POLITICS - RKBA - PA Guys... You hear about this? Whassup?

[Old Ironsights]

Note - the editoralizing is NOT mine. Please don't shoot the messenger.

[quote]It looks like the Dickson City (a borough in Lackawanna County, PA) police and Lackawanna County District Attorney have erected a “new orderâ€

[C. Cash]

OI,

Not totally sure about Lackawanna County but in my county which is pretty rural, you need a permit to carry, and then you must conceal if you do. It's not apart of the culture to carry openly here, but I wish it was! This may vary from county to county but I'm just not sure. I doubt it gets any better to the east as you go towards NJ and Philly.

Another reason I want to get back to me old Homestate of Arizona! .

[rjohns94]

this has been all the talk here today. Looks like the local law enforcement officers over stepped their boundries and looks like a few law suits will be filed. Many of the citizens did well to know the law better than the police. Some over zealous DA's need to read up on the laws too. Nice thing is, this has gotten a lot of press up here and maybe both gun owners know what to do when approached in similar manner.

[AJMD429]

I saw that also. I'm sure some will gripe that it is one more "political" OT post, but when a large percentage of the population is happily trying to take our firearms (by the way, that includes "leverguns" [and "levelguns" per my earlier post] ), ignoring the "political" part of gun ownership may quiet our collective ulcers, but...

it is doing a great disservice to our children, who will have to live in the world we leave for them, and...

it is also disrespectful to the brave people who founded this nation, and didn't HAVE a choice but to live, eat, breathe, and even DIE "politics" so we could have the freedoms we take for granted, including the freedom to pontificate here about the relative merits of the 1873 vs. 1876, or ballard vs. microgroove.

I'll turn the rant switch off now but when I hear gripes from gun owners that they don't like so much "politics" I just wish the 79,990,000 other gun owners who are supposedly out there were not doing such a good job of imitating ostriches.

Now, counting me, there's 9,999 gun owners I didn't just insult - I'm sure they're all levergunners, right!

[rjohns94]

C. Cash - actually, its state law that we have open carry everywhere except philadelphia. You can go to opencarry.org and see the regs. If the locals are making exception to state law, they need to be held to the law via some law suits. IMHO

[scr83jp]

Very interesting ,it would've been even more interesting if the people had done a citizens arrest on the officer and turned him over to the state police!

[C. Cash]

C. Cash - actually, its state law that we have open carry everywhere except philadelphia. You can go to opencarry.org and see the regs. If the locals are making exception to state law, they need to be held to the law via some law suits. IMHO

Thanks Mike. I was totally in the dark on that! I've never seen anyone carry openly here unless they were at deer camp(been here 12 years). I have a concealed carry permit and from memory they tell you that you must keep your firearm concealed. Ya learn something new every day. So, no more pulling my shirt down to hide my 7.5" bbl Super Blackhawk? I can only imagine the army of soccer mom/clintbama supporters here who will call in to report a surly looking man with a large pistol though, so will probably stick to the carry of some of my smaller pistolas concealed for the time being

[Jeeps]

Apparently a customer called the police to report that some of these people were openly carrying handguns.

Musta been someone passing through from a commie state like mine or Mass.

That'll happen when sheep eat with wolves

[41 Redhawk]

Here is a post on this topic from PA Firearms Owners. The real fun starts around page 20. The members called PA. Patriot amd TaurusGuy are the ones that were detained/hassled.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed-op ... 5-9-a.html[/url]

[Larsen E. Whipsnade]

OK, I'm sure this will get me flamed, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

(A disclaimer. I wasn't there. It's possible the cops were total jerks. However, the story is obviously written from the point of view of the people carrying the firearms. I'm sure if the cops told their version it would be quite different. Most likely the truth is somewhere in the middle. Though I have no way of knowing, I'm going to make some inferences based on my experiences.)

I was a cop in Allentown, PA for 23 years. (Third largest city in PA.) Retired in 1999.

Most cops are not gun nuts. They might own a deer rifle or a .22, maybe a small back-up or off duty gun. Many don't have a gun at all except for their issue weapon. A lot do not even carry off-duty unless their agency requires it. So they are not likely to be up on every gun-related law if it is not something they ever dealt with. (I was always under the impression that PA was an open-carry state, but I confess I never saw a statute that specifically states that - although neither can I find one that specifially prohibits it (except in Philadelphia), so I infer since it is not prohibited it is legal.) Patrol cops routinely deal with the Crimes Code and the Vehicle Code. I wouldn't even guess how many different sections that comprises, certainly hundreds, probably thousands. The elements of the ones that are routinely used will be very familiar to an officer. Things that come up rarely will probably need to be looked up to be certain of all the elements and nuances. Plus there is always the possibility of court decisions that modify what the statute says in black and white. And there are plenty of other laws outside the Crime & Vehicle Codes that cops do not routinely deal with. It is not humanly possible to have all this knowledge at your fingertips. This is why lawyers have extensive law libraries.

