9MM Defensive loads

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RustyJr
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9MM Defensive loads

Post by RustyJr »

I currently carry a Glock 19 loaded with Hornady Custom 147 grain XTP when off duty. While I prefer heavy for caliber loads, I recently was reading a book by Massad Ayoob in which he mentioned unreliable expansion and over penetration issues with certain 147 grain 9mm loads. For those that carry a 9MM what do you typically carry for a defensive load and what has been your experience with the heavier 9MM loads?

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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Ysabel Kid »

I've been carrying Hornady Critical Defense rounds in mine, but they are 115-grains. Of late though I discovered Winchester "Defend" 9mm rounds at Wally-world. They sell a 50-count box marked "Train" in addition to the 20 (or 25) round "Defend" boxes. Same bullet weight and profile, and I've tested them and the point of impact is the same.

These are relatively inexpensive to boot, meaning you can afford to practice with them.

Now, here's the part I really like. They come in 147-grain hollow-points. I like the higher mass projectiles. These are also advertised as "low recoil" (not that this is an issue with 9mm), but they have been 100% reliable in my guns. You can just barely tell they are slightly less recoiling than other 9mm rounds.

I haven't seen data on the expansion characteristics yet. However, my big worry is over-penetration, so these should be really good in that regard (not going through and through and endangering innocent people behind the target).
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Ray »

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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by jdad »

150gr HST and 124 Gold Dot. The HST are less snappy.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by JB »

Just about everything you read says the best performing 9mm loads are the hot 115 grains. I'm currently using Corbon 155 grain +p in my Glocks.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

124 gr. XTP @ 1160 fps. 100 % reliable function,accurate in all of my Glock,Springfield and Rugers.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by wolfdog »

I was partial to Corbon 115p+P when I was toting a 9 all the time. Used it put down some hogs, worked very well.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by J35 »

Ysabel Kid wrote:I've been carrying Hornady Critical Defense rounds in mine, but they are 115-grains. Of late though I discovered Winchester "Defend" 9mm rounds at Wally-world. They sell a 50-count box marked "Train" in addition to the 20 (or 25) round "Defend" boxes. Same bullet weight and profile, and I've tested them and the point of impact is the same.

These are relatively inexpensive to boot, meaning you can afford to practice with them.

Now, here's the part I really like. They come in 147-grain hollow-points. I like the higher mass projectiles. These are also advertised as "low recoil" (not that this is an issue with 9mm), but they have been 100% reliable in my guns. You can just barely tell they are slightly less recoiling than other 9mm rounds.

I haven't seen data on the expansion characteristics yet. However, my big worry is over-penetration, so these should be really good in that regard (not going through and through and endangering innocent people behind the target).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsVe1fxXLE

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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Paladin »

124 Gr +P Gold Dot or Federal HST. In the MP-5 they run GREAT and use the 147s in both brands or Underwood in all weights.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Malamute »

Ray wrote: was slow to choose 147 gr. back when they were the bee's knees until i realized that they nearly duplicated the so called fbi load .38 special that i routinely carried at the time but with 15 shots......

i often carry a magazine full of xtp 147s with either a liberty civil defense or a cordon/glaser powr'ball in the chamber.....

i ignore the adherents to the gelatin video religion who whine and whimper about old school, outdated hollowpoint technology that clogs with fabric and fails to expand thus over penetrating....i like to watch gelatin bullet testing videos but understand that people ain't made out of jello.....

in real life, even handgun bullets that are thought to be too penetrating from gelatin tests are often found trapped in the off-side clothing.....human skin is easy to puncture from the outside but the off-side skin is very elastic and stretches greatly and is resistant to puncture from the inside-out.....
In real life the people that do actual quality testing, such as the people involved with the Army Wound Ballistics Research Laboratory, and those involved with the International Wound Ballistics Association, instead of youtube hobbyists, have found that despite people not being made of ballistic gel, that the observed results of quality gel testing, (which should include the calibration of the BB test shot, and I don't believe clear gel is considered a valid, comparable medium, though that may have changed) closely correlate to actual shootings with the same ammo. The old school hollow points clogging with clothing and not expanding properly and reliably is a real thing. The ammo companies still make and sell some of it because people still buy it, not because its as good as the newer generation ammo.

