Non-Lead Bullets

oldgerboy · Post by **oldgerboy** » Thu May 01, 2008 4:10 pm

I don't want to hijack the other thread so....

Non-Lead bullets, as has been noted, is an unfortunate part of some California lives at this time. I've read the post on making the copper bullets and I got to thinking. More than likely this was covered and I missed it but here goes.

There are substitutes for the lead shot in use for waterfowling. Is that shot or material available commercially? If it is, would it be feasable to make cast bullets out of it? I realize cost, noxious gasses, melt temperature, reaction to mold material, cooling shrinkage, and heaven knows what might be considerations in its usage.

So you have a metalurgically challenged guy asking ... Is it possible?

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Thu May 01, 2008 4:12 pm

How about tin?

oldgerboy · Post by **oldgerboy** » Thu May 01, 2008 4:17 pm

The weight of the substitute material is a consideration. Where does tin fall on the elements chart?

BobCat · Post by **BobCat** » Thu May 01, 2008 4:51 pm

Density of lead is 8.3 grams per cc - melts about 621ÂºF
Tin is 7.3 g/cc and it melts ~100ÂºF lower, at ~450ÂºF
Molten lead does not "wet" steel well; molten tin wets steel real well!

Copper is 8.9 g/cc but it melts too high for easy casting at home - sbout 1982ÂºF. You would be better off warm swaging it. You can soft anneal it at 7-800ÂºF if it work hardens too much before you get the shape you want.

Silver would work but it costs more than any of the above, none of us are really the Lone Ranger, and I for one have not had to shoot any vampires lately.

They use tungsten for some of the "non-toxic" shotgun loads. It does not melt at any reasonable temperature, needs to be pressed and sintered - even your light bulb filaments.

This is an interesting topic. I urge y'all to speculate and imagine, and think about mixtures - alloys or mechanical mixtures (like tungsten powder in a lower-melting matrix). I'll be checking back and trying to supply dry facts as needed.

Nothing is cheap anymore, and everything is toxic if you eat too much of it, even potato chips.

Regards,
Andrew

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Thu May 01, 2008 5:41 pm

Got some numbers a little off there on the lead.

rolled lead is 11.39, cast lead is 11.35

tin is 7.36

copper is 8.69 cast and 8.91 rolled

For a given volume, a copper bullet will weigh 78.5% as much as a lead bullet

For a given volume, a tin bullet will weigh 64.8% as much as lead.

So a mold that cast a 400 grain lead bullet would cast a 259 grain tin bullet. That's a pretty big drop.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Thu May 01, 2008 5:56 pm

What is the hardness of pure tin? Is it comparable to lead?

I am a metal neophyte / ignoramous, so forgive me if the following sounds ridiculous....

Could a guy buy some 3/8" OD copper pipe/tubing, run it through some sort of die to put an acceptable ogive on it, and fill it with tin? Maybe drop a gas check in it first.

Or, how about filling up copper tubing with bismuth or tungsten 9-shot and applying a heavy compressive load to it to "squish" it together into a mass, then running it thorugh an ogive die to seal the top. I'm guessing performance on game would be dismall, with full jacket seperation.

I'd better stop...I think I've stretched the limits of reality and practicallity.

Although, I do own two compression machines if anyone wants to play - I could theoretically apply 4,500 kips (4.5 million psi) to a 3/8" diameter area, but I think that would be a bit tough on my steel platens.

oldgerboy · Post by **oldgerboy** » Thu May 01, 2008 6:00 pm

Now that's what I wanted to get started. The California guys are going to need something.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Thu May 01, 2008 6:01 pm

BobCat wrote:
Nothing is cheap anymore, and everything is toxic if you eat too much of it, even potato chips.

<crunch> <crunch> <crunch> <crunch> Huh? They are?

Noah

BobCat · Post by **BobCat** » Thu May 01, 2008 7:40 pm

Nah, but I switched to tortilla chips anyway, on account of I can used them to scoop up hot sauce.

71fan, you are on to some good ideas. Tin is softer than lead, both can be hardened a bit by alloying, and using a copper tube jacket is a very good idea. A company called Corbin sells a bullet swage that uses spent .22 cases for jackets, on lead-core bullets; same basic idea.

Raw materials prices are going to be a bear. Lead, as expensive as it is in comparison with what it was, is still quite a bit cheaper per pound than copper or zinc or other easily-formed metals.

You guys are smart. I think I'll stick around, this is a good discussion.

Regards,
Andrew

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu May 01, 2008 7:58 pm

I thought tin was a bit pricey.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu May 01, 2008 8:30 pm

How about regular old steel, in a plastic sabot? Granted, the hoplophobes would freak, but it is fairly heavy, could attain good sectional density in a saboted configuration, and is CHEAP compared to lead. I don't know what a .45 diameter hole punch would do to a deer if it was done by a steel bullet vs. a 'hard cast solid' or an all-copper bullet, but if you didn't need fragmentation why wouldn't it work?

