.45-70 HSM 430gr +P RNFP Gel Test

[wm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbTst-djm-s

I thought some of you guys would enjoy this.

Wm

[GunnyMack]

That falls under the OUCH QUIT IT category.

[crs]

How could such a big heavy guy complain/whine like that?

Well, he did admit that he is not a hunter, which likely means that he does not regularly shoot clays with a 12 gauge.
Also, he was not shooting a heavy rifle, there fore allowing more recoil energy to reach him.
This 9.5 pound Miroku/Winchester 1886 .45-90 rifle damps some of the recoil and the curved butt plate allows the rifle to rotate up and back and then back down with little felt recoil.(no whining or bruising)


You may remember that in our African bullet testing, 86er was shooting 430 and 450 grain .458 bullets in his 45-70 1886 and in my 45-90 1886 at velocities above 2000 fps.
The 450 grain Alaska Bulletworks Kodiak bullets were loaded to 2150 fps from the .45-90 and in fact, they did the job on African big game including Cape Buff and ele. Down at Hondo, I dropped a running Bison with my 45-90 and one of those hot 450 grain Kodiaks and it shot through both shoulders and kept going. Real "Hammer of Thor" power. The modern 1886 is a real shooting machine.

[.45colt]

CRS wrote ;"How could such a big heavy guy complain/whine like that?" Boy your not kidding !! He needs to suck it up, or be a greeter at wally world. .

[wvfarrier]

I loaded up some of the 525 grain pile drivers for my Marlin and those suckers killed on both ends!!!

[Grizz]

I loaded up some of the 525 grain pile drivers for my Marlin and those suckers killed on both ends!!!

my daughter shoots those offhand from my guide gun, no problem for the girl...

my 425gr load is about the same velocity as that 430gr round... it recoils more than my 525gr load, but SHEESH! Is this the first real gun the guy ever shot? I think he would have gotten nearly the same gel response at 1550, and the same penetration. and a lot less recoil, which seemed to bother him somewhat. eh?

[piller]

I have a Marlin Guide Gun. Shooting Grizzry Cartridge Company's 405 grain JFP +P rounds off the bench is a little stiff if you lean into it, but letting the recoil move you back a little is the pain free way to go. Like you do with a 12 gauge, let the recoil move a little and you are fine. OK, a 12 gauge hurt back when I was 10 years old and weighed about 60 pounds. I was a skinny kid. When standing, I don't really notice the recoil of my Guide Gun. It is there, but it just doesn't make me say ouch. No, it is not a .22 lr, but it is not what that fellow makes it out to be. If you can shoot a pump action 12 gauge with duck or turkey loads, then you can handle a .45-70 with heavy loads. I usually shoot loads that are on the lower end of the recipe for modern lever actions just because I don't see the need for heavy loads for deer or pigs. One time at Hondo, Richard had a bunch of trapped wild hogs loaded in a horse trailer. Several of us lined up, and he let them go. It was a lot of fun. We shot the hogs as they ran past. I was using my Guide Gun with mild 405 grain soft point hand loads. One big hog almost got away. In the squealing melee it had not been touched. At about 50 yards away it was almost to slam through some barbed wire. 86er hollered at me to shoot that one. At the impact, it did a forward summersault and lay still. I didn't even feel the recoil. We cleaned the hogs and Richard donated the meat to a local charity.

[claybob86]

It has been suggested to me that big, solid heavy guys feel the recoil more than lighter, skinnier guys like me, because their mass absorbs most of the recoil but it just knocks me back a bit. Experience seems to support this theory.

[Bill in Oregon]

If he is used to running an AR-15, that's a big difference indeed. Those folks get all excited about .458 SOCOM recoil, which is virtually nil.
That said, I will freely admit that a 400-grain Speer going much more than 1850 out of a Marlin .45-70 is not on my list of fun things.

[Ray]

the following link is to a very popular utube channel where the reviewer goes on and on about how the then new ruger american 9mm self-loader hurts his wittle hand in the cold weather......

he even shows the viewer his wound(s) at about the 16 minute mark.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxqL9L-0sN8

in jeff quinn's own review of the pistol on gunblast.com he says : "While the 9x19mm cartridge is easy for most shooters to handle, some can not, but there is simply no pain at all inflicted in firing this pistol."

[gamekeeper]

It has been suggested to me that big, solid heavy guys feel the recoil more than lighter, skinnier guys like me, because their mass absorbs most of the recoil but it just knocks me back a bit. Experience seems to support this theory.

I have often wondered about that, I'm only a lightweight guy, even lighter when I was only 19 or 20 years old. Part of my job at Westley Richards way back then was testing repaired shotguns, firing both barrels at once of a 12gauge was something I did sometimes several times a day, it didn't bother me much at the time.
Occasionally I was asked to test a gun that a customer said had a fault. when no one else could duplicate the fault, I usually experienced the same fault, maybe I have a different way of mounting a shotgun...

Back to topic, I wouldn't want to try that load in a old Trapdoor....