One of the people involved with both wound ballistics organizations mentioned above has written up some info about ammo that is available and in use, and meets the current parameters for service pistol ammo for LE and defensive use. Theres also some info about shotgun loads and rifle loads.

https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by tman »

Any 147grn +P FMJ and HP's.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Richardx »

What Tman said, my Hi-power loves them 147's
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Tycer »

9BPLE Federal because it's still only $.50 a round and it has shot well for me magazine after magazine for several years. It has a good reputation in service as stopping threats.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by OldWin »

I use 115 Critical Defense in my Glock 19.

Word is, the 124 Federal HST is a really good load, but I haven't tried them.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by 1894cfan »

+2 on 124 GoldDots, I use the short barrel stuff in my 43.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by 1894c »

I carry what my LE Agency carries -- Gold Dot 124gr +P HP, same round that NYPD carries... :)
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by guido4198 »

Federal 124 HST runs perfectly in my Glock, Kahr and Browning HP.
On a related note, I've always been a 45acp kind of guy. The introduction of really decent 9mm defensive ammunition supported by good "field results" in recent years has given me the confidence to carry a small 9mm handgun that is comfortable enough, even in light street clothes, to have it on me a lot more often than any of the 45's in my collection.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Old Ironsights »

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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by walks with gun »

I'm thinking most hollow point technology is my better than when that article was written, I wouldn't loose much sleep over it. It sounds like it might be a good time to start saving gallon milk jugs and try your own penetration tests. Might not be the most scientific test, but works as well as most. And fun too. Living in a rural area, where it's more likely to have to use a gun on a critter, I prefer the heavier bullets in any caliber.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Bulldog »

I carry a handload of 124 gr. Hornady XTP, with a max change of Blue Dot. Actual chronographed speed from my 92 is 1305 fps. That's right up there with the 357 Sig. I've conducted numerous tests with ballistic gel and XTP bullets of various calibers, and they are always reliable expanders, and retain weight through a wide velocity range.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by JohndeFresno »

For a winning combination of power / portability / concealment / accuracy / controllability / penetration and trauma, for me it is this bullet, hands down:
Federal HST 9mm 147gr. (my daily carry in a S&W Shield, replaces my .45 ACP 240 gr. HST in a 1911 Series 70)

One I would consider, were it not for my insistence on a normal pressure round for weapon longevity:
Federal HST 9mm +P 147 gr.

No doubt in my mind. If there is an equal or better defensive bullet than this 147 grain messenger, the difference is probably negligible.

Here is why.
Generally:
For several years, there has been test data available online - and it still is - from two or more law enforcement symposiums. Several law enforcement agencies participated in Washington State and I think Arizona, to name two. Factory reps offered their best defensive handgun rounds, including the much touted FBI darling, the Speer Gold Dot.

This is important: The members of various police agencies conducted the live testing, NOT the factory reps who were there. So there were no special test barrels or other fol-de-rol to enhance the performance of the various factory ammo offerings.

If you download and study the tests, you will see that the HST round has much less tendency to plug up than even the Gold Dot, while penetrating various media and still presenting impressive and consistent expansion. Trick non-penetrating rounds have their niche for some folks, but my observation is that one never knows when he/she will have to defend self or family, and won't have time to selectively load specialized ammo. And I want that first shot, or any shot to count.

So I am not enamored by rounds that act like shotgun shells but won't penetrate walls and such. I want a round that you know will consistently penetrate in any situation. My preferred round can perhaps penetrate dangerously in a crowded area unless the shooter is very responsible and considers the backdrop. Bullets by their intended usage are dangerous.

Specifically:
1) After some serious range time with the S&W Shield, even with its short barrel, the 147 grain HST round is pleasant to shoot and does not whip up like the lighter bullets, which means quick second shots and tighter groups for me.

