.38-40 WCF

Mike Armstrong · Post by **Mike Armstrong** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:53 am

Anybody else a fan of the .38 WCF? I have two Win 1885s, a Colt 1910 Bisley, and a 1923 Colt New Service, and enjoy shooting them all. Even killed a couple of bucks with the single shots! (I've also had a couple of '92s and a Remington 14 1/2R but let them go to somebody who wanted them more than i could afford to pass on....).

Aside from the mystery of why Winchester named the round so inaccurately, it's been fairly popular over its long history, and hit the top of its production and use in handguns in the decade just before WWI, and lost popularity when the concept of levergun/revolver waned after WWI.

Its sometimes claimed advantages over the .44-40 seem to me to be minimal at best. Lessened recoil? Some, probably mainly because the smaller bore gives more weight to a .40 cal than a .43, especially in a revolver. But the increased muzzle blast somewhat nullifies that advantage in a sixgun, IMO.

The tapered .38-40 ctg. is a little easier and quicker to chamber in a revolver than the less-tapered .44-40. Not sure who noticed this or cared in the past, tho. Never seen it cited, even by Elmer Keith, who noticed these kinds of details. It may have fed a little more smoothly in lever action repeaters, but again I've never seen that cited as an advantage.

Flatter shooting? A little. Better SD? A little. But most shooters in the past didn't test guns like these for such things much, and these advantages of the ".38" over the ".44" don't jump right out at you.

Accuracy? Well there the ".38" seems to me to have a real advantage. Colt especially kept its .38-40 bores and chambers very uniform over the life of the cartridge, while there seems to be great variance in .44-40 bores and chambers and quite a bit in the other main man-killer, the .45. And forty caliber rifles were renowned for accuracy in the second half of the 19th century, so the .38-40 probably got some of that reputation, earned or not.

And .44-40s were available everywhere. .38-40s weren't. I got my nice Bisley from a Mexican rural cop who really liked it but just couldn't get ammo for it anywhere and wished he had a .44.... He COULD get ammo for the Colt Frontier Scout I traded him for it and thought that six .22 hollowpoints trumped NO .38-40s....

My guess is that overall the .38-40 was the choice of the contrarians in every crowd, who just HAVE to have something different from the rest. And it was/is good enough to keep appealing to that fraction of the shooting public for a VERY long time!

My story, and I'm stickin' to it!

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:37 pm

Interesting post. I'd like to hear more opinions on that cartridge and it's uses, hardly ever see them over here.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:32 pm

The 38wcf is my favorite of the Winchester "pistol cartridges". In my neck of the woods, it was WAY more popular and common than the 44. I currently have 7 rifles and carbines chambered as such. Three 92 src's, a 73 src, a 92 eastern carbine, a takedown 92 rifle, and an 1889 Marlin rifle.
I find the 38 way more consistent in regards to groove diameter across multiple firearms when compared to 44. I can shoot the same load in all my 38's, where I am required to do something different for all my 44's. This is mostly an issue for smokeless loadings, and is somewhat mitigated with black powder.
I think the biggest reason for the lack of variation is the fact that they made less of them by a considerable number. Tooling got much less use, and as such, wear was less of a factor. So, in theory, you were less likely to encounter barrels at the extremes of tolerance. The tooling costs much have been much more of an issue in the lines producing th 44s. The above is just my opinion, however. As a machinist, I can see it as a possible explanation.
For most of my shooting, I use the old Lyman 401043 180gr bullet over 8gr. Unique. This is a pleasant load to shoot and very accurate in my guns. The Winchester 92 and Marlin 94 will take considerably more pressure than this load, but why spoil the fun? I feel this load is fully capable of taking deer sized game at modest ranges.
I'm using this same basic load..... but in a 44wcf!

.....this season for deer.

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:14 pm

I have a T/C Contender pistol in 38-40; does that count?

GunnyMack · Post by **GunnyMack** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:39 pm

When I was a kid, 12 or so a friend of the family let me shoot his Lightning, as I remember it was pert near in perfect condition. After I shot it a few times he says if you want this rifle I'll take 500 for it. IF i knew then what i know now I would have found 500 bucks somewhere somehow. I still have one of the cases ( with a Black Talon seated) in my collection. Yes i still kick myself for not buying it!

