45-70 guide gun capabililties ( Your Comments_

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:18 pm

First I would like to say hello to all of the users of this forum. This is my first post. I have just recently joined as of last night. I have checked out the other sites on the web for some time and I don't usually have alot to say. But since I am a Lever action kind of guy, I have always felt out numbered on the other sites. No matter what kind of advise you try and give some new comer to the Leveraction rifle there are always a large amount of unexperienced folks shooting you down. It is like talking to a drunk person. I have owned and have hunted with a lever action rifle for over 31 years, and have in the last 3 years purchased and have hunted with a 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun. I would like to start a new thread on the capabilities of the 45-70 using Garrett hammerhead ammo.

Savage99 · Post by **Savage99** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:32 pm

With a .45-70 and garret hammerhead loads, your good for anything that walks this planet...If I was using that gun and load I'd start looking for a real sharp knife..

BTW..Welcome..

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:40 pm

Welcome!

I think that sums up the consensus here. ScottT thought the GG was one of THE two guns to have...

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:43 pm

Well Welcome to the site. you won't find a finer group of Christian gentlemen anywhere.

I don't think there anything anywhere that could stand up to those Hammerheads. Myself included.

Way more than anything I need, but to each his own. Our deer here in Fla. are like shooting the neighbor's dog.

Happy Trails and God Bless,
Rusty <><

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:51 pm

Thanks Savage 99, I hunted last year (Deer season) with the Power Shok 300 grain speer Hot-Core SP from Federal got great results. I just recently purchased a box of 540 grain Hammer heads from garrett, I plan to do some test at the range sunday. 4/27/08. I have been clearing some trees on my property, saved a large slice of tree to take to the range. (24"Dim) I would like to see what kind of penetration I get from that ammo.. I plan on posting the results...as soon as possible. I would like to hear from anyone who has used this ammo as well.

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:03 pm

Rusty, That is what my brother said, he once live in Jacksonville, and hear in tennessee some of our deer out at land between the lakes looks just like that (Dogs with antlers). But I did bag a 160lb buck 6 points, two years back in stewart country next to LBL. biggest I have seen in a few years. Last year i kicked up about 15 deer, but only shot 2 . Had two others in my sights but would have had to shoot through brush to take them, so i passed.

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:21 pm

Savage99 wrote:With a .45-70 and garret hammerhead loads, your good for anything that walks this planet...If I was using that gun and load I'd start looking for a real sharp knife..

BTW..Welcome..

+1 and has!

Welcome aboard.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:34 pm

Keep us posted on the penetration results into that chunk of wood. I'm at the other end of the spectrum with my 45-70's (I own three of them). I use a soft cast wad of lead weighing 405 grains and I send it chugging along at speeds of 1,200 to 1,400 fps. Those little bulldozers just about plow through anything.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:38 pm

No answer to your question, but welcome!

I always like to see someone from Clarksville, Tn post on forums. I spent a little over 4 years there, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:42 pm

if u can't kill it with that combination, take up golf.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:05 pm

I wrote Garrett about the hammerhead loads, specifically, the 420gr ones. I have a moose hunt planned for Sept of '09 and want to take my GG along.

I wanted to find out if it would be good to 200yds for moose, and if it would suffice for back up for the Brownies as well.

Their response was "The 420gr +P Hammerhead load will penetrate a brown bear, end to end, from 200 yards, guaranteed."

So, the Garrett's would surely do the job.

He loads these to 1850fps and here's the rest of the stats.

ENERGY: 3200 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 51; MEPLAT: .330"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-CUP; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .287; TRAJECTORY: +3" @ 100-YDS; ZERO @ 150-YDS; -7" @ 200-YDS

At now, $70 per box of 20, they are getting real pricey for regular hunting but for a once in a lifetime deal, or if you walk in the land of big bears, they are worth it for your life.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:18 pm

tman wrote:if u can't kill it with that combination, take up golf.

handirifle wrote:Their response was "The 420gr +P Hammerhead load will penetrate a brown bear, end to end, from 200 yards, guaranteed."