All this is a long-winded way to say I think what happened is the officers were faced with an unfamiliar situation and they "punted" until they could get some futher guidance - which it sounds like they did from a D.A. who gave them bad advice.

(An aside from personal experience that illustrates this.) PA.'s carry permits used to list a specific gun. That is, your permit would say you were authorized to carry a S&W model 10 .38 special with a 2" barrel, ser. # xxxxx. The law did not restrict you to just that gun - you could carry any handgun - but someone who didn't know that could logically infer if you were carrying a different gun, you were violating the law. Another officer brought in a guy who had a permit but was carrying a gun other than the one specified. He was going to arrest him. I told him it didn't HAVE TO be the weapon on the permit. He called the asst. D.A. who told him to arrest the guy. (Hey, I'd take the D.A.'s word on the law over another cop's, too.) About a half hour later, after he researched it, the D.A. called back and said to let him go. Again, the point is no one can know every applicable law for every situation that may come up without doing some research. And when you're in the middle of a situation, you may have to deal with it by your best guess until you can.

Now, as to the officers actions & demeanor: again, I'm making assumptions based on my experiences - I may be completely wrong. BUT - I think the people gave the cops "attitude". It's pretty much human nature (and despite some opinions to the contrary, cops are human) if someone gives you attitude, they're going to get attitude back. I'm not saying the people weren't within their rights, but it's not necessarily smart to assert them in a belligerent manner. Again, maybe the cops DID act like arrogant jerks. My personal philosphy was always, "I'm civil to EVERYONE, even if I KNOW they're a scumbag, until they give me a reason not to be." (Some people could give me a reason in a nanosecond.) Sadly, I must admit not all officers feel that way. But even so, the smart money is to be calm and respectful and if necessary, seek redress later. If you cuss, scream, and threaten, the odds are it is not going to turn out well for you. From the description of events, it sounds like tensions were running high, and that does not make for the best judgements by any side. And I'm sure a lot will say, "You're trained, you're supposed to be above that." Well, yes, but...human, remember? And picture yourself in the situation where you're dealing with several armed people ...you don't know them from Adam...you have no idea what their motives or intentions are...you don't know how the whole thing is going to play out...if you're honest, I'll think you'll admit you'd prefer to disarm them too till you could figure out what you're dealing with.

And finally, I have to question the judgement of carrying arms openly in that scenario. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't necessarilly mean you SHOULD. It's been 20 years since I've been to Dickson City. Even at that time, while not "the big city", it wasn't the sticks, either. And since then that whole area has had a massive influx of people from NY & NJ. A lot of them already hear the banjo music from "Deliverance" when they think of gun owners. Why do something that could well reinforce that image? Also consider: though PA. is a "shall issue" state, the county sheriff has a lot of discretion to pull carry permits. And "flashing" your gun, even inadvertently, can be a reason. So if you have a permit, open carry could possibly cause you to lose it. It's called a concealed permit because it's supposed to be kept CONCEALED. And if you DON'T have a carry permit, you cannot legally have it in your vehicle unless it's unloaded. Did these people drive to the restaurant with empty guns, then load them before going in? Did they go in with UNLOADED weapons? Did they have concealed permits? If so, why not just keep them concealed? I have to wonder if they weren't deliberately trying to provoke an incident.

Again, just because you can doesn't mean you should. What might be appropriate in a small town where everyone knows everyone else may not be the smartest thing in a different environment. Also consider this: even though they had the legal right to open carry, they could still possibly be arrested for disorderly conduct. The statute reads:

§ 5503. Disorderly conduct.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:


1. engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous behavior;
2. makes unreasonable noise;
3. uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture; or
4. creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.

(b) Grading.--An offense under this section is a misdemeanor of the third degree if the intent of the actor is to cause substantial harm or serious inconvenience, or if he persists in disorderly conduct after reasonable warning or request to desist. Otherwise disorderly conduct is a summary offense.

(c) Definition.--As used in this section the word "public" means affecting or likely to affect persons in a place to which the public or a substantial group has access; among the places included are highways, transport facilities, schools, prisons, apartment houses, places of business or amusement, any neighborhood, or any premises which are open to the public.

