Winchester 94 feeding problem

[cujo7240]

I have a 1923 Winchester 94 in 38-55 that is having intermittent ammo feeding issues with both Factory and hand loads. The ammo feeds just fine thru the loading gate into the magazine tube and when I open the lever the round feeds onto the lifter OK and as I start to close the lever the round begins to enter the chamber, but the rim gets stuck under guide rails just behind the rim guide slots on the guide rails. This issue seems to happen more with my reloads. My reloads consist of Barnes 255gn lead tipped jacked bullets (0.377") std length Starline 38-55 Brass and the bullets are seated to the middle of the cannelure. The OAL of my hand loads are 2.491", I don't have the OAL of the factory rounds right now (1970's vintage I believe, box of 20 was $3.50 at the time) , but they were about 0.060" longer and the bullet was also a lead tipped copper jacketed bullet, but the lead tip was twice broad as the Barnes bullets I'm using now. I just took this rifles action apart and cleaned and lubed it for the first time in about 50 years and this didn't fix this issue, but it was definitely worth the effort. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

cujo7240

[Chuck 100 yd]

Welcome to the forum ! There will be help comming along soon , I am sure.

[Griff]

and Welcome to THE Forum. Did you tighten the guide rails while it was apart? Did you put them back in correctly, there is a left & right. They should be angled forward from the bottom. Most importantly, did it feed these before you dis- & reassembled it?

[GunnyMack]

Are the rims the correct diameter?
and WELCOME !

[Pete44ru]

Did you tighten the guide rails while it was apart ?

Did you put them back in correctly, there is a left & right.

They should be angled forward from the bottom.

Most importantly, did it feed these before you dis- & reassembled it ?

Truer words have never been spoken- AND, welcome to the fire, cujo !


.

[cujo7240]

I never removed the guide rails, but I try to see if they were loose at all, but they appear to be quite tight. The case rims do fit through the guide slots, but it looks like the round gets hung up before they reach the guide slots. The nose of the round is in the chamber opening and the rim appears wedged just behind the guide slots under the guide rails. This doesn't happen all the time, since sometime the round chambers, whether factory or handload, but it does appear to happen more with my handloads. I really don't have a long history with this gun, since I only recently acquired it and I haven't even shot it yet. Is there a preferred OAL that a 38-55 Winchester 94 likes to chamber, I really haven't played around with that too much yet, I just seated the Barnes 255gn bullets to the middle of the cannelure as a first attempt. What sort of tool does one use to check the tightness of the guide rail screws? Some sort of right angle screw driver? Like I said I never touched them, but they seem firmly in place and the screws seem to be fully seated. Thanks.

That's for the welcome wishes,

Cujo7240

[Pete44ru]

.

Does your choice of boolits have a square shoulder that might be catching on the edge of the chamber's rear opening ?


.

[Tycer]

The screw heads are on the outside of the gun.
Tat bullet combo should be 2.47 oal well short of the 2.55.
Does it matter how fast you cycle the gun? Does it work worse or better if you cycle the gun quickly and firmly?

[Griff]

The screw heads are on the outside of the gun.
Tat bullet combo should be 2.47 oal well short of the 2.55.
Does it matter how fast you cycle the gun? Does it work worse or better if you cycle the gun quickly and firmly?

On a '23 the screw heads are inside. Only the post '64 have them on the outside. Specs I have show the loaded length should be 2.51 or less. But... depending on nose design much longer bullets can be loaded, tho' some may have to singly loaded thru the top. Factory rounds should cycle fine, but... Just out of curiosity, what is the length of your brass?

Cycling speed can affect the movement. Movement should be brisk with no hesitation.

[J Miller]

The screw heads are on the outside of the gun.
Tat bullet combo should be 2.47 oal well short of the 2.55.
Does it matter how fast you cycle the gun? Does it work worse or better if you cycle the gun quickly and firmly?

On a '23 the screw heads are inside. Only the post '64 have them on the outside. Specs I have show the loaded length should be 2.51 or less. But... depending on nose design much longer bullets can be loaded, tho' some may have to singly loaded thru the top. Factory rounds should cycle fine, but... Just out of curiosity, what is the length of your brass?

Cycling speed can affect the movement. Movement should be brisk with no hesitation.

To add just a wee bit to what Griff said; one brisk movement down to stop, then one brisk movement back up to closed.
Don't stop the lever mid travel, don't ratchet it, and ... don't short stroke it.

I don't say this to insult experienced lever gun shooters, but I've seen many folks do these things, and I've even done them myself ... . So I thought it was worth saying.