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:26 pm

I wish I had saved the source, but I remember reading about the development of the 38 WCF in the Win 73's. The author claimed it was brought out because some law enforcement types wanted a man-stopper but something that shot a bit flatter than the 44 WCF. and less recoil in the revolvers I.E. the 180's.
I don't know how true this was but I can tell you at one time I had a nickle plated 92 in 38 WCF that came out of Huntsville Texas TDC. The owner claimed it was a picket gun at one time. Supposedly it stayed in the picket/guard tower and was plated because the towers weren't air conditioned. East Texas being quit humid the plating help prevent rust. I've never been able to verify but it did make sense.

The irony is if you look at the ballistics of the 38 WCF compared to the modern Law enforcement caliber the 40 S&W they are pretty much the same.
Nothings new just re-run I guess.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:47 pm

oops went full auto on me

yooper2 · Post by **yooper2** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:30 pm

I have 92 rifle with a 24" barrel in 38 WCF. I didn't buy it for the chambering but because it is in great shape although I have come to really enjoy the cartridge. I think anyone claiming a difference between it and the 44 WCF is splitting a pretty fine hair. 3 deer have fallen to mine with the RCBS 180gr cowboy bullet, spined one and the others ran maybe 60-70 yards with both lungs perforated. No complaints!

Eric

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:38 pm

Merle wrote: ↑Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:14 pm I have a T/C Contender pistol in 38-40; does that count?

I'd say so! About the best looking of the original "short BP" rifle cartridges.

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:57 pm

I looked it up. The .38-40 pistol round for 180 grains seems to fall pretty much in between the .40 S&W and the 10mm. With more than 500 foot pounds of energy, it should be enough for deer out to 50 yards. The rifle load has even more power and velocity. The rifle load has accounted for many deer, as Yooper2 can vouch for.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:07 pm

Mike,
That "Old Win" guy above me could not have said it better....he saved me from thinking...thanks Jay!...(but be careful on those guns he claims to have....he was over here one time with a big buffalo coat on and he was rattling going up the stairs....I got to check)

For real, I've noticed the same tolerance issues Jay has concerning the 38 and the 44......when I was 18 in 1972 I saw a set of RCBS 38-40 dies for sale for like $5 in a gun shop......well, you know....yes....well......now I needed a reason to use those dies and bought a Bisley Colt a few weeks later...nice gun for $400.....in my youth I had a chance to make a few dollars so I sold it....it was a 75% er so today someone has my old $3500 Colt.

Currently, in the 38-40 cartridge I have two 1873's, one is like new, the other maybe 80% but has been shot very little....4 single action Colts, one first gen and three 3rds of which one is a New Frontier...yes, it's a Colt...., Colt Lightning with a factory set trigger
that has logged around 3K rounds, a engraved '92 Win SRC, I know there more but I'm gettin' old and can't remember or don't want to remember much anymore. Can't tell, you stop giving a S after a while.

Old Win knows I don't give a S anymore so maybe some of my guns are up in his gunroom.

With the exception of the like new '73 they all get shot. The 1st gen Colt has a scarce 7.5 barrel along with a third gen that also has the scarce 7.5...the other two are 5.5. The first gen has absolutely perfect tolerances with .401 throats and a .400 groove diameter. The third gens also have the exact same measurements.

You might laugh at this....as a guy who has a couple of hundred moulds you know what all of my 38-40's eat?....the Lyman 180 gr. TC bullet designed for the 40 S&W and I crimp with the LFCD....just guessing.....25,000 rds over the years.....either 6 gr. of Bullseye, 8 of Unique or 6.5 of 231. Played with 17.5 of 2400 but just played....I have other more powerful guns. The Lyman bullet glides up those feed rails like ......I don't know, whatever smooth feeding is....

I could go on for hours on the 38-40.....It's a tight run with the 32-20 as my all time favorite cartridge......