I'd like to see a golf ball do THAT!

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:43 pm

I own and use an 1895GS in a 45-70/457WW Mag and just shipped it up to my Son in Law to use in Alaska for Bear...I would not hesitate to use it on Dangerous Game!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:03 pm

Howdy Tennessee Hayre

I'm interested in your penetration test.

For a comparison here's a test of my 525g cast load running 1475 out of my guide gun, plus my 405g 44 load running just under 900fps out of a 5-1/5" redhawk.

http://levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?t=5617

You know I'm interested in your penetration results. Glad to meet someone else who shoots his firewood!

Here's the same load penetrating a dozen jugs of water:

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:16 pm

Welcome aboard. enjoy the fire. Your GG and garrett ammo have taken just about anything that draws breath. Good luck and keep us posted. You should get penetration exceeding a .458 magnum. Blessings.

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:23 pm

Great info guy's, and thanks for the warm welcome. I know 540 grainers is probley more than i need for deer, but like all my guns, it's nice to have a box of some of the best ammo for each on hand. I think we as hunters and shooter need to know our weapons capabilities at both ends of the scale. Who knows maybe someday I might get lucky and get to make another trip back to alaska. I have always wanted to hunt deer in alaska, and Like all of you I would bet my life on that little guide Gun. I think alot of folks have a problem getting themselfs around the little gun and that makes them feel unconfortable. I am 5' 9'' with long arms and sometimes have that same problem, but that can be overcome by alot of practice. From what i have gathered from talking with other hunter who love their bolt action rifles, they can't except the fact that slow moving heavy bullets penatrate deeper then heavy faster moving bullets. and that a little gun (1895G) that only cost under $500, can do the job that some of the rifles price at over $1000 can do. I always tell them keep an open mind and don't get stuck on just one rifle. Your thoughts!!

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:57 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:Great info guy's, and thanks for the warm welcome. I know 540 grainers is probley more than i need for deer, but like all my guns, it's nice to have a box of some of the best ammo for each on hand. I think we as hunters and shooter need to know our weapons capabilities at both ends of the scale. Who knows maybe someday I might get lucky and get to make another trip back to alaska. I have always wanted to hunt deer in alaska, and Like all of you I would bet my life on that little guide Gun. I think alot of folks have a problem getting themselfs around the little gun and that makes them feel unconfortable. I am 5' 9'' with long arms and sometimes have that same problem, but that can be overcome by alot of practice. From what i have gathered from talking with other hunter who love their bolt action rifles, they can't except the fact that slow moving heavy bullets penatrate deeper then heavy faster moving bullets. and that a little gun (1895G) that only cost under $500, can do the job that some of the rifles price at over $1000 can do. I always tell them keep an open mind and don't get stuck on just one rifle. Your thoughts!!

Welcome to the Fourm! I have hunted Deer with mine in Alaska and it is nice to have in case you run into a Brown Bear with a "tooth ache!" By the way, the 45-70/457WW Mag. does less meat damage than a 30-06, .308, .243, etc. However, mine is a Custom from Wild West Guns in Anchorage, AK. and cost a lot more than $500...I have the Alaska Guide Model, which cost me about $2000.00, but you can easily get by with a stock 1895GS for under $600...

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:01 pm

By the way (Grizz) I thought about selling the wood as firewood.

but the reason for cutting them is during the last wind storm we had here in Clarksville, one of them fell over and took out all the telephone lines, cable, and power lines on the entire east side of the housing area. I had every service crew in Clarksville in my back yard. and a crowd of people who were not very happy. I recall it was during prime time.. I think..

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:07 pm

Thanks JARHEAD, for correcting me. I have been drulling over that custom rifle for sometime but don't have the $$$$ to get one. I heard about another guy who used truck bed liner paint/spray to coat his stock what about that....I know i'm thinking cheap, but thats what poor people like me do!!!!

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:09 pm

About a year or so ago Brian Pearce did a two part story in Rifle magazine about taking a .45-70 and some Garretts to Africa. I don't think he used Hammerheads. IIRC he was using a round they call their Penetrator.

