I'm gaining a lot of respect for the .45 Colt

lazarus870 · Post by **lazarus870** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:08 pm

Even though I do call it the .45 Long Colt!

I impulse purchased a Marlin 1894 Cowboy Competition in .45 LC for a darn good price.

After seeing posted velocities online and muzzle energies compared to .44 rem mag, .45 LC seems very lackluster.

But there is definitely more to the story than those numbers, because it seems like those big .45 LC slugs plow through deer like nothing and have a great reputation for penetration (despite the seemingly slow velocity).

I thought this old round was not going to be fun compared to my .44's or .357's....I guess I was wrong.

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:27 pm

lazarus870 wrote:Even though I do call it the .45 Long Colt!

I impulse purchased a Marlin 1894 Cowboy Competition in .45 LC for a darn good price.

After seeing posted velocities online and muzzle energies compared to .44 rem mag, .45 LC seems very lackluster.

But there is definitely more to the story than those numbers, because it seems like those big .45 LC slugs plow through deer like nothing and have a great reputation for penetration (despite the seemingly slow velocity).

I thought this old round was not going to be fun compared to my .44's or .357's....I guess I was wrong.

And if you handload, or buy boutique ammo, it will really wake up.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:00 pm

Check out John Linebaugh's .45 Colt articles listed on this website..
I have worked up and tested virtually everything he describes, and moreso..
The old .45 war horse is a potent round indeed..
In the right guns, it will make the .44 mag want to go sleep in the shade..

piller · Post by **piller** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:16 pm

While I have only a little experience with the .45 Colt, mostly in a Ruger Blackhawk, I am a fan of it with 300 grain bullets moving at a modest velocity. They punch deep into whatever they hit. I have also used 325 grain bullets in it. They go through every animal I have shot with them. Not one recovered. The bullets that is. The animals all were recovered.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:30 pm

About the only thing I can think of that is disappointing about the 45 Colt versus 44 Magnum is that they don't make a Desert Eagle in 45 Colt...

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:34 pm

AJMD429 wrote:About the only thing I can think of that is disappointing about the 45 Colt versus 44 Magnum is that they don't make a Desert Eagle in 45 Colt...

Let's see... .452 holes vs. .429? Oh my GAWD, give me .452 every time! Ruger type loads out of the Marlin 1894 or Winchester 1892 are like little hammer of THOR! But... I'm rather a big fan of the .53 Hawken...

lazarus870 · Post by **lazarus870** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:38 pm

piller wrote:While I have only a little experience with the .45 Colt, mostly in a Ruger Blackhawk, I am a fan of it with 300 grain bullets moving at a modest velocity. They punch deep into whatever they hit. I have also used 325 grain bullets in it. They go through every animal I have shot with them. Not one recovered. The bullets that is. The animals all were recovered.

How about in 250 gr range? I shoot 240 gr .44 rem mag out of my 1892's with is technically .2 or so smaller than .45 right? But it seems like .45 Colt is often going considerably slower than .44 mag at those bullet weights (250 gr 240 gr).

I guess what i'm asking is...can the bigger size of the .45 compensate for it moving a lot slower (generally) or does it mostly have less power than .44 mag?

Is the .45 LC advantage in the 300+ gr range only mostly when compared to .44?

I honestly do not know so I'm curious.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:40 am

I shoot 405gr from my 44mag, it penetrates right up there with 45/70/405 at the same velocities naturally. 45 Colt would fall into the same general category with 405gr.

lazarus870 wrote:
piller wrote:While I have only a little experience with the .45 Colt, mostly in a Ruger Blackhawk, I am a fan of it with 300 grain bullets moving at a modest velocity. They punch deep into whatever they hit. I have also used 325 grain bullets in it. They go through every animal I have shot with them. Not one recovered. The bullets that is. The animals all were recovered.
How about in 250 gr range? I shoot 240 gr .44 rem mag out of my 1892's with is technically .2 or so smaller than .45 right? But it seems like .45 Colt is often going considerably slower than .44 mag at those bullet weights (250 gr 240 gr).

I guess what i'm asking is...can the bigger size of the .45 compensate for it moving a lot slower (generally) or does it mostly have less power than .44 mag?

Is the .45 LC advantage in the 300+ gr range only mostly when compared to .44?