Are your 1885's originals? Low Walls? There's something about an 1885 that's nice.....last year I grabbed a half rd/oct low wall in 32-20 for $500 at an estate auction.....all the people were saying, "what's a 32-20?"

The '73....the only one I don't shoot

The 32-20 low wall with an MVA scope...my "funnest" play rifle.

Mike Armstrong · Post by **Mike Armstrong** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:08 pm

My 1885s are both original. One's a low wall I bought some years ago when on vacation in Maine. It had done apple orchard guard duty for a farmer and his son for many years. Bore looked like a sewer pipe, the rest was smooth brown patina with all markings sharp and clean. 28" #1 weight barrel. Made in 1889. I had a gunsmith in Oregon (retired now) reline the bore to new and it's my favorite shooter now that my cataracts are "gone, baby gone"!

The other is a high wall with "paneled receiver" made in 1896. I found it in the roof of a collapsed line shack in the Ruby Mtns. in Nevada on BLM land when rockhounding with my father in 1952 (he was actually prospecting for uranium). It was "preserved" with a blob of heavy grease that had hardened into a plastic-like mass. I brought it home, assuming it was a wreck and took it to a gunsmith in Petaluma, CA (This was when Petaluma was still the "Egg Capital of the World" and you could lose your straight nose and some teeth by calling it "Chickaluma"....).

He was the usual crabby WWII vet ex-machinist with a very sore back, but he knew a budding gunnut when he saw one, so he showed me how to very slowly wash away all that axle grease, take the rifle apart, and lube it correctly. It was in excellent shape except for the last 1/8 inch of the barrel which had been sticking out of the burlap sack it was stored in (that octagon shape was how I noticed it). He faced off that pitting and re-crowned the barrel and didn't charge me a dime. Needless to say, I spent much of my young life in that shop (partly because he also raised and sold fighting chickens and that and the guns drew a very "colorful" crowd).

It is a special order rifle that was made on a high wall receiver but with a low wall barrel and the small receiver threads of a low wall. The octagon barrel is #1 weight like most low walls, but is 26" long like the smaller bore low walls (like my .22 WCF), not the normal 28". Plain sporter stock w/crescent buttplate, no rear sight dovetail cut but a Lyman tang peep mounted when I got it. Perfect bore once I got the gunk out of it. Flat mainspring action--must have been one of the last before they went to the coil spring action. I call it a "Hi-Wall Lightweight" because of it's great balance. Had it since I found it.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:34 pm

Great story! Reminds me of my old gunsmith buddy. Why he took the time to teach me so much I will never know.

Haha I should have known one of those was from Maine! The 38wcf was VERY popular here. Them old hicks was smart!
It was the same with the 38-55. Scarce everywhere but here.

Mike Armstrong · Post by **Mike Armstrong** » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:14 am

Sixgun, that low wall is droolworthy! Obviously a special order item. 1885s have been my favorite rifle since I read a book called "Single Shot Rifles" in the Santa Rosa public library when I was seven or so. Had to sneak upstairs and hide in the adult stacks to read it and "American Rifleman" because I was too young for adult books (a real Juvenile Delinquent for sure!). After a while the librarians gave in and just gave me an Adult card!

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:29 am

I am envious of the many fine 38/40's some of you levergunners have. I had thought I was pretty well-fixed but now I'm not so sure.

When I was 9 years old my grandmother noticed I never went anywhere without my trusty 22, so she decided I would have been the apple of my grandfathers eye (he'd died before I was born) and she passed on to me his Colt revolver (just the 5 1/2" version) along with a Queen Ann Cherries box full of old ammo. By the time I'd shot up the ammo I was suffering considerable hearing loss (who knew loud noises were bad for the ears back there in the early 50's?). Some 30 years later I was wandering amongst the tables at a local gun show and there was a nice model 92 with Lyman receiver sight. This one has got most of my attention over the years, first with the same Lee bullet that Sixgun uses and for the past few years with the Accurate 200B that I have previously posted about. Also have acquired a '73 (puny bore and excess headspace but it goes "bang"). And traded a purty 32/20 for a nice condition Remington 14 1/2 that is a fun shooter.