There could conceivably be an arrest under a(4). Someone was apparently annoyed or alarmed enough to call the police in the first place. Also the argument could be made that open carry in such a place recklessly created the risk thereof: It would be up to a magistrate to decide if it created a "hazardous or physically offensive" condition and whether it was an act that served "no legitimate purpose." How that would go probably would depend on the magistrate's personal feelings about people carrying guns. And though it could probably be won eventually (after a lot of hassle & big $$,) why take the chance? PA. is a "shall issue" state - so get a permit, & cover the darn thing up! It's no restriction on your right (you're still carrying your gun) and it'll make life a lot less stressful for everyone.

A caveat: I couldn't open the link to the comments from the guys that were detained, so if there is something there that contradicts anything I said, that's why.

And an addendum: This quote...

Commonwealth v. Hawkins, 692 A.2d 1068, n.4 (Pa. 1997) (“In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license.â€

[Old Ironsights]

Mr. Whipsnade;

Not going to flame you, since what you said is true.

OTOH, consider: We Plebes are not given the luxury of "ignorance of the law". In fact, it is most often held against us as it it "no excuse".

There was "no excuse" for the behavior of the LEOs as presented - and the Citizens had every right to have an "attitude"... they were being arrested and had their property illegally confiscated after all.

RE the "disorderly conduct" statute: Most people would be required to stay at home by the simpel fact that they are arseholes that have no business bothering me with their whatever annoys me today. If it is legal, then it shouldn't matter how many people it annoys.

[Larsen E. Whipsnade]

RE the "disorderly conduct" statute: Most people would be required to stay at home by the simpel fact that they are arseholes that have no business bothering me with their whatever annoys me today.[quote]

Well I definitely have to agree with you there!

[Travis Morgan]

Larsen,

I have met people who were panicked there very second they found out I had a pocket knife, or saw a leatherman or a lockblade on my knife.

We are NOT responsible for what some thumbsucking jackass decides to panic at! The code you cited included the words "reasonable", and "intent".

Lawful carry of a firearm does not show intent to do anything, other than to be ready to use it, if needed.
I carry a Leatherman tool. It shows intent to fix things, if necessary. That doesn't mean I'm going to go on a rampage, just fixing things at will.

Panicking, calling the cops, and running around, screaming that the sky is falling is not reasonable excersising your right to carry a firearm is.

It all has to do with other people's rights. I know people who wear thigh holsters and shoot me first vests in non-shooting venues. Some wear camo, and they're not in the military. They just like the look.
I think they're wierd as hell, and always kinda figure they're the first person in the room I should be worried about.
But I don't call the cops on them.

I also don't call the cops on guys that wear thigh holsters, wear tac vests, or jabber endlessly about stopping power, or how they just can't wait for someone to break into their home, so they can shoot them.

[Larsen E. Whipsnade]

Mr. Morgan,

I agree, to a point. In your mind (and mine) the mere act of carrying a firearm, in and of itself, is reasonable and doesn't show any negative intent. But not everyone would see it that way. I was merely pointing out that if the officer felt otherwise he could conceivably make the charge, and if the magistrate felt the same way, it could stick. Plus it reinforces an already bad image that some people already have of gun owners - might just be enough to cause them to support anti-gun legislation when they otherwise wouldn't care enough one way or the other. So why do it? It's easy enough to get a permit & avoid the whole hassle.

Even when I was on the force, when I carried off-duty (which was ALWAYS) I made sure my gun was covered. I saw no reason to cause concern amongst the citizenry - and if something bad did happen, I didn't want my opponent(s) to know I was armed till it was too late. Open carry just makes you the first target.

Imagine two different scenarios:

1. You stop in a little country store in a rural area on your way to or from shooting to buy a soda, with your SAA on your hip.

2. You walk into a bank in downtown Pittsburgh to cash a check with your hogleg in plain view.

In both cases, you are within your rights and are not breaking the law regarding carry. In #1, most likely no one gives it a second thought. In #2, I can just about guarantee you are going to have a very bad day!

Like I said before, just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. Use a little discretion and fit your actions to your circumstances. I believe we'd all be a lot safer if every law-abiding, mentally stable person was armed. I just don't think it's wise to advertise it in some environments. There are enough hoplophobes out there - let's not create more. And from a cop's point of view, any gun that doesn't have a badge attached to it is suspect until he determines different. That may not seem right, but it's actually a pretty healthy view if you want to make it to retirement in one piece. I can tell you I felt that way, and believe in an armed citizen as much as anyone.