Joe

[cujo7240]

The brass I'm using is new Starline 38-55 brass that they state has a length of 2.080" (stated range from Starline: 2.076 - 2.082). I haven't actually measure them myself, but will do so when I get home. The Lyman 49th edition manual (page 281) states the 38-55 OAL for the Barnes 255gn bullet I'm using as 2.480" with a case Trim-to length of 2.075". My rounds loaded to the middle of the cannelure have an OAL of 2.491". Lyman also mentions that originally the 38-55 Cases were 2.129" in length, but they were later established at 2.085" by SAAMI. Starline also sells a longer version of the 38-55 case that is 2.125" in length.
I measured the vintage Western factory ammo I have and the OAL measures 2.551" and a vintage Imperial factory ammo measures 2.531", both of these are soft point jacketed bullets as well.
I will experiment with the lever speed during reload to see if that helps, since I did slow down the lever motion, so I could see where the rounds were hanging up.

This is the Barnes 255gn bullet I'm using:
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/125763 ... -box-of-50

[Griff]

I'm thinking those Barnes bullets should go thru a Winchester 94 like popcorn thru a goose. When you took the gun apart, did you remove the carrier (lifter to some folks)? Did you remove the link and carrier spring? Pics would help...

When you say the bullet is stopping the cartridge from getting fully chambered, is the bullet hitting the top of the chamber or is the case getting hung up at the bottom of the chamber mouth? The difference is usually carrier height. Does the carrier "snap" to either the up or down position with the action open with authority? The carrier needs to be at approximately 1/16" below the chamber mouth with in the up position with about twice the amount of clearance between the front of the carrier and the chamber breech. The more clearance (i.e. the shorter your carrier is), the more the front of the carrier needs to be below the breech. Simple geometry... okay, maybe not so simple... But these pictures should help show this relationship.
This is a picture of a post-'64 open action:

(& while it's of a .30-30, the relationship should be about the same as pictured in this pre-'64:


The pre-'64 has the action a little more closed than the picture of the post-'64, as you can barely see the guide slots in it, and more of the bolt is in view... but, the carrier is all the way up in both pics.

[Sixgun]

Although it seldom happens, cartridge guides do break or get lost. (One actually broke on one of my '92's) Years ago someone may have taken your rifle apart and either broke the guides or lost them.

According to one of my books, guides are caliber specific ...4 types.....30-30 only.......25-35 only........38-55 only......and 32 Spl./32-40. Maybe someone replaced them with a more common caliber like the 30-30 as 38-55's are not exactly all over the place. The books goes on to say that feeding will be erratic if cartridge guides are changed with other calibers not meant for the gun......

Or maybe the gun used to be a 30-30 and someone put on a 38-55 barrel. -----6

[Chuck 100 yd]

What Six said +1. The cartridge guides may just be the wrong ones altogether. I would try cycling some .30-30's through it to see how they feed. Just don't shoot them in it or find some dummys to try.

[Griff]

Actually, sometime in the 19-teens Winchester changed and only separate guides were for the 25-35, everything else used the same sets... But, knowing how they assembled these guns, later guns could always have the earlier parts in them. I have a early parts listing and will double check when I get home on Friday.

[cujo7240]

The round gets stuck with the tip of the bullet inside the chamber opening and it appears like the tip may be touching the cylinder wall at the top, mean while at the other end of round the rim is under the guide rails just behind the guide slots. The carrier does snap up with authority as you say when closing the lever. I'll try to upload some pics once I get a chance are there any directions available as to how to upload pictures to this forum? Thanks

cujo7240

[Griff]

I have a 1923 Winchester 94 in 38-55 that is having intermittent ammo feeding issues...

Herein lies the problem. There can only be two causes of this. 1 - the ammo differs in dimension; or, 2- the gun does not operate in the same fashion during every cycle of the action.

IMO, 1st determine IF... all the ammo is dimensionally identical, if one cartridge works, they all should work. Measure them ALL. Compare them to the upper dimension in the upper pic:

Segregate them into groups. 1st by OAL. Then attempt to cycle each group thru the action. Identify if size does matter. If it does, Make them all to the length that feeds. Problem solved. If not, and it seems that there are misfeeds "across the board", check rim diameters. If that's not conclusive, the check the case diameter where it rests on the nose of the carrier. You may go thru this inspection and find NO dimensional anomalies.

In which case, it's something inside the gun, something that is NOT reacting to the cycling of the lever the same way each & every time. In my mind the 1st things to check are the carrier spring, is it installed correctly, allowing it to function properly? It should be what returns the carrier to the down position. With the action open, push down on the carrier, you'll notice the bolt comes forward a little, and then the spring "snapping" the carrier to its full down position. The 2nd item is the carrier and its screws. Look for elongated holes & worn "pins" on the end of the carrier screws. Either will allow the lever to push up the rear of the carrier.