2) The gun and ammo combination are so tiny that I can carry this combination all day in an ankle holster - totally concealed, even with a tucked in shirt or when I bend over to do various chores. I forget it is there, except (honestly) that you feel the slight imbalance from the added weight of the gun as you walk. If your agenda calls for carrying a hidden gun in various gatherings, this is a great option. Sadly, these days, church comes to mind.

3) The advancement in propellants, metallurgy, and bullet design have made this little 9mm round into a serious defensive caliber. For years, I had nothing but disdain for the "9" versus my beloved "45" and "40's." Not any more.

4) Gun ergonomics, too - I am continuously surprised at how well I can shoot that little Shield!

Here is an eye opener - YouTube gun tests and evaluation by a non-partisan tester going by the handle of "Ammo Quest." Check out the penetration, expansion, etc. IF you look at his other web postings, you will find that he went through many brands and types of ammo in search of the best defensive round possible, from a concealable handgun, and not some 6 1/2 barreled cannon. Check out one or two others and you will see that he gives a fair evaluation, but states why a particular round could be better.

Not so with the two HST rounds described below - he was clearly surprised at their effectiveness, as you will see on the videos.

And if Jell-0 type media does not impress you, please check out the firearms seminar that I mentioned. Google "Pierce County Wound Ballistic Workshop." There is a reason that, for quite a while, HST ammo was not supposed to be sold to anybody except law enforcement. And for a while, the only place I could find it was at Streicher's online. I still buy them there.

Walks with Gun, check these two YouTube videos - it might save you some time!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3VfWkWMzOI
(My daily carry - HST 147 gr 9mm standard pressure - plenty of power for me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM2AJm9VhYM
(Want more? Here is the +P 147 grain version)

If you can no longer find the Pierce County Workshop ammo tests online, you can download it from a link from my site, below.

HST Wound Ballistic Workshop in Pierce County, Washington -
If I remember correctly, I saved this as a searchable PDF file -
https://app.box.com/s/j7nm91l7m7dq9jhrfjz495r3r7zejqdp

Yes, Griff - I have gone totally over to the Dark Side, now. I still love my .45 "autos" and .45 Colt. But given the activities around us these days, my daily carry is now the little "9."
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by jdad »

Actually the 150gr HST was designed for the Shield, P938, XD-S, etc.

https://www.federalpremium.com/ammuniti ... st/p9hst5s
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by walks with gun »

I'm going to try Hornady 124gr XTP's with a medium charge of Unique, probably 4.7 grs. No selection of bullets in the local stores so I'll try building a load for my lady friends Taurus PT111 G2.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by JohndeFresno »

jdad wrote:Actually the 150gr HST was designed for the Shield, P938, XD-S, etc.

https://www.federalpremium.com/ammuniti ... st/p9hst5s
Yes. But another online tester, also using ballistic gel at the proper temperature with a cover of denim - per one of the tests suggested by the FBI - discovered that their penetration is all over the place. That is: Unpredictable.

I don't have the site in front of me, but he suggested just using the standard 147 gr HST in HIS video!
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by JohndeFresno »

walks with gun wrote:I'm going to try Hornady 124gr XTP's with a medium charge of Unique, probably 4.7 grs. No selection of bullets in the local stores so I'll try building a load for my lady friends Taurus PT111 G2.
I like the SilverTip for .44 Special/Mag, having tested the round in water, and with fiberboard in a graduated box. That big round seems to work very well with that bullet, and at relatively mild velocities. But there is always a possibility of having to shoot through a barrier in a real bad situation. So...

I load XTP's for "urban defense" designated ammo in .32 ACP, .357 125gr., .44 Mag, .45 ACP, and 9mm. HST's are for daily carry with the .45's and 9mm handgun. However, they are expensive. So I have also loaded "several" rounds with the XTP's for emergency storage in the event that things get even more "interesting" in my state. Never mind where that storage is - away from prying eyes.

For handloads, it seems to me that the XTP's are the best jacketed defense handload bullets when you consider their ability to expand over a wide range of velocities* ; and their reputation for accuracy and penetration. Anyway, that's me.

