Kalifornia guys: what about tin?

[O.S.O.K.]

I was just wondering - tin is used as an additive to lead for bullet casting. It's $35 for two pounds from Midway USA, but I'm betting that there's a less expensive source available.

Just thinking that this may be the answer for cast hunting bullets there...

[JReed]

The problem with tin is it is much harder then lead that is why it is added to lead to bring the hardness up. To hard of a cast bullet would be no better then a FMJ neat hole in neat hole out unless it happend to tumble. I dont think it would make for a humane hunting bullet unless it was hollow point.

[Gryphon Black]

Actually, Tin does work for casting, but you have to do some experimenting. It is harder than lead, and it also cools in the mold to a larger diameter, as tin doesn't shrink as much on the freeze.
I have worked up a special light load in Milady's pistola that uses a bullet cast from tin. I went to that because I needed a longer bullet to seat deeper in the case, but I had to keep the weight down. Tin is a lot lighter than lead, though it has similar melting properties.
From a mold made for 9mm, casting lead 147gr bullets that drop out measuring .356, a tin bullet drops out measuring .3585 weighing 105gr. I size it to .357 for that size bore, and load it into shortened .38 case.
Another problem with tin is that I don't know of a solvent that is formulated to clean it from a bore.
And yes, it is that expensive. Metal prices have inflated waayyy more than oil, and it costs a couple dollars to buy it.
The price for this kind of experiment wouldn't be that high, in the volumes being discussed, but it ain't cheap.
In my case, it turned out to be exactly what my special wildcat round needed. In this case, for a hunting rifle bullet, it might also work, but you would need to take into account weight difference, and especially the overlarge dropout size.
I had started with a mold for .357 bullets, and the .360 bullet I got from that mold wouldn't push through the sizer without considerable effort. So you'd need to get a custom mold that was two thousandths undersized, and also designed to allow as much material as you could squeeze into it to keep the weight up.
I think Barnes has already worked out all that math for us with copper, and handi is almost certainly cutting around a lot of R&D by modifying the copper Barnes for his project.
Now if this lead thing continues to worsen, we are almost certainly gonna find ourselves casting tin bullets, expensive or not, for a lot of our shooting needs.
Just remember:
Harder than lead
About two thirds the weight
Freezes at least .002 oversize

And one of the factors in favour of it, it won't lead up your ground water after you shoot a bajillion of 'em out in your backyard!

{mighta opened a can o' worms with that!}

And I got my tin from melting plumbing solder. I just put the dipping ladle in a torch flame and pushed the wire straight into it. I needed small amounts for experimentation, and that worked fine. But ya do gotta keep that mold nice and hot!

Gryphon

[handirifle]

One thing I'm looking into is casting tungsten powder in molten tin, AS A CORE for a copper jacketed bullet.

Tungsten is very expensive, but weighs half again more than lead, so it might produce a bullet the same length as a lead core bullet, I hope. I also hope it can produce an affordable bullet.

What it would take is a core designed like a partition, with the nose, looking and working more like a Barnes TSX, with expansion stopping at the partition.

[donw]

keep in mind, these things must be approved by the DOJ/DFG...whomever here in kaliphornia and they're generally NOT open to alternatives that are some thing they did not come up with and it's a long, lengthy, EXPENSIVE process to get approval from them.

[O.S.O.K.]

The idea was to cast tin bullets as an option for leverguns that are of a bore diameter that Barnes doesn't make flat nosed x-bullets for.

Tin is harder than lead, yes but is it harder than copper/brass? The idea is that it's easily cast and of course you can size them...

I wasn't aware that the ***'s that wrote the commie law put in provisions that require approval of the alternatives to lead... just shows their true intent.

I guess my initial reaction about moving out of that... place were right on the money.

[handirifle]

it does have to ba approved, but there's no indication there's any fee for it. Not even on the application, so i don't think they are charging for it, yet!

I understand about the bore dia issue, but the tin will come off very light, thus making the bullet less efective, especially if it does expand or fragment.

Fragmentation would be a greater concer to me, with using pure tin.

[Andrew]

I think $35 for 2lbs of bullet fodder is gonna make it pretty unpopular. Heck, I thought lead was high .

I am no expert, but I think JReed had a good idea with making them HP's. If they would hold up, putting a square hole in the end(Barnes X) might make it petal. I don't know. If it's too soft it would just snap into pieces and become just a smaller version of the original.

[KirkD]

One thing I'm looking into is casting tungsten powder in molten tin, AS A CORE for a copper jacketed bullet.

How hard is tungsten. Is it harder than steel? What would it do to the bore?

[Gryphon Black]

Tungsten is what they use to tip the teeth on saw blades. It's a LOT harder than steel, and dern near impossible for a home shop to machine. Guess that's why he said "powdered".