[cujo7240]

Griff, thanks for the cartridge and chamber spec diagrams. The cartridge diagram looks to be pre-SAAMI era, since it states the case length to be 2.1295" and the current SAAMI length for 38-55 cases is 2.085". They state the Max OAL to be 2.550", but I wish they would have gave the minimum OAL as well, since I'm starting to believe my 2.491" OAL handloads maybe partly the cause of feeding issues. Tonight I cycled the action briskly with factory ammo in the magazine and they all fed just fine thru the rifle. I wasn't able to try the same thing with the handloads yet, since I left the three rounds I made at work today, so I will have to try the brisk lever action technique on them tomorrow. I think I may have been cycling the action a little too slowly, since I was doing this in my loading room upstairs in my house with live ammo and my wife would kill me if blew hole in our house!
I have two different Marlin leverguns and they cycle really smooth and load the ammo even when going in slow motion.
I still think I may need to load my hand loads to a longer OAL than the 2.491" that I choose to use, Since it put the bullet to the middle of the cannelure. Is it OK to seat the bullet outside of the cannelure as long as I crimp it with a Lee Factory Crimp die to achieve an OAL closer to the factory ammo OAL (2.531" and 2.551")that I found works in my rifle? Thanks again everyone for the help you've been giving me with this issue.

cujo7240

[Griff]

Loading to a longer OAL will depend on the ogive of the bullet. If it's a "fat" bullet with a large meplat, it may exacerbate the feeding issues. Shorter, within reason, is generally better the fatter the bullet. That Barnes didn't appear to be what I'd call a fat bullet, but... photos without something to scale it by is iffy.

[cujo7240]

The meplat on the Barnes 255gn 38-55 is indeed smaller and the bullet ogive is slimmer than the factory rounds I have that seem to chamber well now that I'm cycling the action faster. I will try the faster lever action tonight on the hand loads I made to see if this improves the intermittent feeding issues I was experiencing. I'm going to be pretty embarrassed if the whole feeding problem was due to operator error. This is my first Winchester rifle and I've only had this Model 94 in my possession 2 weeks now, so it's been fun learning experience for me so far. Thanks.

cujo7240

[FWiedner]

... and my wife would kill me if blew hole in our house!
cujo7240

Women...

[cujo7240]

... and my wife would kill me if blew hole in our house!
cujo7240

Women...




I know, right.

[Malamute]

I was going to ask if the nose of the bullets that didn't feed were fatter than the ones that did feed, but that's been answered.

I'll be the odd man out I guess. I disagree that they have to be operated briskly. Some guns may not work if they aren't, but I don't think that's proper operation. I think if they HAVE to be operated briskly to work, something is wrong. All of mine function perfectly when operated slowly. I do it often for several reasons.

[cujo7240]

I was going to ask if the nose of the bullets that didn't feed were fatter than the ones that did feed, but that's been answered.

I'll be the odd man out I guess. I disagree that they have to be operated briskly. Some guns may not work if they aren't, but I don't think that's proper operation. I think if they HAVE to be operated briskly to work, something is wrong. All of mine function perfectly when operated slowly. I do it often for several reasons.

Malamute, are any of rifles that you speak of pre-1968 like mine (1923)? and by "briskly" I mean a very deliberate down stroke followed by a very deliberate up stroke.

Anyone here load their own ammo for a Winchester model 94 in 38-55? and if so, is there a preferred OAL that your gun prefers? Also, if you've been following this thread, you now know that there are two different length 38-55 cases available (2.080" and 2.125") for reloading. My vintage factory ammo is loaded in the longer cases, but most likely any loaded ammo you buy will most likely come in the shorter SAAMI spec cases. So, for those reloading for the 38-55 do you tend to use the longer or shorter 38-55 cases? I bought the shorter SAAMI length cases from Starline, but I'm now starting to think I should have bought the longer ones.

[Griff]

I was going to ask if the nose of the bullets that didn't feed were fatter than the ones that did feed, but that's been answered.

I'll be the odd man out I guess. I disagree that they have to be operated briskly. Some guns may not work if they aren't, but I don't think that's proper operation. I think if they HAVE to be operated briskly to work, something is wrong. All of mine function perfectly when operated slowly. I do it often for several reasons.

None of mine do... but ALL of mine are 30-30s!!! It's not so much the speed with which you cycle them, it's the smoothness. IME, it's easier to learn that smoothness when cycling the action rather quickly.

