Internet rules!

[Nath]

They drive me mad!
Like the one about toggle links and " keeping my loads below a certain level so I don't stress the action".
I mean, has anyone seen a stressed action of a toggle link?
Well another one that cocks my eyebrow is using fine granulation black powder in large bores so yesterday I took my greedy girl Bess to test the theory.

Well dropping what turns out to be 67 grains of this brands 'fine' that looks like 4funder 1&1/2oz of shot works just fine but I have to plug the vent first.


Next I dropped the same charge under a wad and ball and wad.
I found a dis used " keep out" sign as a target. I figured it was the size of a small deers chest.
The first two aimed the same went low, the first nicked the bottom edge of the target, the other was two inch away. You can see the first shot just over the guns breach.
The next three I held higher and was delighted. At 30yds plus this greedy girl is deer ready on a relatively small charge of a fine grading of powder.



So there you go, myth busted.

Reproduction Besses don't blow up if you don't use course powder and I still ain't seen a ruined toggle link action !

N.

[wecsoger]

As Abraham Lincoln once said, "Don't believe everything you see on the internet"

(grin)

[3leggedturtle]

Hey Nath, drink some de-caffeinated tea and relax! How about only pure lead in muzzleloaders! I used rb’s and maxi’s Out of wheelweights with no problem. Had a guy who insisted on 1F for his cannon,it was a table top model in .45 cal... Todd/3leg

[Nath]

As Abraham Lincoln once said, "Don't believe everything you see on the internet"

(grin)

Hey Nath, drink some de-caffeinated tea and relax! How about only pure lead in muzzleloaders! I used rb’s and maxi’s Out of wheelweights with no problem. Had a guy who insisted on 1F for his cannon,it was a table top model in .45 cal... Todd/3leg

[3leggedturtle]

You gonna harvest that birch bark? I have so much of it, the paper thin stuff will light with sparks off a ferro rod. I cannot walk past a downed tree without getting a few pieces off of it. When I’m down south for the winter I look for fatwood and bamboo. It’s a disease I tell ya! Todd/3leg

[Pete44ru]

.

AND, Nath - Yer partner looks like everything's copacetic with her.........


.

[marlinman93]

Can't say as I've seen a stressed action of a toggle link. But I've seen plenty of worn out links, pins, screws, on this type of action from excessive pressure.

[Nath]

You gonna harvest that birch bark? I have so much of it, the paper thin stuff will light with sparks off a ferro rod. I cannot walk past a downed tree without getting a few pieces off of it. When I’m down south for the winter I look for fatwood and bamboo. It’s a disease I tell ya! Todd/3leg

I use chared cotton for tinder.
There are worse diseases.
N.

[Nath]

.

AND, Nath - Yer partner looks like everything's copacetic with her.........


.

Now now Peter, them fancy words....! I had to look that one up.
Actually she needs worming and has just stopped sulking with me for coming home from work late for two days I kid not!

[Nath]

Can't say as I've seen a stressed action of a toggle link. But I've seen plenty of worn out links, pins, screws, on this type of action from excessive pressure.

Was there oil present?
Did it make the guns dangerous?
Was it reasonable to fix?
Was anyone hurt?

Thanks.

N.

[Pete44ru]

AND, Nath - Yer partner looks like everything's copacetic with her.........

Now now Peter, them fancy words....! I had to look that one up.

Not fancy - just a $0.50 word...........


.

[gamekeeper]

The Model 1876 is the only repeating rifle that had successful, documented use in the northern plains buffalo slaughter. Earlier repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencer, and Winchester Models of 1866 and 1873 may have seen limited use, but only the Model 76 was considered by hunters as powerful enough to do the job against the big woolies. The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Streammagazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage.

I gleened this off the net, it proves to me that the toggle link action is just fine and dandy, I agree with Nath. …

[Nath]

The Model 1876 is the only repeating rifle that had successful, documented use in the northern plains buffalo slaughter. Earlier repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencer, and Winchester Models of 1866 and 1873 may have seen limited use, but only the Model 76 was considered by hunters as powerful enough to do the job against the big woolies. The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Streammagazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage.

I gleened this off the net, it proves to me that the toggle link action is just fine and dandy, I agree with Nath. …

[JerryB]

`Nath, I have to agree with you, sounds kind of high faluting to me. Like a three dollar word out of a two bit mouth.

[Nath]

`Nath, I have to agree with you, sounds kind of high faluting to me. Like a three dollar word out of a two bit mouth.

Pete is a good'n and worth all the money in the world.

[marlinman93]

Can't say as I've seen a stressed action of a toggle link. But I've seen plenty of worn out links, pins, screws, on this type of action from excessive pressure.