I think copper and tin are similar in hardness, gotta ask the metalworker I know about that. Brass is harder and a lot stronger than eiother tin or copper, why we had the Bronze Age. Brass is bronze, they just vary in the alloy. They use it for bonebreaker big game bullets cuz it won't deform unless you hit something like masonry or stone.

I know some rounds marketed as "frangible" [read-will shatter on impact] are a copper jacket filled with tin, and are substantially lighter as a result.

[Gryphon Black]

Here's a thought...

Have you weighed steel against copper? Might be easier to press a steel core into it than to melt a tin one.

Also, I am wondering if the tungsten powder will settle to the bottom of the molten lead while your trying to pour it, giving off-balance weight?

{head scritch]

[O.S.O.K.]

tungsten is harder than steel but it'd be fine as a core material - in fact, it's already used that way by Speer with it's African Grand Slam bullets.

Maybe tin isn't the thing. I was just wondering. And say for a 200 grain bullet, you'd get 70 out of 2 lbs or about $.58 per bullet assuming some shipping cost.

I was thinking like 32 Special and 35 Remington, etc.

I guess you can just fcut down x-bullets to make em flat points... should do just fine that way - it wouldn't be hard to set-up a jig so they'd be consistent. In fact, a drill press with a large drill bit centered on the point and drilling down to a set point would do the trick.

[handirifle]

OSOK

I'm way ahead of you on that point.

viewtopic.php?t=5008

[scr83jp]

I wonder if metal filled epoxy forced into a copper hull with a copper base would make a bullet heavy enough to use in a rifle?

[handirifle]

It depends on the metal. The epoxy, although acting as a binder, takes up valuable space and is lighter than metals.

I'm convinced, the Barnes MRX is the densest combo we'll see, as tungsten is nearly twice the weight of lead.

[Jason_W]

How about bronze?

It might be cheaper than an all copper bullet, if you could find a cheap source of tin (tin cans?). The copper would not be cheap, but maybe you could collect enough pre 1982 pennies to cut that cost. Not that I would ever advocate defacing American currency

[Jason_W]

As my mind is spinning a bit, I'm wondering if some kind of decent for bullet alloy could by made melting down spent .22 lr cases and mixing in tin and supplemental amounts of pure copper.

Of course, there might be trace amounts of lead on .22 cases.

[Noah Zark]

What about sintered powdered metal frangible bullets?



Frangible P/M bullets are primarily used for police and military training range use where the hazards of lead are eliminated through use of P/M projectiles.

Sintered P/M bullets are made from a copper/tin powder blend and pressed in powder compaction equipment, then sintered (baked) in a furnace at temperatures that cause the metal powder particles to start to melt and attach to each other. There's just enough of a "melt" to ensure that the bullets stay in one piece during manufacture, loading in ammunition, cycling through a firearm, and travel down a barrel to a target.

On soft targets a sintered P/M bullet will penetrate, but on harder targets like steel plates, backstops, rocks, etc, the bullets simply pulverize.

The copper/tin powder blend results in a bullet much lighter than a copper jacketed lead bullet of the same volume, but they can be loaded to the same if not higher velocities.

Sinterfire ( http://www.sinterfire.com/ ) is one company that manufactures such bullets, and sells them through distributors.

Frangible Ammo ( http://frangibleammo.com/ ) is one Sinterfire distributor for bullets and loaded ammo.

Both businesses are less than 12 miles from me here in the heart of powdered metal (P/M) country.

I use the 155 gr 45 bullet in 45ACP with 5.2 gr of W231 as a standard plinking round. I've fired a few in a reasonably-fresh roadkill whitetail and the bullets generally stay together unless they hit a large bone, at which point they either stay intact or break up into smaller fragments, usually with some damage to the bone.

Sintered P/M bullets of copper/tin could be a reasonable option for you Kali residents.

Noah

[O.S.O.K.]

Ah after reading handirifle's post on using existing TSX bullets and making flat points out of them, I think that's the most reasonable answer. They are already approved too.

You'd think Barnes would be all over this - not like they'd only sell em in Kalifornia....

This is really stupid though - kinda like the global warming BS.

[handirifle]

OSOK
Actually, they're hollow points, and I couldn't agree more on the stupid part.

Barnes has told me they're not interested in them, at this point. Said the CA law has them covering a lot of areas. Not sure what they are, though.

I'd love to see them work with Hornady with the gummy tipped bullets made from a TSX.

[Gryphon Black]

Handi- Never mind all the cranial flatulence, we're with ya man! Keep on them copper boolits, and we'll watch what comes outa yer shop. Once you got a recipe that gets it done, post it.
Then mebbe we can help with the "how to" part. Lotta folks in the no-lead zone waiting to find out.

Gryphon