Or, if you want fragmentation, is concrete dense enough? Again, you'd have to sabot it, but let's face it, unless you're using lead or copper or some alloy that is soft yet dense (a.k.a. a "Liberal" alloy

), sabots may become a vital part of sending bullets downrange in the future.

I still want to load up some pea gravel in .40 in/.45 out sabots and fling them out of my .45-70; might not be much to hunt a 100 yard deer with, but in a pinch for home defense I don't think the target would complain any.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Thu May 01, 2008 8:53 pm

Tin is softer than lead

Tin is not softer than lead. Lead is 38.3 MPa and tin is 51 MPa.

Pure tin has more of a crystaline structure. It would make a very brittle bullet that in all likelyhood would shatter on impact with any of the larger bones at anyting but pedestrian speeds.

And yes, it would cost a small fortune.

scr83jp · Post by **scr83jp** » Thu May 01, 2008 9:12 pm

BobCat wrote:Density of lead is 8.3 grams per cc - melts about 621ÂºF
Tin is 7.3 g/cc and it melts ~100ÂºF lower, at ~450ÂºF
Molten lead does not "wet" steel well; molten tin wets steel real well!

Copper is 8.9 g/cc but it melts too high for easy casting at home - sbout 1982ÂºF. You would be better off warm swaging it. You can soft anneal it at 7-800ÂºF if it work hardens too much before you get the shape you want.

Silver would work but it costs more than any of the above, none of us are really the Lone Ranger, and I for one have not had to shoot any vampires lately.

They use tungsten for some of the "non-toxic" shotgun loads. It does not melt at any reasonable temperature, needs to be pressed and sintered - even your light bulb filaments.

This is an interesting topic. I urge y'all to speculate and imagine, and think about mixtures - alloys or mechanical mixtures (like tungsten powder in a lower-melting matrix). I'll be checking back and trying to supply dry facts as needed.

Nothing is cheap anymore, and everything is toxic if you eat too much of it, even potato chips.

Regards,
Andrew

How about Zinc?All metal has trace amounts of lead in it & copper is toxic.All of this BS & the CA F&G Dept can't pinpoint where the lead is coming from!Another thought powdered iron in an epoxy matrix inside of full copper jacket & base,don't know what it would weigh.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Thu May 01, 2008 9:39 pm

How are you going to work with the zinc. It gives off some pretty nasty fumes when melted even though it's melting point isn't all that much above lead alloys. It could be cold formed as it is malleable but it has to be heated (~300F) before it can be readily formed. Otherwise, you better have one heck of a press as it is also pretty darn hard (412MPa). It's SG is 7.14 so it is even lighter than tin.

Like it or not, copper is still the best alternative.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu May 01, 2008 10:04 pm

Maybe there is a non-metal substance that could work. Perhaps some kind of ceramic, or carbon based compound.

What may end up happening (if more states start jumping on the anti-lead bandwagon) is we use some kind of cheap practice bullet for range work, and the pricey copper bullets for hunting.

While I wouldn't be happy about it (and I would fight it tooth and nail) if I could only use lead bullets at the range and had to use copper bullets to hunt, I could probably live with it.

scr83jp · Post by **scr83jp** » Thu May 01, 2008 10:14 pm

Here in CPROC no one pays any attention to the hunters,sportsmen & sportswomen just all of the antis & gun haters running CA

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Thu May 01, 2008 10:22 pm

KirkD: the last time I checked the price of tin for casting, it was approx. US $10.00 a pound. I think it has gone down since I looked, but I don't think by very much.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Thu May 01, 2008 10:30 pm

"While I wouldn't be happy about it (and I would fight it tooth and nail) if I could only use lead bullets at the range and had to use copper bullets to hunt, I could probably live with it."
--JasonW

That will work -- if the range ground water/ storm runs off doesn't feed into the local aquifer.

These anti-lead advocates will not be satisfied until all lead is banned &/or strictly controlled. Observe that -- under certain circumstances -- the mere possession of a single lead bullet in CA condor range is a violation of the law.

Same w/ the antifireams advocates. About 10-12 years ago, they really started to push bullet/ammunition bans & began to cast their eyes upon the home reloader.

miestro_jerry · Post by **miestro_jerry** » Thu May 01, 2008 10:35 pm

Pewter, one formula is 90% tin, 10% copper. Nearly armor piercing in hardness.

I use Barnes and other solids for hunting, so the meat stays intact.

Jerry

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:47 pm

Hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but hope to contribute, and learn.

