POLITICS - Spitting mad at my PD (RKBA)

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Old Ironsights
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POLITICS - Spitting mad at my PD (RKBA)

Post by Old Ironsights »

5/19/2008 11:00:00 AM
Police Start Gun-Exchange Program

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?Sec ... M=73621.04

From Staff Reports

MICHIGAN CITY - The Michigan City Police Department has instituted a "Get More Buck for Your Bang" gun-exchange program to reduce the number of weapons available on the streets.

"We are urging residents to turn in handguns and long guns to the Michigan City Police Department in exchange for a gift," said Sgt. Chris Yagelski, department spokesman.

The effort is in conjunction with the unveiling of a display that features handguns seized by the police department over the years. The ceremony is at 10 a.m. Friday, May 23, in the police department front lobby.

With donations from Konrady Plastics, Portage, and Tonn & Blank Inc., Michigan City, the display case was constructed of 1 1/2-inch bullet-proof glass encased in an oak enclosure that provides a safe and secure manner to display the handguns.

The display case features more than 300 handguns taken off the street of Michigan City in conjunction with citizen complaints and criminal investigations.

As for the gifts people receive by turning in guns, people can receive a choice of a new DVD player, Wal-Mart gift card or gas card, thanks to General Insurance, Wal-Mart and NIPSCO.

------------------------------------------------------------

Great. So now the PD is offering a financial incentive for criminals to steal guns. Even better, once those guns are turned in (no questions asked - 5th Amendment don't you know...) they are out of the evidence stream... and the rightful owner CAN NEVER GET THEM BACK.

Sounds like a good gig - steal a gun, use it in a homicide, turn it in to get rid of the evidence and get a tank full of gas for the next getaway! Brilliant!

What wonderful Police Work - paying the most dangerous criminals to get away with it. :evil:
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Post by Grizz »

I'd say you got those dots connected exactly right.

Stunning stupidity, and they can't understand why we don't trust them.... much.
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Re: POLITICS - Spitting mad at my PD (RKBA)

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Old Ironsights wrote: Great. So now the PD is offering a financial incentive for criminals to steal guns. Even better, once those guns are turned in (no questions asked - 5th Amendment don't you know...) they are out of the evidence stream... and the rightful owner CAN NEVER GET THEM BACK.
Pretty much the goal of all "anti's" - strip us of our guns without any recourse to get them back. Do it "for the children" and score bonus points with the sheep... :evil:
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Post by clubkey »

**NO SHRUG**

OI,

Do you ever have anything good to say about any PD? You're sounding an awful lot like Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson in only posting anything you feel is derogatory towards Law Enforcement. Anybody with even the slightest amount of intelligence knows that programs such as these would have been initiated much further up the food chain than at a local PD level. Truthfully now, what is your real purpose in your constant search to destroy all confidence in any PD?
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Post by Old Ironsights »

clubkey wrote:OI,

Do you ever have anything good to say about any PD?
Yes. By in large my Sheriff's Department is well run despite being grossly understaffed for the territory they cover... and they haven't had to fire anyone for corruption/malfeasance for as long as I can remember.

They have a good Posse too.
You're sounding an awful lot like Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson in only posting anything you feel is derogatory towards Law Enforcement. Anybody with even the slightest amount of intelligence knows that programs such as these would have been initiated much further up the food chain than at a local PD level. Truthfully now, what is your real purpose in your constant search to destroy all confidence in any PD?
Wow. A Racist insult followed by an untruth followed by a personal insult. A threefer! Haven't seen one of those recently.

Acually this was the sole effort of the local PD/Chief. There is no "further up the food chain" to get involved over here in Indiana. Who would it be? It's not being done anywhere else nearby and unlike Emperor Daley, the Mayor certainly doesn't have the power or cajones to try somthing like this. But you can bet that if he had he'd be all over taking credit for it.

If you care to actually READ the things I say about individual bad officers &/or policy decisions/institutional behavior you will realize that I am talking about just that - individuals, policies, and problematic institutional behavior NOT "The Police" as a whole. Think about it. Groups ("The Police") are not and cannot be corporately responsible for the actions of its members. That's Collectivisim at its worst. What groups can be and SHOULD be held corporately responsible for it the repudiation of evil done by its individuals. Without Repudiation then you have, at the very least, tacit acceptance of those actions. There are very good reasons to throw some people under the bus.

I dunno. Maybe you just missed the posts I made about the young cop who got railroaded in Iowa. He gets screwed while guys who hand out beatings are shuffled around the Chicago system. Hell, I've got no reason to be cynical.