And that was interesting info on the reason behind the development -- thanks NKJ. Yep, that 38/40 was a fine development however it came about.

Oh yeah, should put in some pics of 38/40 stuff... Bullets

3840_9772.jpg

Win 92

win38409652.jpg

Win 73

m739562.jpg

Rem 14 1/2

Rem14nhalf.jpg

Rem38-40.jpg

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:38 pm

Nice stuff guys!
These are my 38's except one. There is a standard 92 SRC over to my dad's. Never had a 38 in a handgun. I surely wouldn't mind one if someone wants to donate.

As I said, I mostly use the old black powder Lyman 401043 bullet. Sit it on a few grains of Unique.

Mike Armstrong · Post by **Mike Armstrong** » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:55 pm

earlmck, I envy you that 14 1/2, and wish I hadn't sold my 14 1/2R (carbine version w/half magazine). But a house payment had to be made.

I also damaged my hearing shooting handguns in the 1950s and '60s. Who knew about hearing protection? We just figured that guns would hurt at BOTH ends.

The first .38-40 handgun I had was worn 4 1/2" (not a common factory length) Colt New Service made in 1903. Very accurate if you could stand the racket. But after a while you couldn't even hear it any more....

Also shot .32-20 revolvers and a post-WWI Luger 7.65 with the "treaty-length barrel." I think it was 100mm. Belonged to a Basque sheepherder and shearer we knew. OWWWWW! Nice fireworks, tho.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:47 pm

Wow! You had a 14 and 1/2 carbine? I've never seen one.....had a rifle version in 38-40 and was an extremely fine shooter but for some strange reason the prices doubled overnight some years back and I sold it for 1200.

Another WOW....a number 1 barrel on a high wall! Price sure was right....

I agree Mike on the single shots, especially the 1885's.....there's one big problem with them....not a whole lot were made and the ones that did survive bring crazy prices....I've always punched a clock for a living and while I have many connections, 1885's seldom show up......it's RARE that I pay for a gun what's it's worth, always getting them at small town auctions or estate sales so that means if you want nice single shots you have to rely on the internet or high priced dealers........and these places I have no use for.

I'm getting excited with all of this talk on the old guns...real ones in my book...they can keep that foreign junk.....

This low wall is a special order .22 L.R. With a #1 28" full octagon with set trigger and original Stevens scope...it's all from 1909....sadly, I sold it a few months ago to our own David. Selling a gun from time to time helps with play money.

First gen from 1902.....7 and 1/2" ...this gun hits beer cans at 100 meters. Not a round has been out of the box of ammo....I bought the box factory sealed about 35 years ago and cut the seal!

More Colts in 38-40....in the back is the above 1st gen then a 5.5 third gen, 7.5 third gen and the one in the front is a New Frontier 5.5. I don't shoot these guns much like I used to.---6

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:40 am

The guns you pull out Six, never cease to amaze me.

The 38-40 is a caliber that I have never had the chance to shoot but have always wanted to get. For one reason or another I just haven't ever got anything in that caliber. I still dream to have a Marlin 1888 in 38-40.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:12 pm

Rube Burrows wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:40 am The guns you pull out Six, never cease to amaze me.

The 38-40 is a caliber that I have never had the chance to shoot but have always wanted to get. For one reason or another I just haven't ever got anything in that caliber. I still dream to have a Marlin 1888 in 38-40.

Rube.....thank you! Whether you know it or not I read most everything you write and you have a special quality.....that quality is you NOTICE. When you notice, that means you have a desire.....Keep in mind that NOTHING with the exception of Teddy's Roosevelts 1895 and a few like new engraved guns are out of reach of the average guy......I was nothing more than a forklift driver for over 40 years but I had one thing not many people have......as a young man starting around 18 I had a drive with the energy of the universe pushing me.

