Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
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- J Miller
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Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Many years ago, somewhere in a magazine I read that British soldiers were trained to shoot the Enfield bolt rifles very fast. The article stated they could shoot 30 rounds a minute, aimed fire. If you start with a full 10 round magazine that includes 2 full reloads.
I said to myself, how the heck can they do that, I'm gonna try it. I could get going pretty good until the mag was empty, but never could get close to 30 rounds a minute.
Yesterday whilst suffering through the colonoscopy prep I found a series of You-tube videos from a fellow that goes by: Bloke on the Range.
His video gives specific design reasons why the Enfields could be fired so fast. Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-EdQuAxAII
In another video posted by: britishmuzzloaders, he demonstrates this method from the prone position towards the end of his video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYI4DvXKiQ4 (about the 22 minute point)
When I get that Enfield of mine out and to the range again, I've got to try the method they showed.
Sounds like a bunch of fun to me. And no worry about burning out the barrel, it's all but shot out now, can't hurt it any more.
Joe
I said to myself, how the heck can they do that, I'm gonna try it. I could get going pretty good until the mag was empty, but never could get close to 30 rounds a minute.
Yesterday whilst suffering through the colonoscopy prep I found a series of You-tube videos from a fellow that goes by: Bloke on the Range.
His video gives specific design reasons why the Enfields could be fired so fast. Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-EdQuAxAII
In another video posted by: britishmuzzloaders, he demonstrates this method from the prone position towards the end of his video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYI4DvXKiQ4 (about the 22 minute point)
When I get that Enfield of mine out and to the range again, I've got to try the method they showed.
Sounds like a bunch of fun to me. And no worry about burning out the barrel, it's all but shot out now, can't hurt it any more.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
There is a lot of misinformation regarding the "mad minute". Fired at 300 yards it was not at a 12" target as is usually reported but a nearly full size silhouette.
The scandinavian countries still compete in the fast bolt action shooting. Granted they have slicked up guns but they still demonstrate some shooting skill. Lots of videos on youtube.
Here are the rules for a Facebook group (based out of Norway I believe) trying to get others around the world involved. They modified the British rules it seems but it's still fun challenge.
Col. Whelen once said something that developed into the Whelen Challenge. 6 rounds from a 1903 Sprinfield, 12" target at 200 yards. He claimed himself and those with him on the shooting team of the time could do it in under 10 seconds. I dont have an 03 Springfield so I used my .308 and was able to get down below 12 seconds. So far I've only found two of us on youtube that have bothered to film that particular challenge. Based on my limited experience I think there is a lot of hubbub about the Enfield being a faster action than other bolt guns.
At any rate it puts to bed the myth that manually operated guns are slow!
The scandinavian countries still compete in the fast bolt action shooting. Granted they have slicked up guns but they still demonstrate some shooting skill. Lots of videos on youtube.
Here are the rules for a Facebook group (based out of Norway I believe) trying to get others around the world involved. They modified the British rules it seems but it's still fun challenge.
Col. Whelen once said something that developed into the Whelen Challenge. 6 rounds from a 1903 Sprinfield, 12" target at 200 yards. He claimed himself and those with him on the shooting team of the time could do it in under 10 seconds. I dont have an 03 Springfield so I used my .308 and was able to get down below 12 seconds. So far I've only found two of us on youtube that have bothered to film that particular challenge. Based on my limited experience I think there is a lot of hubbub about the Enfield being a faster action than other bolt guns.
At any rate it puts to bed the myth that manually operated guns are slow!
Last edited by HawkCreek on Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- GunnyMack
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
The cock on opening guns have the speed advantage. The enfolds once broken in would just about close themselves with just a bit of forward thrust to the bolt.
I knew an Englishman that was trained in this and he was FAST! He could 'flick' a bolt open and back with little effort.
I knew an Englishman that was trained in this and he was FAST! He could 'flick' a bolt open and back with little effort.
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
For more info on the Scandinavian shooting contests, google "stangskyting" .
Jack
Jack
Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
I am a bit confused, here, since every Lee Enfield I have encountered was cock-on-closing.GunnyMack wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:18 am The cock on opening guns have the speed advantage. The enfolds once broken in would just about close themselves with just a bit of forward thrust to the bolt.
I knew an Englishman that was trained in this and he was FAST! He could 'flick' a bolt open and back with little effort.
- J Miller
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
The fellow in the first video gave many more reasons than the cock on closing / opening differences. I've watched it twice and as a very long time Enfield owner /shooter / fan (50 years +/-) I can see what he is talking about. I don't think he was talking about shooting matches, but actual rapid fire during combat with fully loaded rifles.