I've looked in the fancy plastic coffin the LOCAL PD has put its confiscated guns in. There are a couple of genuine museum-quality revolvers in there... which the PD will NOT investigate provenance or donate to the local and fairly extensive County Gun Museum. How do I know this? Because I ASKED. I know several people at the PD, including the Sgt Yagelski mentioned in the article, and I ASKED HIM... I don't care much about the stupid junk guns or even a Glock or two... but to deny the value of historical pieces and just chuck them into a display to get buggered up is absurd - as is paying people to hand over stolen property/evidence without recourse.

Tell me why this policy isn't foolish or why I shouldn't call attention to it.
Last edited by Old Ironsights on Tue May 20, 2008 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by FWiedner »

clubkey wrote:**NO SHRUG**

OI,

Do you ever have anything good to say about any PD? You're sounding an awful lot like Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson in only posting anything you feel is derogatory towards Law Enforcement. Anybody with even the slightest amount of intelligence knows that programs such as these would have been initiated much further up the food chain than at a local PD level. Truthfully now, what is your real purpose in your constant search to destroy all confidence in any PD?
Just a guess... Truth?

:?
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Post by CowboyTutt »

Guys, I'm new here, but I have to wonder if there is more to this "gun buy-back program" than is being told. Do you mean to tell me that someone is going to reward these "gun owners" with DVD's whatever without verifying they are the legal owners of said firearm? There is nothing in O.S. article to verify this fact. Also, if an "antique" firearm was conficscated by this fact, why shouldn't they keep it for at least a little bit? It can always be turned over to a museum later. Whats the difference between one show-case to another in the short-term. O.I., not trying to say you are wrong here, only that I would like more information first. Were all so tired of having our gun rights taken away from us in increments, or by any legal means possible, that its not surprising that we see conspiracies where there aren't any. Before everyone gets upset, and jumps on the bandwagon here, maybe we could verify our facts first.

Just a humble suggestion.

-Tutt
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Post by Old Ironsights »

CowboyTutt wrote:Guys, I'm new here, but I have to wonder if there is more to this "gun buy-back program" than is being told. Do you mean to tell me that someone is going to reward these "gun owners" with DVD's whatever without verifying they are the legal owners of said firearm?
Yep. Tell me how they could verify it. We don't have a gun registry... yet.
There is nothing in O.S. article to verify this fact.
Doesn't need to be. If the ask, then they are setting up a 5th amendment issue (U.S. v. Haynes (1968)), and are proving that their intent is to disarm law abiding citizens. Look up every other "gun buyback" program in the country. They were all miserable failures because of this simple fact.
Also, if an "antique" firearm was conficscated by this fact, why shouldn't they keep it for at least a little bit? It can always be turned over to a museum later.
Nope. I asked that question SPECIFICALLY when I was introduced to this travesty.
Whats the difference between one show-case to another in the short-term. O.I., not trying to say you are wrong here, only that I would like more information first.
I live here. I know the people involved. I asked. I tried to get them to rescue the antiques. They refused. They refused to even discuss the issue. They are bound and determined to "get guns off the streets" - no matter how they were obtained.
Were all so tired of having our gun rights taken away from us in increments, or by any legal means possible, that its not surprising that we see conspiracies where there aren't any. Before everyone gets upset, and jumps on the bandwagon here, maybe we could verify our facts first.
Sorry. I verified these before the article hit the paper. I posted the article so people would know I wasn't seeing black helicopters.
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Post by horsesoldier03 »

Is private party gun sales still legal in MICHIGAN?

Maybe you should take out an add and fleece the community of all their unwanted LEVERS! :D
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Post by Blaine »

CowboyTutt wrote:Guys, I'm new here, but I have to wonder if there is more to this "gun buy-back program" than is being told. Do you mean to tell me that someone is going to reward these "gun owners" with DVD's whatever without verifying they are the legal owners of said firearm? There is nothing in O.S. article to verify this fact. Also, if an "antique" firearm was conficscated by this fact, why shouldn't they keep it for at least a little bit? It can always be turned over to a museum later. Whats the difference between one show-case to another in the short-term. O.I., not trying to say you are wrong here, only that I would like more information first. Were all so tired of having our gun rights taken away from us in increments, or by any legal means possible, that its not surprising that we see conspiracies where there aren't any. Before everyone gets upset, and jumps on the bandwagon here, maybe we could verify our facts first.