I do remember that he shot all the way through one cape buffalo killing that one and also killed the one behind it. All that with an old .45-70. Who'd have thunk it?

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:09 pm

If the pros use it it is likely effective.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:18 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:Thanks JARHEAD, for correcting me. I have been drulling over that custom rifle for sometime but don't have the $$$$ to get one. I heard about another guy who used truck bed liner paint/spray to coat his stock what about that....I know i'm thinking cheap, but thats what poor people like me do!!!!

Forget about the bedliner! Mine is wood and I hunt in some very wet and nasty weather...no problem. Wood looks nicer too!!....A nice stock 1895GS is a mighty fine rifle...I waited a long time for my Alaska Guide Gun...Dreams do come true...

Best wishes...

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:52 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:I heard about another guy who used truck bed liner paint/spray to coat his stock what about that....I know i'm thinking cheap, but thats what poor people like me do!!!!

That ain't cheap, it's frugal. Or practical.

That's how I refinished the stock on my first FAL. It was beat thanks to the "third world carry" used by some Argie recruits. The bedliner worked and only went away when I swapped some US made stuff onto it for 922r compliance so I could put a few more furrin parts in it.

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:14 pm

This is not a gun question, But how does one go about inserting a picture under the users screen name ????

Paul Jenkins · Post by **Paul Jenkins** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:16 pm

Tennessee Hayre,
I own a .45-70 Shiloh sharps Montana, an '86 Brownining, and an '85 browning BPCR, and I was very surprised to see a friend outshoot all three at 100 yds. with a Marlin Guide Gun. I don't belive all Guide Guns have that capibility, but he shoots one hole groups at 100 yds. all day long.

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:12 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:This is not a gun question, But how does one go about inserting a picture under the users screen name ????

Click on "Profile" at the top of the page you are now looking at.
Go to the bottom of page that you just brought up:
Avatar control panel
follow the instructions for inserting your avitar.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:54 am

Wood looks nice, except when the finish all wears off, it does, or when it gets a huge scratch in it, it does.

I've never seen anything tougher than the bedliner over wood. This stuff is hard, and doesn't project sound like wood or synthetic, it's quieter, more durable, but it is NOT as pretty.

I'm gonna do my 338 in this stuff soon.

marlin shooter · Post by **marlin shooter** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:47 am

Marlin guide gun is a great rifle.Brian Pearce just did a article in the newest rifle magazine talking about it and it's popularity in alaska. It's the real deal. I will probably never get to alaska but I am going to use mine deer hunting this year more then in the past. There's many accessories and sight option's for them also. Marlin made a winner with this 1.
Karl

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:42 pm

Went to the range today and took my 1895G and some 540 grain hammerheads from garrett. I will post my pic's and full results soon. I will tell you that it was a great day. At 50 yards from the bench i punched through an 1/8 " steel plate punching a 3/4" hole in the metal. It continued into the back stop made of red clay and sand stone. Could not find the bullet. Also fired three round through a 10" slice of Oak tree, all bullets passed through into the dirt back stop. Only found one bullet, it hit a big rock 20" inside the backstop. only the nose of the bullet was smashed abit. I can tell you that the new 325 grain Hornady Leverevolution ammo is good stuff, but it dirties up your rifle real fast.

Jeff Quinn · Post by **Jeff Quinn** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:55 pm

Tennessee Hayre,
I am about 30 miles west of you, between Dover and Cumberland City, next to the Cross Creek National Wildlife Refuge. Welcome to the forum.
I have been playing around with my Guide Gun a bit recently. Details here:

http://www.gunblast.com/Leupold-Custom4570.htm

It is not the perfect do-everything big game rifle, but it is pretty darn close. Those hammerheads, and a lot of other bullets, will give complete penetration on most any mammal on Earth.