[piller]

If he is used to running an AR-15, that's a big difference indeed. Those folks get all excited about .458 SOCOM recoil, which is virtually nil.
That said, I will freely admit that a 400-grain Speer going much more than 1850 out of a Marlin .45-70 is not on my list of fun things.

Bill, that sounds like you might be spot on. I do have a .458 SoCom in AR, and it is not much of a kick at all. My easy to shoot .35 Remington levergun kicks a little bit more than my .458 SoCom. My new to me 32 Win Special model 94 kicks about like my .30-30 when shooting 170 grain bullets. No, it is nothing to worry about.

Yes, using my Guide Gun with loads that are about as heavy as that design can handle are not a lot of fun to test at a bench , but when hunting with them I never even notice the recoil. However, there is no need to act like that dude in the video.

[wm]

Just for comparison sake …… 50 BMG and a young lady who enjoys shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3asZtj-fZks

Or some 13.2mm fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ovHGvT4f9k

Wm

[bikerbeans]

I gave my 160 pound son a 10ga SxS and a bunch of hand loads containing (2) 69 cal RBs over a max charge of blue dot. He fires both barrels simultaneously and laughs about, but his day job is flying an F16 so a 10ga is kinda puny compared to the 20mm in his jet.

BB

[Tycer]

450 LBT IIRC 1725 FPS.

[jdad]

I shot an 80 round silhouette match with a 45-70. The next day my neck and shoulder reminded me of what I did. I no longer own a 45-70. I'm a small guy at 175#.

[Grizz]

I loaded up some of the 525 grain pile drivers for my Marlin and those suckers killed on both ends!!!

there is something to that. the 525 is my only 45/70 load for my guide gun, I've shot it from a couple of pistols, and my 4 rifles. It is loaded to around 1310 from Blaine's 10" BFR, to around 1450 maybe from my guide gun, to a little bit more from my 22" (I think) Marlin, and tops out in the H&R Buffalo single shot. I forget what the velocity is, but it would need more powder to get more speed from the long gun. So, the point about the 525s is that I load them to a satisfactory TKO value from the guide gun. The recoil is not punishing, and a complete newbie rang the gong twice from a 100 yards. He had never fired a firearm prior to that day... although I coached him with my peep sighted 22 rifle til he could ignore the rear sight, and got the picture that the bead is the bullet. Hitting the gong with the guide gun was trivial at that point. One other stranger rang the gong too. Although there was someone there who didn't want to shoot it. Loudenboomeritis I suppose.

BUT, HERE IS AN INTERESTING THING, my straight stock 22" Marlin tattoos my shoulder with the same loads I fire with impunity from handguns and my other rifles... something to do with stock geometry I guess. It is rather like having a 2x4 on the shoulder being whacked on the other end with a splitting maul.... AND I found the same thing with my son's Marlin 444... it's way harder hitting than the 45/70s until I push 425s up past the Marlins happy place.

so much fun

[wvfarrier]

Agreed. Out of my Buffalo Classic rifle the 525s are no more abusive than a 308 but for what ever reason, out of my Marlin they really thwack. My son, who is considersbly stouter than i does not like them from it either.

[Leadhound]

It has been suggested to me that big, solid heavy guys feel the recoil more than lighter, skinnier guys like me, because their mass absorbs most of the recoil but it just knocks me back a bit. Experience seems to support this theory.

Believe this was the conclusion after a study decades ago. Was also believed ladies could handle the recoil better, because of the sway in the body, for us big guys it's like being poked with a stick. Believe it's all up to the individual as well as the platform. Depending on the powder being used if it's a quick burst or drawn out.

[Jay Bird]

Must be a bunch of young bucks here......as I've aged and gained wisdom, I learned a 44-45 caliber 250 gr. bullet traveling 1200 fps will kill anything in North America...easily......----6

[gamekeeper]

A few years ago I was shooting a antique trapdoor rifle that a fellow shooter let me try, it was loaded with BP and extremely pleasant to shoot, another shooter with a brand new Marlin came over and said hey, try this for a real .45/70, he only gave me one shot but the Marlin nearly jumped out of my hands when I fired it, I didn't feel too much recoil on my shoulder but it certainly was to me an unusual experience. I was later warned not to accept his offers of trying his guns as he was well known at the range for pushing beyond the limits of safety. I have no idea what the load was that he gave me but I will never forget how that Marlin recoiled.

[Grizz]

Must be a bunch of young bucks here......as I've aged and gained wisdom, I learned a 44-45 caliber 250 gr. bullet traveling 1200 fps will kill anything in North America...easily......----6

I don't carry 525gr loads for things that I can kill easily. I carry them for animals that are not easy to stop once their blood is up and they plan on eating you or stomping you to death.

The fact that they easily kill the animals I like to eat is a welcome bonus.

[Jay Bird]

I hear ya Grizz.....I think I must have beat myself up so bad with full loads of everything I'm gravitating towards loads that don't have much more recoil than the .22 CB Short. Even though my aforementioned 250 gr going 1200 can kill easily, I'd be using your stuff against animals that bite back. --6

[Bill in Oregon]

Gamekeeper, there are some unusual recoil dynamics with the Marlins, especially the Cowboy with the long, light barrel and heavy loads.