[Travis Morgan]

Actually, OCing into the bank in Meeker, Co. is quite common. Just because you're up to your butt in idiots in a given area, your RIGHTS do NOT diminish.

[505stevec]

I see your point Larsen I am an officer also. But... I see law suits acommin. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Officers should be trained as we know. Terry v. Ohio, Po Pow v. Margate, Garner v. Tennessee and many others are taught in LE Academies for this very reason. I will tell you the reason why these two officers acted the way they did. CONTEMPT OF COP. Not a written law but very real. Many young officers get sucked into traps like this because of their PRIDE. They refuse to back out of a bad decision they make and then they pay the price. I hope these two pay the price. They should have known better.

[Old Ironsights]

...Open carry just makes you the first target....

100% agreement.

Concealed is Concealed. Open Carry makes you a target. Just look at who gets shot first in Bank Heists... the Uniform.

[Travis Morgan]

Plus one, Steve!

I can see it from the officers' sides, as I've seen officers have to deal with people who THINK they know the law, but their interpretation sounds more like something written by someone on acid.

They have a REALLY hard job! How the numbers of people getting the night stick tuneup are so low, it's beyond me. I can really see how the taser becomes a "fun button". Every day, being told that the lowest idiot the public can puke up is "YOUR BOSS!", or that you're stupid, or need to go stop REAL crimes could turn anyone who doesn't know how to compartmentalise into a total dick.

That said, if you DO turn into one, you need to do desk duty or find another job.

I think everyone has met officer Power trip, who is absolutely infallible, and can't listen. (Because his other cop buddies will back him.) Some cops are genuinely REALLY good guys. They have to eat pelosi daily, and deal with attitude because of the abuse their fellows deal out to the public.

I encourage EVERYONE to assume they are meeting one of the good guys when they meet a cop, until he wants to prove otherwise. If he does, report him. Don't expect immediate action, since people do this as a hobby, just to be vindictive, but enough reports will probably provoke action by his bosses. Be sure to CC complaints to the Chief LEO in his department, as watch commanders are more like a team captain than a coach.

As for the pride thing, I think that's EXACTLY what it is. I'm not starting an "Arrogant cop" tirade here. I know a LOT of people who can't admit to being wrong.
It took me a lot of practice to get to where, even in a "man" environment, I can stop what I'm doing, (ESPECIALLY after I climbed up someone's butt and DEMANDED my way), and say, darn! I was wrong! "I need to just back off and let you do this. Anything I can do to help?"

[Slick13]

2. You walk into a bank in downtown Pittsburgh to cash a check with your hogleg in plain view.

I may be wrong, but I don't think it's legal to carry in a bank in PA, period, whether concealed or open. Same thing goes for bars last I heard. I'm not 100% positive on either of these though.

Back to the original point, the people openly carrying were not causing any problems. When the police arrived and saw there was no threatening behavoir going on, and it was just a group of families having dinner, they should have hopped back in their cruiser and left. At the very most they should have asked them that if they have permits to concealed carry and if so to please conceal their firearms because they are making some patrons nervous.

The police deserve all the critisizm and law suits heading their way.

~Michael

[Travis Morgan]

Horsehockey. If they're that nervous over someone with a fork in one hand, and a dinner roll in the other, THEY are the one that needs to conceal something. Either their discomfort, or themselves.

I'm uncomfortable around women breastfeeding in public. (Hard for me to not look.) I don't call the cops, gripe about them or throw a hay tarp over them. I shut up and leave, and try not to make them aware that they are the reason. You know why? THEY are NOT the reason I'm uncomfortable around them. It's MY mindset.

[41 Redhawk]

I'd just like to make a couple of points.

1. Open carry is not prohibited in banks or bars in PA. There are several people that do so here in the Pittsburgh area without issue.

2. PA doesn't issue a CCP or CWP. They issue a License to carry a Firearem (LTCF). Along with allowing one to carry concealed, it also allows for carrying a firearm in or on your vehicle (open or concealed) and open carry in a city of first class (Philly).

3. "Disorderly Conduct" charges for persons open carrying has already been defeated in court. The mere fact of open carrying a gun is not grounds for such a charge. Also, open carrying a gun does not provide "Reasonable Articulatable Suspicion" (RAS) for a Terry stop.

All that said, you still stand a chance of being hassled for open carry either due to ignorance or arrogance. It does seem interesting that ignornace of the law is no defense for a non-LEO but seems to work for LEO.