For the deepest penetration, I also like the Punch bullet, detailed here by the owner of Leverguns.com, the legendary Frank "Paco" Kelly:

http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm

piller · Post by **piller** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:00 pm

When I got that Water Buffalo at the game ranch near Hondo, 86er was backing me up with his '86 in .45-70. Having seen what his rifle does with the loads he gets from Grizzly Cartridges, and having fired it once at a target, I trust the .45-70 completely. You might want to call Grizzly Cartridges and ask about 86er's favorite loads. 86er's first name is Joe, and Elizabeth or Angela will probably answer the phone. Tell them you got the information from leverguns.com, and they will get you set up. Grizzly Cartridges are not cheap, but they are WORTH it.

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:59 pm

hello Jeff, I do most of my deer hunting before the bridge coming from Clarksville into Dover off HWY 79. It's private land off river road. Its owned by a friend. So I guess your pretty close to my part of the woods. I have checked out those punch bullets and they look awsome. and i believe those Grizzly bullets (Piller, is talking about are used by alot of guide's up in alaska. There is so much great ammo for the 45-70 it is hard sometimes to make the selection. I am really pleased with the guide gun and i have the rail system on mine like the one you have ,got it from XS-Sightsystems. I just have not put the ghost ring sites on yet, or the large lever but i plan on doing that when i get some extra cash. Being in the Army for 20 years, I can tell you that we had that peep site on the M16 as you all well know and shot at 300meter target every time we hit the firing range. Great system. I still like having a low power scope on the gun set far forward, but using high mounted scope rings i can still use my iron sights. Works for me.....

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:47 pm

sheesh, the way y'all talk about the 45-70, I'm starting to think my life is incomplete without one! And yet, somehow, I've gotten along all this time!

Still, If I did get one, it'd have to be a marlin. Unless it was a Quigley sharps!
Oh, that's right, his was a 45-110!

Yeah, man, welcome to the campfire!
Love to hear what you come up with on shootin' that wood. I shoot paper circles and pop bottles mostly, unless I can get to the thrift store and pick up a truck load of home appliances

I am just a bit twisted in my own special way.

Make sure and post your pics on the penetration tests, we wanna see the results!

Gryphon

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:52 am

sheesh, the way y'all talk about the 45-70, I'm starting to think my life is incomplete without one!

got that right

wildmanh · Post by **wildmanh** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:23 am

I love hearing about the .45-70 and seeing pictures. I figure if it worked back in the 1800's on big game why can't it work today.

Found a Marlin 1895 .45-70 at a local shop for $500 the other day. Now I'm thinking of going back to see if it's still there......

Heber

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:00 am

Gryphon Black wrote: Unless it was a Quigley sharps!
Oh, that's right, his was a 45-110!

Gryphon

I believe it was a 45-120.

86er · Post by **86er** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:25 pm

"The 420gr +P Hammerhead load will penetrate a brown bear, end to end, from 200 yards, guaranteed."

A bullets gonna do what a bullets gonna do. There is no way to GUARANTEE full penetration. No doubt, the hammerheads are good stuff, but I have shot some bison and water buffalo that did not let the bullet exit.

"When I got that Water Buffalo at the game ranch near Hondo, 86er was backing me up with his '86 in .45-70. Having seen what his rifle does with the loads he gets from Grizzly Cartridges, and having fired it once at a target, I trust the .45-70 completely. You might want to call Grizzly Cartridges and ask about 86er's favorite loads. 86er's first name is Joe, and Elizabeth or Angela will probably answer the phone. Tell them you got the information from leverguns.com, and they will get you set up. Grizzly Cartridges are not cheap, but they are WORTH it."

I happen to rely heavily on the 405 gr KODIAK bullet, that Grizzly Cartridge loads for me. For dangerous game, I follow the Kodiak with PUNCH bullets of the same weight, also loaded by Grizzly Cartridge.
With that combo I have taken Cape Buffalo, Water Buffalo, Watusi, Yak, Bison, Black Bear and Hippo, among other less dangerous critters. The Kodiaks often pass through completely but even when they don't they get the job done with great penetration and expansion. The PUNCH bullet almost always go through, although I have recovered one in a Water Buffalo. It was slightly distorted at the nose.