Walks with Gun, I am guessing that you checked the Hornady book, since Hornady 10th Ed. Pg. 867 shows:
Unique, in a S&W 4" bbl. Model 39, Win WSP Primer
4.7 gr. - 1050fps, 5.0 MAX 1100fps (COAL 1.060") for your bullet. Sounds like a reasonably safe, good load to me.

* You can see velocity vs. expansion charts for each XTP bullet in Hornady's reloading manuals and at the Hornady website.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Ysabel Kid »

J35 wrote:
Ysabel Kid wrote:I've been carrying Hornady Critical Defense rounds in mine, but they are 115-grains. Of late though I discovered Winchester "Defend" 9mm rounds at Wally-world. They sell a 50-count box marked "Train" in addition to the 20 (or 25) round "Defend" boxes. Same bullet weight and profile, and I've tested them and the point of impact is the same.

These are relatively inexpensive to boot, meaning you can afford to practice with them.

Now, here's the part I really like. They come in 147-grain hollow-points. I like the higher mass projectiles. These are also advertised as "low recoil" (not that this is an issue with 9mm), but they have been 100% reliable in my guns. You can just barely tell they are slightly less recoiling than other 9mm rounds.

I haven't seen data on the expansion characteristics yet. However, my big worry is over-penetration, so these should be really good in that regard (not going through and through and endangering innocent people behind the target).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsVe1fxXLE

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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by jdad »

JohndeFresno wrote:
jdad wrote:Actually the 150gr HST was designed for the Shield, P938, XD-S, etc.

https://www.federalpremium.com/ammuniti ... st/p9hst5s
Yes. But another online tester, also using ballistic gel at the proper temperature with a cover of denim - per one of the tests suggested by the FBI - discovered that their penetration is all over the place. That is: Unpredictable.

I don't have the site in front of me, but he suggested just using the standard 147 gr HST in HIS video!

From 10-15 feet 147 or 150 grain ain't gonna bounce off. :twisted:

It will get their attention. :wink:
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by JohndeFresno »

J35's suggestion through the link - Winchester 147 Defend HP 9's - is very interesting, given that the same tester (the "Ammo Quest" guy) finally decided that the Winnie round beats even the Federal HST's by a smidgeon.

However -
1) The Ballistic Workshops (cited above) uncovered the HST's ability to penetrate media without plugging up, and
2) Given equal bullet weight, pressure, caliber and general composition penetrates more in gel than the other, that seems to imply that its expansion and performance in tougher media might be different - right? Like bones and such?

Thanks for the link given -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsVe1fxXLE -
...that looks like a great option, too. Meanwhile, the HST looks very good to this shooter.

I believe that either brand, however, is a winner.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Griff »

I defend against 9mm with either 200 grain Speer "Flying Ashtrays" or Winchester Black Talon ammunition. Both in a .45 Auto chambered 1911. But, unless I was using a rifle or shotgun, that's what I defend against just about offensive cartridge others might use... :wink: :P
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by JohndeFresno »

Griff, EXCELLENT rounds.

But for the big .45, you might want to look at the 230 grain HST. Still my home defense handgun.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Bullard4075 »

Griff wrote:I defend against 9mm with either 200 grain Speer "Flying Ashtrays" or Winchester Black Talon ammunition. Both in a .45 Auto chambered 1911. But, unless I was using a rifle or shotgun, that's what I defend against just about offensive cartridge others might use... :wink: :P
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

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I know you guys are talking about "real" 9mm, but my short 9, aka .380, is most likely to put the hurt on a bad guy pretty good. At least slow him down. Yes, I intend to shoot more than once. Yes, when I go to the woods I take a G30S, or 1911 and a long gun.
That little LCP is just SO handy to slip in my vest pocket, and I carry two more 6 round mags....
BTW, standard pressure 230s are most likely one of the quietest rounds you can shoot in the house. I love what little I have left of my ears.... :lol:
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by tman »

