single six too. The single seven was a 327fed.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by 6pt-sika »

I had one of the Blackhawk Buckeye 32/20 32 H&R guns . Bought it unfired in the box kept it maybe five years and resold it unfired in the box .
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

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I dropped the hammer on it tonight. Should be here later next week. Will keep y’all posted.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by vancelw »

Most of us. 32 wcf affeccionados who reload are well aware of the differences in normal pressure loads and the HV loads we make.

I shoot mine in my model 53 Browning and my Ruger Buckeye. And no, .327 Federal won't do what HV .32-20 will. Close, but not quite.

I doubt I will ever use my HV loads in a Cimarron, Uberti or original Colt.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

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vancelw wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:16 pm Most of us. 32 wcf affeccionados who reload are well aware of the differences in normal pressure loads and the HV loads we make.

I shoot mine in my model 53 Browning and my Ruger Buckeye. And no, .327 Federal won't do what HV .32-20 will. Close, but not quite.

I doubt I will ever use my HV loads in a Cimarron, Uberti or original Colt.
I’ve got a 92 that’s relined and a Rem 25. This Ruger is got good company.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

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The .32 WCF holds more powder, the .327 is a higher pressure round, but the difference in powder weight is just too much to overcome.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by piller »

I did do a little bit of searching. The high velocity data comes from rifles, and the .327 Fed is measured from a pistol. That does make the numbers a bit different. Comparing pistol data to pistol data, the .327 comes out on top.

I should set up my Chrony and check the loads from PillHer's pistol and rifle.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by OldWin »

Both the Blackhawk and K-frame are excellent handguns.
What the K lacks in the absolute strength and longevity of the Blackhawk, it more than makes up for in compactness and shootability.
As far as the .357 goes, I can't imagine life without either one. And also my 2nd gen Colt SAA for good measure.
I shoot the K best, the Colt next, with the Ruger a close third.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

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piller wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:11 am The .32 WCF holds more powder, the .327 is a higher pressure round, but the difference in powder weight is just too much to overcome.
My remaining 32/20 doesn't get high velocity loads -- it is used by grandkids shooting tin cans to about 50 yards. I no longer have a 327 Federal but intend to have one "one of these days" so I have no practical experience going for me on this topic.

However I do like to play "what if's" with the QuickLoad program and so I did a bit of this with the 32/20 vs the 327 Federal. And piller is right -- the extra powder capacity of the 32/20 (22 grains water capacity vs 19) overcomes (by a few fps) the extra pressure capability of the 327 Federal (45k psi vs 30.5k) using QL's max pressure specs. And I have never used Norma 123 so can't tell if it is true, but in QL the Norma 123 powder bested the other top contenders (Alliant 2400 and Ramshot Enforcer) by almost 100 fps. (I was using a Lyman 115 grain bullet and a 20" bbl length for my inputs). My first guess that Lil' Gun or H110 would be among the the top powder was wrong -- they are down there with the "also rans".
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by buckeyeshooter »

Ray wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:51 pm Not exactly K-frame but 1905s, m & p, and or hand ejector models in .32 w.c.f. abound for $300 to $1500 and k- frame grips can be fitted.....Saw one just the other day for $795 that had what looked like model 19-3 era grips on it....clerk said nobody wanted it because of the chambering.....32-20 ammo hard to find.....
I have my grandfathers hand ejector, 32 long. Still shoots great 114 years later.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

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earlmck wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:19 pm
piller wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:11 am The .32 WCF holds more powder, the .327 is a higher pressure round, but the difference in powder weight is just too much to overcome.
My remaining 32/20 doesn't get high velocity loads -- it is used by grandkids shooting tin cans to about 50 yards. I no longer have a 327 Federal but intend to have one "one of these days" so I have no practical experience going for me on this topic.