The 45-70 is awesome and won't let you down if you feed it right. However, don't be tricked into thinking there are magic bullets or that it is a 470 Nitro.

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:09 pm

Here is the first pic of my test conducted on the range this past sunday. Three (Garrett 540 grain Hammer Heads) punched through the 10" slice of tree. The exit holes were the same size as the entry holes. In the back ground you can see where one round blew through an 1/8"steelplate with a 3/4" hole. Shots fired from a range of 50 yards. [img][img]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn59 ... t001-2.jpg[/img][/img]

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:15 pm

Here is a Pic of the exit hole on the steel plate. bullet plowed into the red clay and sandstone back stop making a hole the size of a golf ball. Bullet was not recovered. [img

][/img]

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:18 pm

Sorry. We's a gonna have to arrest you now for possessin ebil armor piercin boolits.

Signed, UR friend, > BATFE

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:19 pm

This is the exit holes of the three hammerheads. [img][img]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn59 ... est002.jpg[/img][/img]

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:51 pm

Old Iron Sights,, as you well know armor is not the same animal as sheet metal and if that were the case all hunters who own a heavy mag rifle with solid bullets would all be up the creek

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:56 pm

Going back to the original question. I think that the Marlin Guide Gun was one of the trully great ideas in the gun industry. Maybe the best we have seen in 30yrs.

Anything from 1 to 200yds is fair game and these guns shoot better than they should.

Garrett ammo is outstanding stuff. I cannot load ammo that works or performs better in my Marlin and I have tried!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:00 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:Old Iron Sights,, as you well know armor is not the same animal as sheet metal and if that were the case all hunters who own a heavy mag rifle with solid bullets would all be up the creek

Shhhh.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:25 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:Here is the first pic of my test conducted on the range this past sunday. Three (Garrett 540 grain Hammer Heads) punched through the 10" slice of tree. The exit holes were the same size as the entry holes. In the back ground you can see where one round blew through an 1/8"steelplate with a 3/4" hole. Shots fired from a range of 50 yards. [img][img]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn59 ... t001-2.jpg[/img][/img]

Cool, but I wouldn't have leaned that plate up there on your vehicle like that - no tellin' where those other two shots went. Probably the differential or transmission, most likely, since them bullets always seem to go for the 'vitals.'

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:31 pm

AJMD429, you have a point !!But it is a Chevy solid like a rock!

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:09 pm

I have a question,

While at the range with my 1895G, I loaded three rounds in the mag tube, (540 grain Hammerheads) chambered the first round everything worked fine and fired, then lowered the lever to cycle a new round and it would jam. I had to take a screw driver and assist the round out of the mag tube then pulled the lever up and all was fine. This happened several times does this sound like a week spring in the magazine. I never had this problem before when i used Federal 300 grainers.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:36 pm

Check your COAL after firing #1 and/or #2... I'll bet you are seeing a little crimp-jump in subsequent loads...

Not somthing you want to happen when it binds up your gun.... I learned that lesson with me FA Casull...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:01 pm

Tennessee,

I would be shocked, shocked I tell you if the hammerheads jumped crimp.

Some Marlins will feed as slow as you can go, some won't.

I suspect that you might not be operating the lever "with authority". With those heavy bullets the lever needs to be opened "smartly", without being so smart that it gets bent at the bottom of the throw. Being some heavier, the hammerheads won't back out of the mag tube as fast as the shorter lighter loads. You need to give a heartbeat hesitation at the extension of the throw to allow the round to feed completely onto the lifter.

Try it and see if it corrects the problem. Otherwise it could be a timing issue or a burr or a slightly out of spec cart stop, or even a hangnail at the mouth of the magazine. I've seen a receiver screw project up into that area.

Hope that helps,

Grizz

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:02 pm

A Marlin will cycle a pretty long round, in fact it will cycle and chamber a lot longer round than it will eject unfired. If he's using
Garrets, I would be shocked if they jumped crimp. I'm curious if they did or not. Hell, they're only 35,000psi or something anyway. I've got a number of various loads way over that that dont jump crimp ever. So, I think he has some other problem.