The large magazine capacity of the Enfields obviously contribute to this, (one of the reasons I like them better than the Mauser and other design bolt guns), as starting with only 5 or 6 rounds would require many more reloads and be slower for sure.
Pisgah,
You are correct, all the British Enfields, in all their incarnations, were cock on close designs.
Joe
The large magazine capacity of the Enfields obviously contribute to this, (one of the reasons I like them better than the Mauser and other design bolt guns), as starting with only 5 or 6 rounds would require many more reloads and be slower for sure.
Pisgah,
You are correct, all the British Enfields, in all their incarnations, were cock on close designs.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Interesting post Joe.
I've read some reports, from WWI I think it was, where German troops -- who had been subjected to the massed volley of a "Mad Minute" by a group of Brits * -- would later say they thought they were under attack by machine gun fire, and not by infantry armed with bolt-action rifles.
...* What is the Brit term for a small group -- a squad, or platoon?
Old No7
I've read some reports, from WWI I think it was, where German troops -- who had been subjected to the massed volley of a "Mad Minute" by a group of Brits * -- would later say they thought they were under attack by machine gun fire, and not by infantry armed with bolt-action rifles.
...* What is the Brit term for a small group -- a squad, or platoon?
Old No7
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
I served with the Canadian Rangers using Lee Enfields. This link gives you an idea of a mad minute.
I was part of a 4 man team, that ran 100 meters then shot at 100 meters falling steel plates. We beat a Canadain Navy reserve four man team that was Shooting C7's Candain versions of the M16.
This is a more recent demo of a mad minute with the Candian Rangers. This demo is at a much closer distance.
https://youtu.be/Pep-Hfua8TI
Our shoot in 1991 was more like this.
https://youtu.be/Ntl4CZdftyg
I was part of a 4 man team, that ran 100 meters then shot at 100 meters falling steel plates. We beat a Canadain Navy reserve four man team that was Shooting C7's Candain versions of the M16.
This is a more recent demo of a mad minute with the Candian Rangers. This demo is at a much closer distance.
https://youtu.be/Pep-Hfua8TI
Our shoot in 1991 was more like this.
https://youtu.be/Ntl4CZdftyg
- J Miller
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Sam,
Thanks for the videos. I loved the first one, that rapid fire sounded like rain drops.
Joe
Thanks for the videos. I loved the first one, that rapid fire sounded like rain drops.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
- GunnyMack
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Pisgah- you got me b4 my coffee this morning! Guess I should stop looking/responding whilst I'm having my morning discussion with congress!!!
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- marlinman93
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Enfields have one of the fastest bolt cycle times of any military rifle.
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
The Brits (and their enfield) are most famous for the widespread teaching of rapid bolt manipulation. I still think the enfield is overrated as fast. I'd like to spend some serious range time with one to really see but his is me shooting with an off the shelf Ruger. I honestly think the heavier weight and longer sight radius would be much more benefit than a different action.
Whelen Challenge:
https://youtu.be/GPuGDarKkog
I've seen faster guys on YouTube but I've found its VERY rare to see a target in their videos.
Whelen Challenge:
https://youtu.be/GPuGDarKkog
I've seen faster guys on YouTube but I've found its VERY rare to see a target in their videos.
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
A Brit (and Commonwealth) platoon was made up of three 'sections' of ten and a headquarters group of 3 to 4 (2LT/LT, SGT, Batman and Signaller). Sections were/are commanded by a CPL.Old No7 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:04 am Interesting post Joe.
I've read some reports, from WWI I think it was, where German troops -- who had been subjected to the massed volley of a "Mad Minute" by a group of Brits * -- would later say they thought they were under attack by machine gun fire, and not by infantry armed with bolt-action rifles.
...* What is the Brit term for a small group -- a squad, or platoon?
Old No7
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
The Mad Minute was derived from a pre-World War I rapid-fire exercise used by British Army riflemen, using the Lee–Enfield service rifle. The exercise (Practice number 22, Rapid Fire, ‘The Musketry Regulations, Part I, 1909) required the rifleman to fire 15 rounds at a “Second Class Figure” target at 300 yards. The practice was described as; “Lying. Rifle to be loaded and 4 rounds in the magazine before the target appears. Loading to be from the pouch or bandolier by 5 rounds afterwards. One minute allowed”. The practice was only one of the exercises from the annual classification shoot which was used to grade a soldier as a marksman, first-class or second-class shot, depending on the scores he had achieved.
The “Second Class Figure Target”, with 24” and 36” magpie circles. The aiming mark was a 12” x 12” silhouette figure that represented the outline of the head of a man aiming a rifle from a trench.