9mm handguns are much easier to conceal than a 45. The 45 pacts more power, but with modern tech 9mm loads, is it worth the difference? Would anything shot with it know the difference? Is there really a difference with modern ammo? I can conceal carry a Glock 43 in 90% of the situations where I'd have to leave the .45 at home. Just saying.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by JohndeFresno »

Ray wrote:
BlaineG wrote:I know you guys are talking about "real" 9mm, but my short 9, aka .380, is most likely to put the hurt on a bad guy pretty good. At least slow him down. Yes, I intend to shoot more than once. Yes, when I go to the woods I take a G30S, or 1911 and a long gun.
That little LCP is just SO handy to slip in my vest pocket, and I carry two more 6 round mags....
BTW, standard pressure 230s are most likely one of the quietest rounds you can shoot in the house. I love what little I have left of my ears.... :lol:

ever seen that video of the geezer with his mouse gun thwart the multiple hooded kafirs attempting to hold-up a coffee shop?....he did just fine and i doubt his ammo met the fbi gelatin protocol......probably either embarrassedly inadequately under-penetrative or dangerously irresponsibly over-penetrative......this crew would have censured and chastised him for not using federal hst's :twisted: ........
AGAIN,
AmmoQuest has an answer, based upon his exhaustive testing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

If you have not already settled on your .380 Ammo, you may want to stock up on Precision One. It penetrates per the FBI requirement, even through denim and then gel, and expands reliably. But other brands are also mentioned as very good.

Before I was surprised with the tiny profile of the Smith, I was in fact preparing to purchase a Bersa .380 Firestorm which is legal in California. As mentioned before, this was for some very concealed carry situations. The more common Bersa Thunderer .380 is not "approved" here, thanks to our infamous Dept. of Justice limitations.

I had planned to stock up on Precision One for carry ammo. The video above (for .380 shootists) is worth the view. The .380ACP, like the 9mm Parabellum/Luger, has come a long way in the last few years. Especially since recoil is nil and you can plop several rounds into a small hole very quickly.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by rodeo kid »

I have recently given up my Colt Cobra for carry in favor of a Springfield XDs in 9mm. I am using 105 grain Federal Guard Dog in it. It's fairly warm at 1230fps. In my Browning Hi-Power(only carry it in cooler weather with a jacket) I still have a pretty good supply of Black Talons and that is what I use in the browning.
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by tman »

Ray wrote:
BlaineG wrote:I know you guys are talking about "real" 9mm, but my short 9, aka .380, is most likely to put the hurt on a bad guy pretty good. At least slow him down. Yes, I intend to shoot more than once. Yes, when I go to the woods I take a G30S, or 1911 and a long gun.
That little LCP is just SO handy to slip in my vest pocket, and I carry two more 6 round mags....
BTW, standard pressure 230s are most likely one of the quietest rounds you can shoot in the house. I love what little I have left of my ears.... :lol:

ever seen that video of the geezer with his mouse gun thwart the multiple hooded kafirs attempting to hold-up a coffee shop?....he did just fine and i doubt his ammo met the fbi gelatin protocol......probably either embarrassedly inadequately under-penetrative or dangerously irresponsibly over-penetrative......this crew would have censured and chastised him for not using federal hst's :twisted: ........
I carry a .32 Keltec more than any of the Major caliber guns that I own, cause it's slips in my pocket and it is always there. I have NO doubt that it will save my butt in a bad situation. Always interested in what the best .45,.40,9mm stoppers are, but I don't take it that seriously.
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Blaine
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Re: 9MM Defensive loads

Post by Blaine »

rodeo kid wrote:I have recently given up my Colt Cobra for carry in favor of a Springfield XDs in 9mm. I am using 105 grain Federal Guard Dog in it. It's fairly warm at 1230fps. In my Browning Hi-Power(only carry it in cooler weather with a jacket) I still have a pretty good supply of Black Talons and that is what I use in the browning.
God Bless. PS: The Cobra is not gone, she's resting in the safe with the rest of the Snakes.
Basically a good .380 load.... I "am" giving serious consideration to an LC9 of some flavor....
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