However I do like to play "what if's" with the QuickLoad program and so I did a bit of this with the 32/20 vs the 327 Federal. And piller is right -- the extra powder capacity of the 32/20 (22 grains water capacity vs 19) overcomes (by a few fps) the extra pressure capability of the 327 Federal (45k psi vs 30.5k) using QL's max pressure specs. And I have never used Norma 123 so can't tell if it is true, but in QL the Norma 123 powder bested the other top contenders (Alliant 2400 and Ramshot Enforcer) by almost 100 fps. (I was using a Lyman 115 grain bullet and a 20" bbl length for my inputs). My first guess that Lil' Gun or H110 would be among the the top powder was wrong -- they are down there with the "also rans".
Powders just don't always behave as we would think when we go to the upper ends of performance. That is something that the handloaders have found out, sometimes with unpleasant results. I have only been handloading for 20 years, so that puts me in the novice category at best. Guys like Paco, Jim Taylor, Mic McPherson, and some others make me look like a total newby to it. I probably will buy a copy of quickload this year. With the different powders than my typical ones available, I might need to experiment a little.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Blaine »

My 50th Anniversary Blackhawk 357 is small and svelte compared to any regular Blackhawks, new or old model. It's also not really made sturdy enough for a steady diet of heavy loads. I broke mine shooting stiff 180s, but Ruger made it new again.
It's very nice, very accurate with Specials....
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Tycer »

earlmck wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:19 pm
piller wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:11 am The .32 WCF holds more powder, the .327 is a higher pressure round, but the difference in powder weight is just too much to overcome.
My remaining 32/20 doesn't get high velocity loads -- it is used by grandkids shooting tin cans to about 50 yards. I no longer have a 327 Federal but intend to have one "one of these days" so I have no practical experience going for me on this topic.

However I do like to play "what if's" with the QuickLoad program and so I did a bit of this with the 32/20 vs the 327 Federal. And piller is right -- the extra powder capacity of the 32/20 (22 grains water capacity vs 19) overcomes (by a few fps) the extra pressure capability of the 327 Federal (45k psi vs 30.5k) using QL's max pressure specs. And I have never used Norma 123 so can't tell if it is true, but in QL the Norma 123 powder bested the other top contenders (Alliant 2400 and Ramshot Enforcer) by almost 100 fps. (I was using a Lyman 115 grain bullet and a 20" bbl length for my inputs). My first guess that Lil' Gun or H110 would be among the the top powder was wrong -- they are down there with the "also rans".
Howdy Earl, that surprises me too.
Will you run 7.5 grains of LG under the 3118 and the 311316 for me? I’m curious as to what QL says about velocity. 6” and 22”
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by earlmck »

Tycer wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:27 pm
earlmck wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:19 pm My first guess that Lil' Gun or H110 would be among the the top powder was wrong -- they are down there with the "also rans".
Howdy Earl, that surprises me too.
Will you run 7.5 grains of LG under the 3118 and the 311316 for me? I’m curious as to what QL says about velocity. 6” and 22”

QL doesn't have those particular bullet numbers but does use the 311359 which is a gas check 115 grain bullet. For a 32/20 it shows 7.5 grains Lil' Gun getting 1050 fps from a 22" bbl and 725 from the 6", at 6.4k psi. For the 327 Federal you'd jump to 9k psi, 1120 fps from 22" and 800 from the 6".

That's awful light loading -- if I wanted 1050 fps out of a 32-20 rifle I'd go with something like 3 grains of TiteGroup which would give a more normal pressure around 13k psi. QL thinks that wouldn't drop as much in the pistol, still giving 850 fps from a 6" bbl.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by BenT »

I have a 8 shot Blackhawk in 327 Federal. I mostly shoot 32 H&R with 100 grainers and my 327 loads are 115 grain cast at about 1000 fps. When I first go this 10 years ago. Hamilton Bowen would make a 32-20 cylinder to fit it for about $400. I never did get around to sending it in because the heavy bullets in 327 suited my needs.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Mike Armstrong »

The cheapest way to get a Blackhawk in .32-20 is to buy a New Model Blackhawk in .30 Carbine and shoot .32-20s in it (IF you can find one). The Old Models can also shoot .32-20 but will have to have a rim recess cut in the chambers, pricey unless you have access to a finish chamber reamer.

Sometimes you can find a .30 Carbine Blackhawk that somebody wants to get rid of because the carbine round is unbelievably LOUD (they used to say that bout the .32-20, but back in the day many of them had 4, 43/4, 5, or 5 1/2" barrels).

Black Hills "Cowboy" .32-20s are much milder than most factory loads and good small game rounds, right out of the box. "It's the flat point"!