I honestly do not know so I'm curious.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:49 am

Given the same construction, and weight a .430 should penetrate deeper than a .45 due to SD....

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:57 am

BlaineG wrote:Given the same construction, and weight a .430 should penetrate deeper than a .45 due to SD....

yeah, and have a smaller rainbow, Heh. but I wonder what the practical meplat on meat comparison test would show.

a flat meplat 44 mag 320gr hard cast from a handgun will thru penetrate venison just about every time, and the TKO value increases rapidly with weight.

GO CUBS GO

Richardx · Post by **Richardx** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:14 pm

Grizz,

Now you have given me a challenge, I am going have try 405gr pills in .45 Colt!
Boom Boom!

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:15 pm

If you load the .45 to the same pressures as the .44 of course the .45 will exceed it in power. Larger case and bore volume. Regardless of bullet weight. Apples to apples the .44 will out penetrate as it's a bit smaller, but in the real world it's not easy find (in game) a target that will stop either bullet.

Both are extremely capable rounds.

Cat

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:30 pm

Always surprises me that folks think the .45 colt, even in it's original USA loading is only sufficient for humans and thus not sufficient for things like deer.

One of the uses for which the .45 colt was designed was to shoot cavalry horses. Shoot the horse and it goes down, and so does the rider. With luck the rider will be seriously injured or killed. Horses are a much bigger target than a man.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:42 pm

Richardx wrote:Grizz,

Now you have given me a challenge, I am going have try 405gr pills in .45 Colt!
Boom Boom!

Glad to help. Everyone I know who trys it likes it.

Please let us know how that goes, there are plenty of guys around who haven't done this. It's a hoot and it's been surprising to me to see what actual downrange performance is.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:48 pm

Catshooter wrote:If you load the .45 to the same pressures as the .44 of course the .45 will exceed it in power. Larger case and bore volume. Regardless of bullet weight. Apples to apples the .44 will out penetrate as it's a bit smaller, but in the real world it's not easy find (in game) a target that will stop either bullet.

Both are extremely capable rounds.

Cat

they are in fact extremely capable rounds.

however, I'd submit that most if not all colt saa and clones cannot bear the pressures that 44 mag is designed for.

and I've proven that some loads, with some bullet weights, at some velocities penetrate much better than the same at higher velocities. don't know if I can find the video, but it is an eye opener. Blaine and Fred were there and saw some of the tests.

a good way to compare loads is the Taylor Knockout, or TKO. I don't recall the formula, but for the shooting I've done it is very appropriate.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:54 pm

jeepnik wrote:Always surprises me that folks think the .45 colt, even in it's original USA loading is only sufficient for humans and thus not sufficient for things like deer.

One of the uses for which the .45 colt was designed was to shoot cavalry horses. Shoot the horse and it goes down, and so does the rider. With luck the rider will be seriously injured or killed. Horses are a much bigger target than a man.

I agree with this. In fact, the English long bow was designed for the same purpose. BUT, that 45 Colt load, and the 45 ACP that had the same job desctiption, are low velocity and moderate pressure. At that time it was not the fashion to try to duplicate rifle performance in pistols.

It has taken the 454 Casul to extend the 45s into rifle type performance. Not that there is anything wrong with that!

I think 45 Colt is a wonderful thing. It's just old fashioned, like me, and fat, and slow, like . . .

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:00 pm

Absolutely Grizz. The old Smith model 25s can't take the full pressure loads either.

For those that can, though . . . oh my. A load like that in a rifle really wakes up.

Cat

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:34 pm

I haven't ever shot a 45 colt rifle but had a Ruger that I wish I still had! I notice that in a strong rifle with 300 gr bullets it gives up very little to the great 45/90 when it was loaded with black powder.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:40 pm

EdinCT wrote:I haven't ever shot a 45 colt rifle but had a Ruger that I wish I still had! I notice that in a strong rifle with 300 gr bullets it gives up very little to the great 45/90 when it was loaded with black powder.

Around 23 +/- grs of H 110 under a 300 gr bullet does that.