Just a humble suggestion.

-Tutt
These Don't Ask, Don't Tell buy backs have been going on all over the country for as long as I can remember....they are just as they seem: Worthless and the bad guys laugh at them.
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Post by Noah Zark »

About 18 years ago a city nearby to where I lived advertised a gun buyback on a Saturday. I went and stayed in the parking lot, "sharking" several nice guns -- buying them before the owner/sellers ever got near the facility. Way better results than going to a gun show. And in that state at that time, it was 100% legal to do so.
That said, the majority of the guns that folks were selling that day were rusted junk, or looked to be "zip" guns.

I did my part to get guns off the street and into a private collection where they would be well cared for.

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Post by sore shoulder »

A gunsmith friend of mine took all his junk guns down to the first gun buyback in San Francisco. They were paying cash. He nade a fortune for junk that could never have been made to fire a bullet and laughed all the way to the bank. After that, they stopped offering money for these programs.
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Post by AmBraCol »

horsesoldier03 wrote:Is private party gun sales still legal in MICHIGAN?
Michigan City isn't the capital of Michigan, it's a town in Indiana. :D
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Post by donw »

a number of years ago, san diego had a gun buy back program...from what i recall, they took them and dumped them at sea (the ones that were not of any particular value or use. the better ones, it was rumored, ended up in the police arsenal)

i believe 'buy back' programs are o.k. but very limited in success in the goal intended. they're more symbolic than anything else.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

http://davekopel.org/NRO/2000/Madness-o ... ybacks.htm
(a) buyback doen't even provide much in the way of disarmament: a study of a gun buybacks in Seattle reported that sixty-six percent of sellers had another gun that they did not surrender. Indeed, three percent of gun sellers said they would use the money to buy another gun, or would donate the proceeds to the National Rifle Association. [Charles M. Callahan, et al., Money for Guns: Evaluation of the Seattle Gun Buy-Back Program 84 PUB. HEALTH REP. 474 (1994).]...

Unsurprisingly, the social science evidence shows that buybacks have absolutely no positive effect in reducing gun crime, gun accidents, or any other form of gun misuse. The research is detailed in Under Fire: gun Buybacks, Exchanges and Amnesty Programs, a book published by the D.C.-based Police Foundation (a think tank for big-city police chiefs).
It's feel-good, anti gun ownership pap... and that's all.

Edit: 5th Amendment & why getting information on who turned in what is a non-starter:

5th Amendment, Self-Incrimination, & Gun Registration


by Clayton E. Cramer

A recurring question that we are asked, not only by gun control advocates, but even by a number of gun owners is, "What`s wrong with mandatory gun registration?" Usually by the time we finish telling them about the Supreme Court decision U.S. v. Haynes (1968), they are laughing -- and they understand our objection to registration.

In Haynes, a Miles Edward Haynes appealed his conviction for unlawful possession of an unregistered short-barreled shotgun. [1] His argument was ingenious: since he was a convicted felon at the time he was arrested on the shotgun charge, he could not legally possess a firearm.

Haynes further argued that for a convicted felon to register a gun, especially a short-barreled shotgun, was effectively an announcement to the government that he was breaking the law. If he did register it, as 26 U.S.C. sec.5841 required, he was incriminating himself; but if he did not register it, the government would punish him for possessing an unregistered firearm -- a violation of 26 U.S.C. sec.5851. Consequently, his Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination ("No person...shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself") was being violated -- he would be punished if he registered it, and punished if he did not register it. While the Court acknowledged that there were circumstances where a person might register such a weapon without having violated the prohibition on illegal possession or transfer, both the prosecution and the Court acknowledged such circumstances were "uncommon." [2] The Court concluded:

We hold that a proper claim of the constitutional privilege against self-incrimination provides a full defense to prosecutions either for failure to register a firearm under sec.5841 or for possession of an unregistered firearm under sec.5851. [3]
This 8-1 decision (with only Chief Justice Earl Warren dissenting) is, depending on your view of the Fifth Amendment, either a courageous application of the intent of the self-incrimination clause, or evidence that the Supreme Court had engaged in reductio ad absurdum of the Fifth Amendment. Under this ruling, a person illegally possessing a firearm, under either federal or state law, could not be punished for failing to register it. [4]

Consider a law that requires registration of firearms: a convicted felon cannot be convicted for failing to register a gun, because it is illegal under Federal law for a felon to possess a firearm; but a person who can legally own a gun, and fails to register it, can be punished. In short, the person at whom, one presumes, such a registration law is aimed, is the one who cannot be punished, and yet the person at whom such a registration law is not principally aimed (i.e., the law-abiding person) can be punished.