I ate, breathed and slept with visions of Winchesters & Colts 24/7. I bought every book and read and reread them...I paid attention to the desireablilty and prices of the old guns.....every weekend I went to the shows and drove to every auction that had guns listed. By my early twenties I knew more than most old heads in the game....As I never made much money and that money went exclusively to my family and raising two kids and putting them through a Catholic education I had to constantly buy and sell the antique guns...and kept that money separate........I had to learn to work on them.......I drove THREE vehicles in my adult life.....I cut 4 acres of grass with the same John Deere for over 30 years.......yes, I prioritized my guns and close to 50 years later here I am, laughing and farting away sometimes leaving a "little extra" in my shorts.

By now I hope you have figured out I just don't give a poop what others think.....I know what's out there and I also know most people will step on you like they would an ant. Nothing like your family and your animals....everything else will stab you in the back.

Don't think it's too late as when I started the old timers told me all the good stuff was gone......NO!....collections are constantly being broken up....the trick is to stay away from the dealers...eliminate the middle man and go after the stuff yourself...yes, it's another job. The BIGGEST trick is near free.....BOOKS....they are relatively cheap.....

Don't get other people involved...do it yourself...you need NO ONE.....the knowledge is yours and yours alone.....no one is going to call you and tell you about some $5,000 Winchester that someone is selling for $200.....YOU have to find it. After 20 years of learning and learning you will get a funnel like mine......this is a giant funnel in the sky that drops the nicest guns right to your doorstep....as time goes on the funnel will get bigger, better and well greased...... NEVER let anyone else be on the receiving end....you earned them and they are yours.

NEVER look for a specific gun...you will never find it......(unless you have unlimited money).....keep buying and upgrading ....be a one man gunshop, keep records and receipts and most of all stay legal as many people will get envious of your accumulation and will rat you out if you skirt the law as most people love to see other people lose their butt.

Now you know why no one here likes me with the exception of a few people. They are mad I don't "cut em in on the action" and there's nothing they can do. Your different.....I picked that out some time back.....BOOKS Rube...BOOKS!

-----6

PS....stop on in an b.s over at the Gun Room...you'd fit right in with us misfits....it's not an exclusive post just for us..everyone is invited but for some strange reason those who do post , including visitors, know they are accepted and the ones who don't...aren't.

mnmarlin · Post by **mnmarlin** » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:24 pm

Never shot one, always wanted to after I read En Woodcock's book "Fifty Years a Hunter and Trapper". I'm probably not quoting exactly, but in it he says if you want all the power and recoil to go with it, go ahead and get a .30-30, but the .38-40 was all he needed.

Would love to have an old Marlin chambered for it someday.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:39 pm

mnmarlin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:24 pm Never shot one, always wanted to after I read En Woodcock's book "Fifty Years a Hunter and Trapper". I'm probably not quoting exactly, but in it he says if you want all the power and recoil to go with it, go ahead and get a .30-30, but the .38-40 was all he needed.

Would love to have an old Marlin chambered for it someday.

You should make it a goal to find a good 38. It is a wonderful thing. I've always been more of a Winchester guy. I have Martin's, but prefer Winchester. The ONE exception is my 1889 in 38-40.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:59 pm

Back in the last century I had the two Ruger “Buckeye Special” convertibles -- .34-40 WCF/10 mm and .32-20 WCF/32 H&R magnum. Probably should have kept them.

The little .32’s were pleasant to shoot. The .38-40 was potent when loaded up! Accurate and hard hitting revolver. Always wanted a .38-40 WCF rifle, but those that I came across for sale had the Big and Common Downside-- the condition was not equal to the asking price.

In my opinion, the .38-40 is one of those underrated and underappreciated cartridges.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:24 pm

Hey Ray...not to bust your testicles but Old Savage has a Buckeye 32-20 and I have the 38-40 Buckeye......yea...mine is deadly accurate,,,better than the Colts and my Colts are deadly accurate......as you know, a bit of a margins of error with the Ruger, both in steel and in bucks. Believe I have over 2500 rds.in mine...

Yea...I tried some heavy loads in the 38-40 Ruger with slow burning powder...that baby really flashes. The 10 MM cylinder outshoots the 38-40 probably due to being more efficient in case size........loves the 200 gr. cast.---6

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:44 am

Look up the velocities and bullet weights. The .38-40 is more powerful than the .40 S&W, but it was considered a moderate cartridge at one time. The .40 was considered too powerful for FBI agents. Sort of makes you wonder about how people perceive recoil these days.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:25 pm

Sixgun wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:12 pm
Rube Burrows wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:40 am The guns you pull out Six, never cease to amaze me.