But be sure that you have the tight right belt or that .30 Blackhawk will pull your pants off....
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Rockrat wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:55 pm There was the Blackhawk in 32mag and the single six too. The single seven was a 327fed.
I've got the Single Seven in .327 Federal Magnum. It is a great little gun. Will consume .327 Federal Magnum, .32 H&R Magnum, .32 S&W Long, .32 S&W and even .32 ACP (though the last one is not overly accurate). Worth considering, as you will be WELL under $1K with no conversion costs and it will do everything a .32-20 will do and more.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by piller »

In a pistol, the .327 Federal is hotter. In a rifle, with the higher pressure .32-20 loads, the extra powder makes a bit of difference.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by vancelw »

piller wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:51 pm In a pistol, the .327 Federal is hotter. In a rifle, with the higher pressure .32-20 loads, the extra powder makes a bit of difference.
If you ever get this way I'll let you shoot and chono my loads and see if you still think that.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Tycer »

:twisted:
earlmck wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:30 pm
Tycer wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:27 pm
earlmck wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:19 pm My first guess that Lil' Gun or H110 would be among the the top powder was wrong -- they are down there with the "also rans".
Howdy Earl, that surprises me too.
Will you run 7.5 grains of LG under the 3118 and the 311316 for me? I’m curious as to what QL says about velocity. 6” and 22”

QL doesn't have those particular bullet numbers but does use the 311359 which is a gas check 115 grain bullet. For a 32/20 it shows 7.5 grains Lil' Gun getting 1050 fps from a 22" bbl and 725 from the 6", at 6.4k psi. For the 327 Federal you'd jump to 9k psi, 1120 fps from 22" and 800 from the 6".

That's awful light loading -- if I wanted 1050 fps out of a 32-20 rifle I'd go with something like 3 grains of TiteGroup which would give a more normal pressure around 13k psi. QL thinks that wouldn't drop as much in the pistol, still giving 850 fps from a 6" bbl.
It’s a 23” barrel. I always think it’s shorter cause the gun is so small. Rem model 25. Got to run one string of 7.5s - 1354.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Tycer »

earlmck wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:30 pm
Tycer wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:27 pm
earlmck wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:19 pm My first guess that Lil' Gun or H110 would be among the the top powder was wrong -- they are down there with the "also rans".
Howdy Earl, that surprises me too.
Will you run 7.5 grains of LG under the 3118 and the 311316 for me? I’m curious as to what QL says about velocity. 6” and 22”

QL doesn't have those particular bullet numbers but does use the 311359 which is a gas check 115 grain bullet. For a 32/20 it shows 7.5 grains Lil' Gun getting 1050 fps from a 22" bbl and 725 from the 6", at 6.4k psi. For the 327 Federal you'd jump to 9k psi, 1120 fps from 22" and 800 from the 6".

That's awful light loading -- if I wanted 1050 fps out of a 32-20 rifle I'd go with something like 3 grains of TiteGroup which would give a more normal pressure around 13k psi. QL thinks that wouldn't drop as much in the pistol, still giving 850 fps from a 6" bbl.
1078 out of the 6.5” and 1354 from the 23”
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by crs »

Why all the interest in the 32-20 pistol cartridge?

I somehow passed through my avid handgun collecting and shooting phase without ever seeing or shooting a 32-20. ????

I just settled on .357 mag and 44 mag revolvers and matching rifles, and 9mm for auto.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Tycer »

crs wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:55 pm Why all the interest in the 32-20 pistol cartridge?

I somehow passed through my avid handgun collecting and shooting phase without ever seeing or shooting a 32-20. ????

I just settled on .357 mag and 44 mag revolvers and matching rifles, and 9mm for auto.
I got a sweet deal from a friend on an old 92 in 32 wcf. Fell in love with the round. Cheap to reload. I’m a 35 cal guy in both rifles and sidearms but there’s something magical for me about the 32.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by Tycer »

Mike Armstrong wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:50 am
But be sure that you have the tight right belt or that .30 Blackhawk will pull your pants off....
Yes sir! The Buckeye has a steel grip frame instead of the aluminum! It balances well though. I like the extra weight in the grip.
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Re: Blackhawk vs KFrame

Post by AJMD429 »

32 caliber handguns are kinda cool.

If you said "well, I want to shoot a heavier bullet, at a slightly bigger diameter, and am willing to settle for a bit less velocity......you'd have the 38 Special, and it can shoot well in most 357 Mag guns, so......make your choice.... :D "
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