This is especially absurd for the statute under which Haynes was tried -- the National Firearms Act of 1934. This law was originally passed during the Depression, when heavily armed desperadoes roamed the nation, robbing banks and engaging in kidnap for ransom. The original intent of the National Firearms Act was to provide a method for locking up ex-cons that the government was unable to convict for breaking any other law. As Attorney General Homer Cummings described the purpose of the law, when testifying before Congress:

Now, you say that it is easy for criminals to get weapons. I know it, but I want to make it easy to convict them when they have the weapons. That is the point of it. I do not expect criminals to comply with this law; I do not expect the underworld to be going around giving their fingerprints and getting permits to carry these weapons, but I want them to be in a position, when I find such a person, to convict him because he has not complied.
During the same questioning, Cummings expressed his belief that, "I have no fear of the law-abiding citizen getting into trouble." Rep. Fred Vinson of Kentucky, while agreeing with Cummings` desire to have an additional tool for locking up gangsters, pointed out that many laws that sounded like good ideas when passed, were sometimes found "in the coolness and calmness of retrospect" to be somewhat different in their consequences. [5]

Unfortunately, Rep. Vinson`s concern about law-abiding people running afoul of registration laws, while criminals run free, turned out to be prophetic. The same year as the Haynes decision, the New York City Gun Control Law was challenged in the courts. The statute sought to bring shotguns and rifles under the same sort of licensing restrictions as handguns. Edward Grimm and a number of others filed suit against the City of New York, seeking to overturn the city ordinance. Grimm, et. al., raised a number of objections to the law during the trial, most of which were based on the Second Amendment. After the trial, but before the decision had been completed, the Haynes decision appeared. Grimm`s attorneys pointed out the implications for New York City`s gun registration requirement. The trial court held that the legislative intent of the law was:

that there existed an evil in the misuse of rifles and shotguns by criminals and persons not qualified to use these weapons and that the ease with which the weapons could be obtained was of concern... [6]
Yet on the subject of the Haynes decision:

In this court`s reading of the Haynes decision, it is inapposite to the statute under consideration here. The registration requirement in Haynes was "...directed principally at those persons who have obtained possession of a firearm without complying with the Act`s other requirements, and who therefore are immediately threatened by criminal prosecutions... They are unmistakably persons `inherently suspect of criminal activities.`"... The City of New York`s Gun Control Law is not aimed at persons inherently suspect of criminal activities. It is regulatory in nature. Accordingly, Haynes does not stand as authority for plaintiffs` position. [7]
In three pages, the court went from claiming that the registration law was intended to stop "an evil in the misuse of rifles and shotguns by criminals" to admitting that it was "not aimed at persons inherently suspect of criminal activities."

Nor is Grimm an exceptional case. A number of other judicial decisions have upheld gun registration laws, specifically because they did not apply to criminals, but only to law-abiding citizens. During the turbulent late 1960s, Toledo, Ohio, passed an ordinance that required handgun owners to obtain an identification card. [8] The plaintiffs attacked the law on a number of points, [9] including the issue of self-incrimination. Regarding the Fifth Amendment, the Court of Common Pleas asserted that application for a handgun owner`s identification card (effectively, registration of gun owners) did not make a person "inherently suspect of criminal activities." (This quotation suggests the judge writing this opinion was aware of the Haynes decision, although not cited.) The court pointed out that unless the plaintiffs had been prohibited persons within the Toledo ordinance, the Fifth Amendment would have provided them no protection. Only criminals were protected from a mandatory registration law -- not law-abiding people.

Later that same year, in the Ohio case State v. Schutzler (1969), Gale Leroy Schutzler attempted to quash an indictment for failure to register a submachine gun in accordance with O.R.C. sec.2923.04, which required registration of automatic weapons. [10] At the original trial, Schutzler argued that the registration requirement violated his Fifth Amendment rights, based on Haynes. On appeal, the Court of Common Pleas did not agree with any of Schutzler`s arguments, including his citation of the Fifth Amendment. Where the Haynes decision was based on the fact that Haynes was an ex-felon, and therefore his possession of a sawed-off shotgun was illegal, Schutzler was not breaking the law by possession; his only violation of the law was his failure to register the submachine gun and post a $5000 bond. [11] Had he been an ex-felon, the Haynes decision would have protected him. Because he was not a convicted criminal, he did not receive the benefit of the Fifth Amendment`s protection.