Joe

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:26 pm

Several years ago my grandson in Texas shot a 200 pound hog with a 92 Hartford 20 inch carbine in .45 Colt. He was using some of my reloads of 7.8 grains of Unique and a 255 grain swc. The bullet went through both shoulders and was not recovered but the hog was DRT. I reckon a .44Mag would have killed him a lot deader quicker.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:15 am

Reckon you're right Jerry, and that should clinch it.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:40 am

JerryB wrote:Several years ago my grandson in Texas shot a 200 pound hog with a 92 Hartford 20 inch carbine in .45 Colt. He was using some of my reloads of 7.8 grains of Unique and a 255 grain swc. The bullet went through both shoulders and was not recovered but the hog was DRT. I reckon a .44Mag would have killed him a lot deader quicker.

Well, it's a good thing that the beast was only 200lbs....

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:51 pm

You could ask the boys who were on the Grays River in Wyoming that one June. We were shooting a ways across into an old log cabin .. it was more than a quarter mile if I remember correctly .. 44's and 45's and some 475's and 500's. The logs did not stop the "smaller" calibers from entering the cabin. Anyone inside would have had a bad time of it.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:23 pm

JimT wrote:You could ask the boys who were on the Grays River in Wyoming that one June. We were shooting a ways across into an old log cabin .. it was more than a quarter mile if I remember correctly .. 44's and 45's and some 475's and 500's. The logs did not stop the "smaller" calibers from entering the cabin. Anyone inside would have had a bad time of it.

Didn't Mike V. write an article about that a very long time ago?

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:27 pm

JerryB wrote: I reckon a .44Mag would have killed him a lot deader quicker.

Please. It's "deaded" and "quickerest".

I mean really. Some people's kids.

Cat

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:37 pm

BlaineG wrote:
JimT wrote:You could ask the boys who were on the Grays River in Wyoming that one June. We were shooting a ways across into an old log cabin .. it was more than a quarter mile if I remember correctly .. 44's and 45's and some 475's and 500's. The logs did not stop the "smaller" calibers from entering the cabin. Anyone inside would have had a bad time of it.
Didn't Mike V. write an article about that a very long time ago?

Not sure. I know John Taffin wrote it up. He and I were shooting together with our mutual friend Keith Owlett. Keith was shooting a 44 Mag. I used my Ruger 45 Colt. I think John may have been shooting the 500 Linebaugh. The boys from Freedom Arms were there with a bunch of their armament ... and there were quite a few others.

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:59 am

If you want to get a .45 Colt caliber firearm, it will do the job. Whether you load it to Ruger and modern model 92 rifle pressure or not, it can still get the job done. The heavy bullets at modest velocities have a lot of verifiable proof of their effectiveness. I like my Ruger in .45 Colt, and I like my Ruger in .44 Magnum. Both are great guns in great calibers. Deciding between them is sort of like figuring out if brunettes or redheads or blondes are prettiest.

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:35 pm

I quite agree. And it's been getting the job done for a long time now too.

Cat

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:39 pm

I could bore everyone to tears with My experience with the .45 colt . I am far from an expert. It's been 43 years since I got My copy of "Sixguns By Keith" . Like Buck said look at what John Linebaugh has written about the Colt.
I am convinced that if Ruger had been around in the early 1930's the .44 magnum may have remained the .44 special . The .45 keith would have been written up in all the shooting magazines.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:29 pm

Let's not forget that Elmer Keith also invented the .357 Magnum which, after it's introduction, went hunting all over the world against dangerous game. He was known to quip in his later days that the 357 was, in some ways, superior to the .44 magnum. The .45 Colt cannot exceed the .44mag until used in special 5 shot cyls.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:29 pm

Well that is not true. A Ruger can throw a 360 at the same velocity as the 44 Mag can throw a 265 as per Lyman 46. Of course we are using Cowboy Tutt 45s which according to Paco are still operating at less pressure than a 44 Mag.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:50 pm

Ross Seyfried wrote extensively on the tweaking the 45 Colt to >than .44 mag, but it was done with 5 shot cyls....I'm willing to be convinced otherwise by seeing some facts, and figures. A 265 grain is awfully piddling for a .44 mag. Grizz loads 405s. They penetrate about as good as some 45-70 loads I've seen him test....If you take the Redhawk, or Blackhawk the .44 has more metal around it ergo more pressure handling ability.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:50 pm

In the original .45 Blackhawks and Vaqueros, it was no trick to outdo the .44 mag.
I fired some 50,000 psi plus loads through my Vaquero, and in a rechambered/rebarreled Super Blackhawk, with no I'll effects, both of them six-shooters.