The 38-40 is a caliber that I have never had the chance to shoot but have always wanted to get. For one reason or another I just haven't ever got anything in that caliber. I still dream to have a Marlin 1888 in 38-40.
Rube.....thank you! Whether you know it or not I read most everything you write and you have a special quality.....that quality is you NOTICE. When you notice, that means you have a desire.....Keep in mind that NOTHING with the exception of Teddy's Roosevelts 1895 and a few like new engraved guns are out of reach of the average guy......I was nothing more than a forklift driver for over 40 years but I had one thing not many people have......as a young man starting around 18 I had a drive with the energy of the universe pushing me.

I ate, breathed and slept with visions of Winchesters & Colts 24/7. I bought every book and read and reread them...I paid attention to the desireablilty and prices of the old guns.....every weekend I went to the shows and drove to every auction that had guns listed. By my early twenties I knew more than most old heads in the game....As I never made much money and that money went exclusively to my family and raising two kids and putting them through a Catholic education I had to constantly buy and sell the antique guns...and kept that money separate........I had to learn to work on them.......I drove THREE vehicles in my adult life.....I cut 4 acres of grass with the same John Deere for over 30 years.......yes, I prioritized my guns and close to 50 years later here I am, laughing and farting away sometimes leaving a "little extra" in my shorts.

By now I hope you have figured out I just don't give a poop what others think.....I know what's out there and I also know most people will step on you like they would an ant. Nothing like your family and your animals....everything else will stab you in the back.

Don't think it's too late as when I started the old timers told me all the good stuff was gone......NO!....collections are constantly being broken up....the trick is to stay away from the dealers...eliminate the middle man and go after the stuff yourself...yes, it's another job. The BIGGEST trick is near free.....BOOKS....they are relatively cheap.....

Don't get other people involved...do it yourself...you need NO ONE.....the knowledge is yours and yours alone.....no one is going to call you and tell you about some $5,000 Winchester that someone is selling for $200.....YOU have to find it. After 20 years of learning and learning you will get a funnel like mine......this is a giant funnel in the sky that drops the nicest guns right to your doorstep....as time goes on the funnel will get bigger, better and well greased...... NEVER let anyone else be on the receiving end....you earned them and they are yours.

NEVER look for a specific gun...you will never find it......(unless you have unlimited money).....keep buying and upgrading ....be a one man gunshop, keep records and receipts and most of all stay legal as many people will get envious of your accumulation and will rat you out if you skirt the law as most people love to see other people lose their butt.

Now you know why no one here likes me with the exception of a few people. They are mad I don't "cut em in on the action" and there's nothing they can do. Your different.....I picked that out some time back.....BOOKS Rube...BOOKS! -----6

PS....stop on in an b.s over at the Gun Room...you'd fit right in with us misfits....it's not an exclusive post just for us..everyone is invited but for some strange reason those who do post , including visitors, know they are accepted and the ones who don't...aren't.

Thank you for the kind words and also the advise. I am always looking around your photos to see the neat things in the background. Sometimes more than the subject of the photo posted. Your posts are always interesting to read and full of good info and tid bits. I love learning and read many books on guns and just about anything else. I am always trying out something new weather it be fully immersing myself in 19th century photography methods and learning how to make true ambrotypes and tintypes or picking up leather work trying to stay mostly period correct with my work. I very much love the older things in life. I'm one of those born in the wrong century types I suppose.

yooper2 · Post by **yooper2** » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:30 pm

Sixgun wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:47 pm
More Colts in 38-40....in the back is the above 1st gen then a 5.5 third gen, 7.5 third gen and the one in the front is a New Frontier 5.5. I don't shoot these guns much like I used to.---6

Jack,
Is that New Frontier a factory 38-40 or something you had put together? Never heard of one before. Either way, super cool!

Eric

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:34 pm

Eric,
YOU DA MAN and you win first prize in the knowledge contest!