[OldWin]

I have several 38-55's, all old, and haven't had any feeding issues.
While most levers require some cycling "procedure", the 94 is usually pretty good in this respect.
I noticed above you said the carrier/lifter isn't snapping up with authority. It should snap quickly and with a loud snap. It could be restricted by crud, a burr, or have a worn carrier spring, although this isn't the usual feed problem caused by this. It may be coming up far enough to get the bullet nose in the chamber, but not get the angle right for the guides.
It may have been like this from the factory, somebody just lived with it. What is the overall condition of the rifle?

[cujo7240]

Well I brought my hand loads home from work and tried the quick cycling method on them and they chambered every time, but not quite as smooth as the factory rounds did last night. Some felt like the extractor hook wasn't over the rim of the case as the round was going in and it had to snap over the rim at the end of the stroke as the bolt was closing, but it closed every time.

My carrier/lifter does snap up with authority, I don't recall saying it didn't. I did take to rifle apart for a good cleaning, so it no longer gummed up with old oil and grease and I lightly oiled all the internal metal parts when I had it apart. I didn't take the bolt apart, since the firing pin seemed to slide back and forth freely. I wasn't really looking for any burrs during this process, since I was more concerned about getting the rifle back together properly, because this was the first time I had ever taken a Winchester 94 apart.

cujo7240

[OldWin]

Whoops, my mistake. I thought I read that. This is what happens when you work nights.
Glad you see some improvement with just a cycling change. That is definitely the easiest fix.

[cujo7240]

What is the overall condition of the rifle?

The wood is in pretty decent shape, but there's next to no blueing left on the receiver except for the loading gate and some on the lever. The barrel is still completely blued, the receiver internals all seem to be in good shape since they were all encased in petrified oil and grease after sitting unused for more than 50 years I'm guessing. Did all these pre-64 model 94's come blued from the factory? I was surprised that none of the original blueing was left on the receiver and I'm wondering is one of the previous owners may have buffed the blueing off some where along the way.

[Sixgun]

Cujo ....Winchesters made in the twenties all seem that their bluing flakes off. I have a SRC made in 21 and another 32-40 rifle made in 21 that are like new guns but with spotty receiver bluing with the SRC with almost no blue, but the rest of the gun looks like it was made yesterday. You can tell how much a gun was used by looking at the parts of the receiver that move and then run your fingers on the edge. There are lots of other tell tale signs but in the end, like Old Win. says, they all seem to works just fine no matter how much use they have.

Like Malamute says, the gun should work perfectly even when going slow. As for case length, that should not matter as I've been using 30-30 brass for 38-55's for 40+ years in many 38-55's and this brass comes up short. I seat the bullet to COL. ---6

[Malamute]

Yes, most of the ones I have or have had were pre-64 and some pre-war.

Griff, yes, most of mine have been 30-30 also, though one had a Saskatchewan Commemorative 38-55 carbine barrel. It didn't seem finicky about loads, but I didn't shoot it much. Another was an early 1900s receiver with custom 38-55 barrel. I haven't shot it, it was a long term project that Ive been unable to complete for various reasons. It also functioned fine when worked slowly with the handful of various handloads and few factory loads I had.

Most of the pre-war guns Ive had or seen had thin or non-existent bluing on the receivers. Ive been told it had to do with how the forged receivers took the bluing of the day. They also all seem to have what looks like scratches in the receivers, and I was also told that had something to do with the forging process of the older guns and metal aging/oxidizing over time. Even some of the literally brand new old guns in the Winchester museum show some evidence of it if you look closely.

I believe all the rounds will not have the extractor snapped over the rim until its fully chambered. The spring loaded ejector will be pushing the cartridge and so far as I can tell, no rounds have the extractor snapped over the rim until the bolt is fully closed. That spring loaded ejector is also, I believe, one reason we commonly see primers slightly protruding on 94s, even with in spec guns and ammo. Its firmly pushing every shell forward when fired. Shell rims and guns have a range of acceptable sizes, not an exact number. Ammo is made to work in most guns without a problem, so tends to be a bit on the loose side if tolerance (measure some rims and see, when discussing checking headspace with shells and shims etc, I rarely ever see anyone taking the actual, rather than supposed book spec for rim thickness), same for headspace in guns. Its a range of size that's acceptable. Combine the tolerance in both and you can get noticeable primer protrusion, and everything is still in spec. Primer protrusion is a sign of low pressure in the modern cartridge world. Most higher pressure loads re-seat the primer after full pressure is built up.