The first Mad Minute record was set by Sergeant Major Jesse Wallingford in 1908, scoring 36 hits on a 48 inch target at 300 yards
Text and Target pic from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Hey Miller Check the vid again. All of "Blokes" fast shooting was done with 7.62x39. An AK mag will NOT accept 303 British rounds. The Brits must have thought something was wrong with the SMLE No1 (rear Locking lugs) because they came up with the P-14 which has frontal locking lugs like a Mauser's but they retained it in 303 with cock on closing, made sure the bolt knob positioned like a SMLE. The US modified the P-14 design to accept 30-06 and kept all of the features of the P-14 including its excellent safety.
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
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- J Miller
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Hey Rumson,
No kidding. check his other videos and you'll find the history of that goofy Enfield in another one.
That is why I put in another video of a Canadian firing a full size 303 Brit caliber Enfield in the same exact manner.
It wasn't the caliber that mattered,it was the design features.
I doubt that the Enfields designers were worried in the least about the rear lock up. The P 14s were purchased as a supplement to their Enfields when they needed more rifles.
And I think you missed the point of my original post and the video completely.
Joe
No kidding. check his other videos and you'll find the history of that goofy Enfield in another one.
That is why I put in another video of a Canadian firing a full size 303 Brit caliber Enfield in the same exact manner.
It wasn't the caliber that mattered,it was the design features.
I doubt that the Enfields designers were worried in the least about the rear lock up. The P 14s were purchased as a supplement to their Enfields when they needed more rifles.
And I think you missed the point of my original post and the video completely.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Joe, I am glad you liked the video's. Heal well.
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
No I didn’t miss the point … I have known about the rapid fire method you just found out about for years, and always have thought it very cool and have practiced it some. The Brits were always looking to improve their rifles and make them soldier proof. The No.4 rifle was created as a war time expedient that shortened build time. If you ever get your hands on a No.1 of any mark you will find they have the smoothest working actions of all. The point you’ve missed is the Brits wanted more accuracy out of their rifles and continued to improve them in some way until the end. Happy accident for us Enfield lovers that there are so many for us to play with. I currently have one of these.
1916 BSA converted to .22 LR single shot. I've had like new Australian Enfields, New in the wrap No.4 Mk IVs Savage Made No.4s Indian 308s ..... Anyway CheeriO You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
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- J Miller
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Ben, we aren't even on the same page. You changed the subject and I didn't follow. All I was talking about was the rapid fire method and the features of the Enfields that made it easier. Not design improvements, or any thing else.
Joe
Joe
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
The Brits shoot fast, then stop for a spot of tea, the it's back to shooting again. It's a civilized thing.
Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Enfield...my favorite military rifle... :)
- Carlsen Highway
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
It's not an Enfield. It's a Lee-Enfield.
I beg to differ with the chap in the video. The Lee-Enfield .303 (An "Enfeild' is a muzzeloading rifle) was never used firing with the middle finger during the mad minute. (Or at any other time)
That whole thing I never heard of until I got the internet.
They never taught it in the military, and it wasnt used when they set any of the records for aimed rapid fire on targets at 300 yards. If they saw you doing that in the army either on the Somme or when Sargent Snoxall was setting his record in the 1920's they would have kicked you
Over here they used to get cadets to do it from High School in order to qualify, used to shoot 15 rounds in 30 seconds. (One reload) If you try it you will find it not too difficult. You dont need any special tricks with teh middle finger to explain why a .303 is fast.
I have talked to vets who were in Malaya with the .303 and trying to shoot their rifles fast to make the enemy think they had semi autos, and they still didnt use their darn middle finger. I wish people would stop talking about it as if it really happened instead of being an idea some guy thought up in 2002 on an internet forum.
I beg to differ with the chap in the video. The Lee-Enfield .303 (An "Enfeild' is a muzzeloading rifle) was never used firing with the middle finger during the mad minute. (Or at any other time)
That whole thing I never heard of until I got the internet.
They never taught it in the military, and it wasnt used when they set any of the records for aimed rapid fire on targets at 300 yards. If they saw you doing that in the army either on the Somme or when Sargent Snoxall was setting his record in the 1920's they would have kicked you
Over here they used to get cadets to do it from High School in order to qualify, used to shoot 15 rounds in 30 seconds. (One reload) If you try it you will find it not too difficult. You dont need any special tricks with teh middle finger to explain why a .303 is fast.
I have talked to vets who were in Malaya with the .303 and trying to shoot their rifles fast to make the enemy think they had semi autos, and they still didnt use their darn middle finger. I wish people would stop talking about it as if it really happened instead of being an idea some guy thought up in 2002 on an internet forum.
Last edited by Carlsen Highway on Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rapid fire with Brit Enfields
Real cool. But our old K31 is also very fast and much more accurate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjAn_HUFNws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vme90gayUzc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqwG2caxNo8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vme90gayUzc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqwG2caxNo8