There's some good ideas going along here, trust me, MOST I have checked on or looked up, but I'm sure there's a lot I missed too.

Tungsten is a good product, BUT, I checked on a tungsten alloy, in .310 dia. This dia fits very well inside certain 3/8" tubing, making a good base, like they use in the Barnes MRX bullet.

Found out why those bullets are about $31 for a box of 20, the price quoted me for those .310 rods is $40 per foot! If you used 1/2" per bullet. I'm sure economy of scale comes into play but that's expensive.

I don't think filling a jacket with shot of any kind will work well, due to the inconsistant weight distribution inside causing wobble in flight.

Using steel or tungsten in the base of the bullet, like the Barnes

Is the easiest, but maybe not the cheapest route.

Now this gets interesting for different reasons. If we took some very thick walled 3/8" tubing (for 375 cal) and used a swage tool to compress a "partition" over the top of the insert of (fill in metal of choice here) and then swage a tapered ogive nose suitable for a levergun, then it would open in the nose, but retain the base weight and shape.

I see molybdenum is slightly heavier than copper, but not as heavy as tungsten. I just sent off an email to a company about tungsten powder they clain can be used for casting, so we'll see.

A swaged casing with a heavy insert will most likely be the easiets method, cost will be determined. I'd love to see a feasible replacement to lead or copper.

I'll let you guys know what I find out.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Fri May 02, 2008 3:53 am

come on, you guys are thinking wrong. Just use pennies, three or four would make a bullet (38.8 gr ea).

Remember those souvenir machines for tourists, you put a penny in and it smashes it into a medallion? Can't we crush a penny into a small bullet?

What about nickel? It seems pretty heavy (77.8 gr). Can we crush a nickel into a bullet?

If a machine applied pressure to the sides, it would mash it into a cylinder, which could be rolled and formed, right? Insert a nickel, out pops a bullet.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri May 02, 2008 8:08 am

Ray Newman wrote:"
That will work -- if the range ground water/ storm runs off doesn't feed into the local aquifer.

A lot of ranges have existed for decades, and there is probably more lead in the soil on the grounds than actual soil. What would be the point in making us cease using lead at them at this particular juncture?

I am very much the environmentalist. I'm the closest thing to a tree hugging granola muncher that will ever post on this forum. If lead from hunters is truly harming the very wildlife I hunt, I'll reconsider my ammo. That being said, I have yet to read a single impartial and peer reviewed study that conclusively links lead from hunters to wildlife poisoning. It seems like there is a lot of false logic and knee jerk reactions invovled with these decisions to ban lead.

It's not like we're out there shooting up the woods for spits and giggles, sending metric tons of lead into landscape every day.

BobCat · Post by **BobCat** » Fri May 02, 2008 9:15 am

Leverluver,

We are comparing apples and oranges here.

ASM Metals Handbook, Vol. 2 Tenth Ed. page 519 gives hardness of commercially pure tin as 3.9 HB at 68ÂºF, 3.0 at 140ÂºF, and 2.3 at 212ÂºF.

Most cast bullets are closer to 10-20 HB but they contain some alloying elements so the comparison is not correct.

Both metals are very, very soft.

I was probably wrong to state categorically that tin is softer than lead, without specifying an analysis (assumed commercially pure).

Regards,
Andrew

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Fri May 02, 2008 10:05 am

"A lot of ranges have existed for decades, and there is probably more lead in the soil on the grounds than actual soil. What would be the point in making us cease using lead at them at this particular juncture? "
--JasonW.

Unfounded public fear of a polluted water supply, or a bay, river, etc.

I know of several ranges that were shut down because of the run off water drained into San Francisco Bay or the sdhot from the trap/skeet ranges fell into the waters.

Remember the public fear of lead based paint?

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri May 02, 2008 10:10 am

Ray Newman wrote:"
Unfounded public fear of a polluted water supply, or a bay, river, etc.

I know of several ranges that were shut down because of the run off water drained into San Francisco Bay or the sdhot from the trap/skeet ranges fell into the waters.

Remember the public fear of lead based paint?

This is exactly my point. We need to put an end to legislation based upon unfounded public fear. Decisions should be based only on unbiased scientific research.

Someone hypothesizes that lead from hunter's bullets is having an adverse effect on wildlife populations?

Ok, fine. Please prove it by applying the scientific method.

I learned such basics in 9th grade.

donw · Post by **donw** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:23 am

like another so cal subject stated earlier, i'm sure the state legislature will surely step in to nullify any reasonable solution.

kaliphornia IS NOT GUN FRIENDLY in any way, size, shape or form...proof lies in the legislation passed every session....

jason_w is correct...legislation here in kaliphornia is based on what makes legislators "feel good"...not what is right or wrong, moral or immoral...they do exactly what they wish to, not what is right.