Was there oil present?
Did it make the guns dangerous?
Was it reasonable to fix?
Was anyone hurt?

Thanks.

N.

Since the guns I've owned or examined were all very old, I can't give answers to all your questions. Some were well oiled, and some weren't. But whether they were well oiled all their life, or just recently, is tough to tell on an old gun.
Were they dangerous? I can't say that either, but with enough wear on them they weren't all guns I cared to purchase. Just looked like more work and parts on some to make them good tight guns for me. Which answers the next question. Reasonable to fix is a pretty open ended question. It depends on parts, and the purchase price of a gun, vs. what it's worth. Can't just say every gun is worth fixing, as some parts can be purchased, while some are obsolete and need to be custom made.
And nobody was hurt. I've seen blown up guns, but they've been all sorts of designs, and often the blowups had nothing to do with the design.

[Nath]

Can't say as I've seen a stressed action of a toggle link. But I've seen plenty of worn out links, pins, screws, on this type of action from excessive pressure.

Was there oil present?
Did it make the guns dangerous?
Was it reasonable to fix?
Was anyone hurt?

Thanks.

N.

Since the guns I've owned or examined were all very old, I can't give answers to all your questions. Some were well oiled, and some weren't. But whether they were well oiled all their life, or just recently, is tough to tell on an old gun.
Were they dangerous? I can't say that either, but with enough wear on them they weren't all guns I cared to purchase. Just looked like more work and parts on some to make them good tight guns for me. Which answers the next question. Reasonable to fix is a pretty open ended question. It depends on parts, and the purchase price of a gun, vs. what it's worth. Can't just say every gun is worth fixing, as some parts can be purchased, while some are obsolete and need to be custom made.
And nobody was hurt. I've seen blown up guns, but they've been all sorts of designs, and often the blowups had nothing to do with the design.

Thanks.
So it's pretty safe to assume that alot of folks presume the worst about toggle links!
Is that an oxymoron?

N.

[KirkD]

I enjoyed the report, Nath. I've had at least seven very well-used Winchester Model 1873's and 1876's pass through my hands. None of them had worn toggle links, at least enough to increase the headspace. Some of them had well-worn, broken, or home made replacement parts, but none of those included the toggle links. The way those toggle links work is once the bolt is closed, the links are open to form straight bridges, and the force goes lengthwise through the toggle links, with very little force on the pins. So the whole system is stronger than most people realize. Keep up the good work and the photos!

[Pitchy]

Too add to what Kirk said if the links are fitted properly there is no stress on the pins at all the force is against the part of the frame behind the link.

[Old Savage]

I am here to say Pete is a copacetic kinda guy that shoots some classy guns.

[Old Savage]

No polymorphonuclear change of the reticuloendothelial system expected there.

[Nath]

No polymorphonuclear change of the reticuloendothelial system expected there.

How do OS?
How is your toggle link bearing up?

N.

[Nath]

Thanks Kirk and Pitchy.

N.

[Pete44ru]

`Nath, I have to agree with you, sounds kind of high faluting to me. Like a three dollar word out of a two bit mouth.

Pete is a good'n and worth all the money in the world.

Thanks, Nath & Fred - I wouldn't have thought JerryB to be so snarky, being as I never got next to any wimmen in his life...…


.

[Old Savage]

Nath, as far as lock up this AM everything seemed to be alright. No head space issues that I could detect.

[Nath]

Nath, as far as lock up this AM everything seemed to be alright. No head space issues that I could detect.

[JerryB]

Well I reckon I need to clear the air with a man I deeply admire and look forward to his always coming on with the right info on some very tough gun questions. Pete, in my part of the south I have lived in before moving up north to the Arkansas Ozarks that saying was always used as a friendly come back to some one that tries to use words they think they heard. I am sorry for the unintended sarcasm.

[Pete44ru]

.

Apology accepted, Jerry - thank you.

Sometimes the internet, combined with differing backgrounds, takes us somewhere we never meant to go.

Regards,
Pete

[Old Ironsights]

RE: BP & Fines...

I think the "prohibition" against using Fine powder in rifles had more to do with its hydrophilic nature than any specific danger.

Heck, I PREFER 3F in my rifles an 7F in my pistols. Seems to give a little more velocity and, if a properly sived powder, actually shoots cleaner than commercial 2F/3F...

[piller]

I don't see why a finer granulation would cause more pressure. If it is all the same weight, it should give the same pressure and velocity. I am not an expert on this.

[Old Ironsights]

I don't think it's so much the "pressure" as it is the pressure Spike comes much faster.

That's why you use 7+F for flash/pan prime and 1-2f in large rifles and cannon. The larger the grains, the slower the burn even if the absolute volume of gas is the same.

[piller]

That is something I can understand.