It's not everyday that someone picks that out .........Eric is the kind of guy who spots something unusual and either buys it or realizes it's a fraud.....yes.....it's a factory fraud.

The gun was originally a 44 Spl.....at one time I could have had it done at the factory with the correct markings but I snoozed....instead I had them make me up a pair of Colts with the serial number SIXGUN 1 and SIXGUN 2....seems I was the first person since 1873 to think of that...they wouldn't give me plain Sixgun...long story.

Anyway, I was able to get a 38-40 cylinder and barrel from the factory at a time when that could not be done. So I paid a 'smith to change the barrel and cylinder and take the front sight off of the 44 Spl barrel and silver solder it on the 38-40 barrel. Had it tuned and everything is perfect on this "New Frontier" fraud........I was a a get together sometime back and Doc O'Meara, the gun writer was there and he got pretty excited so he had one done too. At that get together he wanted my 1899 Savage in 38-55 so bad I thought he was gonna steal it from me.

I took that "New Frontier" with me on an elk hunt in Colorado and for the first time in playing with dozens of single action Colts the pawl spring broke after I shot at a raven. Yea....S happens.

It's a good thing "Old Win" wasn't there with his big buffalo coat.

Here's the Ruger 38-40 with the 38-40 New Frontier......blow up the pic and you will see "Colt Single Action Army" on the roll mark.

Sixgun 1 & 2.....#1 is a 38-40 and #2 is a 45......they both remain unfired

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:19 pm

Willing here to fire them.

Will need 38-40 ammo.

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:00 pm

Very cool. I have some .45 Colt loaded to about 800 fps and a 250 grain lead bullet. Send that .45 my way and I can send it back after 100 rounds and a good cleaning. Those 800 fps loads are not too bad even in my little single shot derringer. I have some Ruger and T/C only loads, but they are never allowed anywhere close to a Colt. No Way! I might be a little crazy, but I have no desire to blow up a Colt!!! 260 grain JHP with 23.5 grains of H110/WW296 is pretty hot. I am thinking that would cause a Colt to pur pieces into anything and anyone around. Heck, I limit those to 20 rounds per range session, and maximum of 2 range sessions per 6 months in my Blackhawk. They sure do knock a 150 pound wild hog rolling. BOOM!!! Flop. Pork. I do play with the Blackhawk with reduced loads for fun. It is plenty accurate. It also has the other cylinder for .45 ACP. That is fun and accurate, too. I never reloaded it to anything +P since I can use the OH-WOW! loads in .45 Colt brass in the other cylinder.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:53 pm

When we are young to middle aged we load em up......then we go to where they are supposed to be.......I prefer most all handgun ammo to be between 800-1100 with the majority around 850-9....that's enough. 7.5 of 231 in standard bullet weight gets put in most of my larger cased handgun rds.

yooper2 · Post by **yooper2** » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:38 am

Sixgun wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:34 pm Eric,
YOU DA MAN and you win first prize in the knowledge contest!

It's not everyday that someone picks that out .........Eric is the kind of guy who spots something unusual and either buys it or realizes it's a fraud.....yes.....it's a factory fraud.

Here's the Ruger 38-40 with the 38-40 New Frontier......blow up the pic and you will see "Colt Single Action Army" on the roll mark.

Sixgun 1 & 2.....#1 is a 38-40 and #2 is a 45......they both remain unfired

What's the prize?

Very cool gun and it totally passes as factory which is why I had to ask. That roll mark is the only tell. All the cool stuff is hiding in Pennsylvania! I had no idea that Colt would do custom serial numbers either. Mind if I ask why they were unwilling to do "SIXGUN"? Require a numerical character or?

Eric

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:20 am

I am with Six on handgun velocity.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:37 am

Well Eric.....they never told me but here's my theory or hypothesis if you may......

Two people, non factory workers, were involved in getting me these guns...both great guys, but capitalists to the 100th degree with the best of connections.....it's a pretty good guess that the one guy reserved that serial number for himself. I have a bad character trait with blabbing my mouth without thinking and while we were sitting around bs ing I said, "look here guys, no one since 1873 thought of using the serial number "sixgun" on a single action Colt...now wouldn't that make a millionaire want to pay $100G's for such a gun, all gold inlaid and 100% engraved?...it would be a 500% profit."