In State v. Hamlin (1986), a case involving an unregistered short-barreled shotgun, the Louisiana Supreme Court refused to apply the Haynes precedent, because the Louisiana statute specifically prohibited the government from using registration information to prosecute convicted felons in possession of a firearm. The Louisiana registration law had been "sanitized" in a manner similar to the 1968 revision to the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. sec.5801, which required that no information obtained from gun registration could be used against a person who could not legally possess a gun -- convicted felons could register their machine guns or short-barreled shotguns with complete confidence that they would not be prosecuted for illegal possession. [12]

If mandatory gun registration can`t be used to punish ex-felons in possession of a firearm, what purpose does such a law serve? If mandatory gun registration can only be used to punish people that can legally possess a gun, why bother? Because of the Haynes decision, if we want to punish ex-felons who are caught in possession of a gun, there are only two choices available: We must either skip registration, so that we can severely punish gun possession by those who aren`t allowed to own guns; or use the "sanitized" form of registration law -- where the criminal is guaranteed that gun registration can`t hurt him, while the rest of us can be punished for failure to comply.

It sounds paranoid to suggest that gun registration records might be used in the future to confiscate guns -- although the second director of Handgun Control, Inc. has stated explicitly that mandatory registration is one of the steps towards prohibition of handgun ownership [13] -- but when we examine how the courts have crippled gun registration laws so that felons are effectively exempt, and only law-abiding citizens need to fear such laws, what other explanation can there be for the continuing plea for mandatory gun registration?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clayton E. Cramer is a software engineer with a telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California. His first book, By The Dim And Flaring Lamps: The Civil War Diary of Samuel McIlvaine, was published in 1990. Rhonda L. Cramer is completing her B.A. in English.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Haynes v. U.S., 390 U.S. 85, 88, 88 S.Ct. 722, 725 (1968).
2. Haynes v. U.S., 390 U.S. 85, 96, 88 S.Ct. 722, 730 (1968).

3. Haynes v. U.S., 390 U.S. 85, 100, 88 S.Ct. 722, 732 (1968).

4. Haynes v. U.S., 390 U.S. 85, 98, 88 S.Ct. 722, 730 (1968).

5. National Firearms Act: Hearings Before the Committee on Ways and Means, 73rd Cong., 2nd sess., (Washington, DC, Government Printing Office: 1934), 21-22.

6. Grimm v. City of New York, 56 Misc.2d 525, 289 N.Y.S.2d 358, 361 (1968)

7. Grimm v. City of New York, 56 Misc.2d 525, 289 N.Y.S.2d 358, 364 (1968)

8. Photos v. City of Toledo, 19 Ohio Misc. 147, 250 N.E.2d 916 (Ct.Comm.Pleas 1969).

9. Photos v. City of Toledo, 19 Ohio Misc. 147, 250 N.E.2d 916, 923 (Ct.Comm.Pleas 1969).

10. State v. Schutzler, 249 N.E.2d 549 (Ohio Ct.Comm.Pleas 1969).

11. State v. Schutzler, 249 N.E.2d 549, 552 (Ohio Ct.Comm.Pleas 1969).

12. State v. Hamlin, 497 So.2d 1369, 1372 (La. 1986).

13. Richard Harris, "A Reporter At Large: Handguns", The New Yorker, July, 26, 1976, 57-58. A fascinating interview, Shields also describes the founder of Handgun Control, Inc., as a "retired CIA official" who was its first director -- without pay. For those people who regard the CIA as a secret government with nefarious motives, this will doubtless make them wonder about the origins of Handgun Control`s current policies in support of prohibition of those rifles which are most necessary to restrain domestic tyranny.
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Post by CowboyTutt »

O.I., thanks for answering all my questions. I had a good laugh about your comment about "seeing black helicopters". Glad you haven't lost your sense of humor about this stuff! I've not heard of these buy-back programs before, but they sure sounded foolish even before you posted your additional info. I couldn't see why a burgler would break into a house where he knows there are guns around so he can trade it in for a DVD player instead of just breaking in and stealing from an unarmed house with a DVD player in the first place. Seems to me to be the nature of all preditors whether of the two-legged or four-legged variety to go after the easy, unarmed prey. So these programs would offer nothing.

Anyhow, thanks for answering my questions.

-Tutt
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