When comparing bullets between the two, ignore weight and go for equal sectional density and similar nose profiles.. That will give you a truer picture.

The "modern" .45 Colt is everything Elmer wanted the big .44 to be, and then some..

BTW: my .45-caliber Beretta Stampedes - with slightly larger cylinders than the old Colts - have digested thousands of .44 mag - equivalent loads without a hitch..

I'm seeing far too much speculation in this thread, and not enough experience..
Just sayin'...

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:00 pm

Bingo, we chronographed Tutt's load out of his 5 1/2' Ruger SS Bisley 5 1/2".

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:09 pm

In 1959 I sold my Ruger .44 mag to my cousin when I bought my Colt SAA 5 1/2 inch .45. I never regretted that, still think I got the best of the two.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:10 pm

I'm seeing far too much speculation in this thread, and not enough experience..
Just sayin'...

Yes, indeed.....Thanks for the insult.

I hope some new guy don't try to duplicate that "stuff" and blow up his gun. Most people should stick to published loads. They will take those 50,000+ psi loads right up until the time they don't....Yep, Them SAAMI guys just don't have the experience, do they?

Since I don't have that experience, I'll stick to Seyfried's experience with his 5 hole .45s....And, Boy, look at them stupid peeps at Freedom Arms. Making all them five shot .45s and 454s. They must not know "stuff", huh?

bigboredad · Post by **bigboredad** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:55 am

I bought my first 44 mag Ruger super Blackhawk when I was 18 and for the 12 years did my very best to wear it out. Shooting nothing but 250gr xtp's til I discovered the 300gr xtp's with lots of h110. Then I bought a donation .45 colt after shooting it for a month close to 2500 Rds. I sold all but one 44 at the time I had 6 Ruger all in different configurations. Since them I have been impressed every time I try a different bullet weight or different load. I have shot lots of Ruger only loads and in the last couple years lots of cowboy loads. I come to really appreciate a 300gr bullet loping along at 900-950fps they are lasers accurate easy on the hand and have plenty of penetration. I recently picked up a braztech and have only begun to test it out but can't wait to see what it will do

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:17 pm

I have three revolvers in .45 Colt. With those I can do anything I want, no need for a 44 Mag.
Should I so desire I can buy or load ammo for my Ruger Blackhawk that exceeds the performance of the .44 Mag. And the pressures do not come any where near 50K PSI.

But, with the performance that the big flat nose of the Keith bullet and others give, why give myself tendonitis with the heavier and sharper recoil of the .44? No need for that.

Like .45colt and others I've been shooting the .45Colt for many years, I'm pretty convinced of it's capabilities.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:52 pm

Various manuals publish Ruger only loads at about 30,000 CUP that meet or exceed their published 44 Mag loads depending on what characteristics you want. The .44 is never going to match the .45 in projectile weight capability, cross sectional area, or meplat size. Those may be more important as they both have more than adequate penetration. Then of course if you want 6 shots for even heavier loads there are the Redhawk and Super Redhawk.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:01 pm

Old Savage wrote:Various manuals publish Ruger only loads at about 30,000 CUP that meet or exceed their published 44 Mag loads depending on what characteristics you want. The .44 is never going to match the .45 in projectile weight capability, cross sectional area, or meplat size. Those may be more important as they both have more than adequate penetration.

Absolutely. I only load my .44 mag to about 1000fps using Blue Dot, and 300 grain hardcast. I was a tad snarky before, but, it was about those 50,000psi loads. I"m going to firmly hold to my "opinion" that in stock weapons, one should not exceed what the weapon is designed for. Elmer blew up dozens of shooters, remember? Many a Ruger was sacrificed to the Gods of The .454, as well.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:04 pm

The original discussion here had to do with the .45 Colt in a Marlin rifle and had nothing to do SAAMI restrictions for weaker guns. Marlin or Rossi rifles will easily handle Ruger level loads.