I've made some people lots of money with my ideas and they knew it....that's why after I told them this I had the guns delivered in a couple of weeks where special serial numbers usually take a year or more to get.

I could have had a 32-20 with sixgun 3 serial number but these things ain't cheap so I declined ..plus I would have shot that one...

But it's all OK as I got them back....another Colt showed up made in 1906 chambered in 44 Russian of which only 153 were made and this one was in a solid 90% condition.....they said, "what's a 44 Russian?" I told them probably some goofy caliber that no one wanted so after getting the gun I had it lettered and it was purchased by John W Hession, the famous Marine Corp target shooter.

I'm just a former peon factory worker but these guns just mysteriously find their way to me somehow from the "giant funnel in the sky".

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:18 pm

Tell you man, I can't get over that Russian. My buddy had one in a 7.5" that was very minty also. It's the only one I'd ever seen till yours. What is the chances? They made so few.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:04 pm

OldWin wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:18 pm Tell you man, I can't get over that Russian. My buddy had one in a 7.5" that was very minty also. It's the only one I'd ever seen till yours. What is the chances? They made so few.

Jay.....do you remember the exact roll marking? Colts in 44 Spl were also marked 44 Russian.....as in "44 Spl. & Russian". These are much more common.....6...o........da .....bro.....

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:19 pm

That very well may be what it was. It has been 20 years since I saw it. It was really nice though.
Makes more sense. The Russians are super rare.

Fisher-Price · Post by **Fisher-Price** » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:30 pm

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1892 made in 1898, 1892 not shown SRC Made in 1892 up at house.
3rd/4th Gen whatever it’s called SAA.
Was my Dad’s 73 made in 1887 on top and the bottom one I found this week 1891 mfg
Bottom picture the 1891 model 73

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:12 pm

Nice guns FP....

....it's a great disease we have.....there's just something special about a '73 Winchester and a single action Colt......----006

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:17 am

Nice stuff FP! Looks like a beautiful gun room too.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:48 am

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Off topic....what is the painting...?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:49 am

Off-topic, but what is the painting in that photo...?

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Fisher-Price · Post by **Fisher-Price** » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:06 am

I’ll look for name of artist When I get home something my Dad found at a Cabelas I’m sure. I am very fortunate to have this tinkering room in the barn. Absolutely no lies get told in that circle of rocking chairs

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Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:27 am

Wow! Super FP!.......I thought I was a little neurotic on order and cleanliness.....I used to be but being a pig feels better. I love the wood and decor.......I can see all your buds sitting around slamming down beers and shots of JD....and your right, not a lie being told.

..... maybe a little bravado.....

I have too much jammed into a little about 14 x 14 room.....this is after a vacuum....

Fisher-Price · Post by **Fisher-Price** » Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:42 am

Thanks for the compliments guys, sorry about hijacking a little. My barn tends to be the hangout and cooking place. Looks like a print by Valerie Yost called The Simple Life. A friend called this a memory room. There is a story behind almost everything in it.

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OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:09 pm

Just awesome FP! I'd never leave that room.

Memory room......that's cool.
People who have been in mine call it The Museum. It doesn't hold a candle to yours, though.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:39 pm

Yea Jay.....your right......FP has LOTS of room........I used to feel that way but little by little junk keeps coming in and although I can expand as I do have the whole basement, I don't.......it'd be a horror story just taking down one wall..wires...shelves...junk..

Yours looks spacious but it is getting crowded after you were here with that big buffalo,coat.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:44 pm

Sixgun wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:39 pm Yea Jay.....your right......FP has LOTS of room........I used to feel that way but little by little junk keeps coming in and although I can expand as I do have the whole basement, I don't.......it'd be a horror story just taking down one wall..wires...shelves...junk..

Yours looks spacious but it is getting crowded after you were here with that big buffalo,coat.

Ha! That's why I only took the Colts. They take up less room!