But again, the reloading manuals have loads for Ruger .45 Colts that meet or exceed .44 Magnum performance in six shots cylinders.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:29 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Old Savage wrote:Various manuals publish Ruger only loads at about 30,000 CUP that meet or exceed their published 44 Mag loads depending on what characteristics you want. The .44 is never going to match the .45 in projectile weight capability, cross sectional area, or meplat size. Those may be more important as they both have more than adequate penetration.
Absolutely. I only load my .44 mag to about 1000fps using Blue Dot, and 300 grain hardcast. I was a tad snarky before, but, it was about those 50,000psi loads. I"m going to firmly hold to my "opinion" that in stock weapons, one should not exceed what the weapon is designed for. Elmer blew up dozens of shooters, remember? Many a Ruger was sacrificed to the Gods of The .454, as well.

Actually the sectional density of the .44 will be higher than a .45 bullet of the same weight. But... I was looking @ Hodgdon's site last nite for some data on why I think the 45Colt is the better cartridge and found for either cartridge to push the 240gr JHP over 1500fps, the 45Colt does it with 6,000 less CUP! To me, that's significant. I still ain't puttin' that load in my SAA or 1873, but the 1892 Rossi or Browning 1885 will gobble those up! I still need to check to see what velocity I'm getting out of my guns.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:30 pm

Old Savage wrote:The original discussion here had to do with the .45 Colt in a Marlin rifle and had nothing to do SAAMI restrictions for weaker guns.

IIRC, Mr. Savage, you had no problem going along with the thread drift until I puffed a little wind in your face.

I only dabble in reloading. Nowhere near the experience of most. But, I've been dabbling since 1969, and know full well that the first rule is to use published loads, and start those about 10% of the recommended max. Nobody should want Little Billy DumAzz to tell his lawyer that his firearm blew up because of stuff he read on this site. Throwing out there 50,000+psi loads for six shot shooters is not a good idea.

This was my first comment on this thread. It's a true statement. It has no bearing on the dangerous claims of what some would do in their loading rooms.

Given the same construction, and weight a .430 should penetrate deeper than a .45 due to SD....

Penetration. Not Knockout, or FPE, or what Uncle told you once after a sixpac.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:34 pm

Thread drift is just a normal fact on these forums, so is coming back to the original point. I have been on both sides of the coin many times and so have most here. Correcting incorrect information is also a fact.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:37 pm

I've always liked the cartridge - especially since I am somewhat into Holy Black.

The only reason I went .357 is because I wanted a reasonably sized carry gun to match my cowboy assault rifle.

I'm having major cognitive dissonance about it now (since I rarely carry the SP101 any more), but still...

I'd have to get a new NKJ Rifle and a new wheelie.

Maybe if one of the jobs I'm working on pay off.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:40 pm

Old Savage wrote:Thread drift is just a normal fact on these forums, so is coming back to the original point. I have been on both sides of the coin many times and so have most here. Correcting incorrect information is also a fact.

Correcting incorrect information is also a fact.

Yes, indeed.....I hope I didn't hurt your feelings doing so.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:06 pm

Just technical details for those interested, asking and wanting to know. No need to make more out of it than it is.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:34 am

To add another 2bits worth, the only things I worry about when shooting Ruger level or better loads in my Win 94 AE Trapper and Marlin 1894 Cowboy, is COAL and how much abuse I want to subject my shoulder to today.

The heavier loads I shoot are all in the 30K PSI category with heavier than normal bullets and in the light weight Trapper they can be painful. The Marlin with it's 20" octagon barrel isn't quite as bad but it's still a lightweight.

Joe

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:00 pm

Old Savage wrote:Just technical details for those interested, asking and wanting to know. No need to make more out of it than it is.

You're right, of course. I apologize. How silly of me to consider safety first when reloading.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:10 pm

The industry has moved on from the limitations for Colt, Colt clone and similar size guns such as the New Vaquero. Ruger makes three revolvers that use six shot cylinders and can handle Ruger only type loads for .45 Colt loads. Seyfried was going much higher than the 30,000 CUP of the Ruger only loads. The .454 also uses much higher pressures.

The .45 Colt in a revolver requires knowledge of what loads are appropriate for which guns but it does not require a five shot cylinder. Biffalo Bore makes factory rounds that should not be fired in Colt size guns of traditional manufacture so discretion is necessary for more than reloading in cartridge selection. Rifles too require care in selection as the 1873 may not take the pressures the 92s, 94s and Marlins can.

But considering industry standards on Ruger only type loads, the .44 Magnum no longer holds an advantage on the .45.Colt.